Cinder55 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 My wifes 91 Legacy just won't start. This may be unrelated but I figure i'll give you the full backstory here. I live in interior Alaska and it got pretty cold last week. The wife took the car up to the convienence store and she noticed the heater blower wouldn't turn on. So I began to troubleshoot it and temporarily ran a positive wire directly from the battery to the fan's power input. And ran another wire to a chassis ground close to the fan. This solved that issue long enough for me to run and pick her up and still have heat. Disconnected all wires once we got home and plugged the car in and went to bed. It got down to -25f that night but it has never had an issue in the cold previously. It has a great winterization kit on it. Over the next couple of days the engine cranks over just fine but she just won't fire. Went and got some fresh gas and a bottle of HEAT (gasline antifreeze agent commonly used up here in Alaska) and slapped it in the tank thinking maybe I was either low on gas (gas guage as never worked since we owned it). Out of maybe a dozen attempts to get it to start the engine only ever seemed to "sputter" or fire twice. So I thought it was getting spark; but maybe fozen fuel lines or some such. Soooo here I sit trying to troubleshoot this problem in super cold temps and I'm not quite sure where to start. I'm trying to setup a game plan for tommorrow to try and get this resolved for her. I'm no subaru expert as this is the first subi i've ever owned. What should I be checking here? 1) I figure i should pull a spark plug and see if it's wet with gas and then ground it to the engine block and turn over the engine to see if it sparks 2) I need to check fuses on driver side kick panel... (how does that little black box open anyways. It's super cold and all the plastic is brittle and I don't want to break anything) I've already checked the fuse box under the hood and they all look good. 3) Where's the fuel pump located on this vehicle? I should hear a whirring with the ignition on correct? 4) Obviously this is a fuel injected vehicle if i wanted to squirt a little gas in the engine to see if it will fire where would i go about doing this? Airbox? Any suggestions on troubleshooting would be highly appreciated. Thanks in advance for all your help! -Christien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 pull the plug boots and spray them out with wd 40. i had to deal with this onec on a 98 legacy sedan. I endd up replacing both cam and crank sensors, but for some reason, spraying the wire boots with wd40 did the trick. althoug i know of an ea82 that would do this when the temp was below 20 deg F do check for spark and start from there. maybe give the cam and crank sensors a wiggle. This advice almost makes no sense, but you never know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Any chance you can push this car into a heated garage, or at least wrapping the motor in an electric blanket? Difficult cars to start always respond better to warmer temps. I am thinking it is possible that the car ran out of fuel. Yes, you put fuel back in, but it is always difficult to start a car when the fuel lines have run empty. Perhaps squirt some ether in the air intake may help. It would be worth a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 The fuel pump will only run for a couple seconds when you first turn the key. Then it waits for you to crank the engine to continue running the pump. Under the dash on the driver's side there is a set of green and a set of black connectors that should be currently disconnected. Those are the self-diagnostic plugs. If you plug the green connectors together the fuel pump and the radiator fan will cycle on and off when you turn on the ignition. This is the easiest way to check the operation of the pump. Plug in the green connectors and turn the ignition to on (do not crank it) - you should hear the fuel pump relay clicking under the dash and you should be able to hear the fuel pump from the tank fill cap. Once you have verified you have fuel at the tank - check for spark. Pull a plug wire off the coil pack and hold it close to the where it plugged in while someone cranks the engine. You should see a hot blueish white spark jump the gap from the plug to the coil pack. Check all four wires - the coil pack has two coils in it. Another thought - check the plugs at the passenger kick panel near where the blower motor plug is located. One of those plugs contains the power wire to the fuel pump and it could have a poor connection, etc. You were just in that location so maybe moving it caused an existing problem to get worse.... GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 There was a TSB out for some soobs I think from that era, something about the fuel injector design could allow for condensation to freeze at the tips, resulting in a hard start/no start condition in low temps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder55 Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 I checked all the coils and i'm getting spark. I put the 2 green connectors together and the check engine light was just solid on; no blinking or codes being displayed. The fuel pump relay clicks under the hood; but I don't hear any whirring or fuel pump noise from the passenger side fuel fill location. Does this mean the fuel pump is not turning on? Is the fuel pump in the actual gas tank on these legacy's? I'd like to toss some gas in the airbox to see if it will fire; I noticed 4 screws; do I just pull those screws and lift off the airbox cover and squirt a 1/8th of a cup of gas in there? I don't have any ether but can go pick some up here in a couple of hours. It's -15f today so I can only do so much at a time before I have to come in and warm up. I'm going to go back out here shortly and check all the connectors on the passenger size kick panel area and make sure they are good to go. Is there anything else like fuses in the fuel pump circuit since the relay appears to cycle normally. I still can't figure out how to remove the black fuse box on the driver side kick panel under the "tray". Looks like there's clips on all 4 sides. Why subaru ever decided to put fuses and relays up in there is beyond me. There's absolutely no access to that area especially with gloves on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) I suggest you purchase a can of starting fluid and spray a small amount into the intake air duct. You don't have to take anything apart to do that. If the engine then tries to fire you know there is a fuel delivery problem. You stated the blower doesn't work and that may be related to the fuel pump not working also. A fusible link may be bad or a commom fuse is blown somewhere. It is a good idea to make sure that fuses are passing power by using a test light to verify power is getting to both sides of the fuse. It is common for folks to pass over a bad fuse the first time thinking it is good. You should be able to hear the fuel pump turn on briefly when turning the key to the RUN position. Edited January 8, 2012 by Cougar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder55 Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 Well i'm not hearing the fuel pump run; so what i just did was pull the fuel filter input hose and had the wife watch for any gas that would come out. I cycled the ignition several times and even tried to start it; surprisingly it tried to fire. But alas no fuel is coming out of the fuel line. So that indicates to me either the Fuel pump is bad or not getting power. I'm going to run to napa now and grab a fuel filer and fuel pump. Hopefully it fixes my problem. I'll use a volt meter to check for power at the fuel pump if i can find it. From searching online i just need to remove the rear carpet behind the rear seats and find an access hatch and open it. Should have access to the fuel pump and power connectors there correct? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I wouldn't replace the fuel pump until you have proven it is causing the trouble. I would suspect the relay is the trouble before the pump. Using a test light probe will show where the trouble lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Should have access to the fuel pump and power connectors there correct? Thanks! Yes, I am betting on a bad fuel pump. Lucky, you don't have much fuel in the tank. Low fuel makes it easier to change the pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder55 Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 I wouldn't replace the fuel pump until you have proven it is causing the trouble. I would suspect the relay is the trouble before the pump. Using a test light probe will show where the trouble lies. Unfortunately i don't have a test light. But i do have a multimeter. I figure i can get to the power connections once I get to the fuel pump and just test for power there. If there's power then the fuel pump is bad. If there isn't power then the relay is bad and I can just return the fuel pump. Am I way off base here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder55 Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 I need more information on this fuel pump location. I pulled up the carpet in the hatch of my wifes 91 Subi Legacy L Wagon. Saw both access hatches. Oval one on the right and round one on the left. The left panel has a 2 connector cable going to it and the one of the right has a 6 pin connector going to it. Both appear to be fastened with some 6mm or 8mm nuts onto bolts. Which side is the fuel pump on? If i had to guess I'd say the left one, as the replacement fuel pump I have has a 2 pin power connection going to it. Do I just remove the nuts and pull up to get this assembly removed? Again i'm no mechanic but have a decent amount of common sense. First subi i've owned and unfortunately I don't have a chiltons, haynes or service manual for this vehicle. Help!?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 The right side should have the pump on it. The other side ties to a second level sensor I believe. I wouldn't pull any covers off until you have confimed the trouble is with the pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Some info I have for a later model shows the colors to the pump are blk/red for power and blk for ground. Pins 1 and 4 respecively on the connector. The info also shows there is a couple of connections between the relay and the pump that could be causing the trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder55 Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 Some info I have for a later model shows the colors to the pump are blk/red for power and blk for ground. Pins 1 and 4 respecively on the connector. The info also shows there is a couple of connections between the relay and the pump that could be causing the trouble. Perfect!!! That's the info I needed to check if power is getting to the fuel pump. You da man! I'm done with it for the night but will get on it first thing in the morning and let you all know what i've found. Thanks again for helping a n00b get this resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 You're welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder55 Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Pins 1 and 4 are getting 10-12v of power with the green diagnostic connectors together under the driver side kick panel. Plugged power input back into fuel pump and fuel pump is deff not running. Soooo...I guess I just need to get this fuel pump replaced and my wife gets her subi back. Wish me luck! Woot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder55 Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Grrrrrr...two of the fuel lines came off without a hitch. The middle one won't budge...tried wd40...no go. Maybe a hair dryer on super low setting to warm up the rubber? EDIT: I don't think there's more than 6 to 8 gallons of gas in the tank but damn if the thing isn't leaking from the nipples. Took a break went back out to see a pool of gas sitting on the tank. Plugged the nipples and sopped up the gas. Guess I gotta drain the gas tank before going any further and let all the gas evap. So might be pushing this back to 2moro. Friend suggest soap and hair dryer to get that middle hose off. Obviously i'm not putting any source of spark or heat near that till the mess is gone. Something so simple as removing a hose shouldn't take fricken 2 hours...so frustrated! Edited January 10, 2012 by Cinder55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) This is one of the reasons why I suggested making sure the fuel pump was bad before opening things up. Have you tried using a couple of pairs of pliers and hold the tube with one set while twisting the hose with the other? You can also break the seal using a small screw driver and shoving it into the end of the rubber tube. Edited January 10, 2012 by Cougar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Dumb question, but did you release the fuel tank pressure by loosening the gas cap before starting? Any vapor pressure from the fuel can cause it to flow. Also it may be back siphoning from the fuel filter since that sits higher up than the pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
propane Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 what the other person said bout making sure it was the pump. I think you guessed correctly with the frozen (water in ) fuel line, that could have maybe taken out what was left of a high mileage pump. I would have tap- rapped the thing (top) to see if it was for sure dead. You are not the only one to struggle with the fit of the pressure hose, the one with the stainless clamp. The part II is finding that the hose is chewed up and is too short to stretch to make it work. So the hose outer cover is age deteriorated, pliers jaws will shred it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder55 Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 This is one of the reasons why I suggested making sure the fuel pump was bad before opening things up. Have you tried using a couple of pairs of pliers and hold the tube with one set while twisting the hose with the other? You can also break the seal using a small screw driver and shoving it into the end of the rubber tube. Yeah I've tried that; the hose will twist; just can't get it to budge off the damn nipple. I think it's just cause of the cold temps. That rubber is so tight. I'd kill for a garage right now. Let this thing warm up and my problems would be solved. But alas; working out in the cold in Alaska always makes things more complicated then they need to be. I did purge the tank by pulling the cap. And there was a nice air sound as pressure was released. I was honestly surprised there was a vapor lock there as the pump hasn't been working and i've already pulled the cap 3 or 4 days back. Not sure how the tank got pressurized again. Probably the warm up in temps i guess. The car is on an incline a bit as my driveway is sloped. It's not more then 10 to 15 degrees though. Probably just siphon 5 gallons of gas out of the tank and try again in the morning once everything is evaporated. Need to warm that hose up safely with what i've got on hand. Are we having fun yet?!?!?! grrrrr...... My logic is correct here with the fuel pump being bad correct? With the green diagnostic connectors together i hear the fuel pump relay clicking over; and i hear nothing from the fuel pump or feel any vibration what so ever even though i'm getting 12v of power on pins 1 and 4 for the fuel pump power connector. I hope i'm not wasting my time here; but I think my logic is all correct here. Correct me if i'm wrong... Again thanks for all the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Your logical conclusion sounds good to me. You could do a resistance check on pins 1 and 4 to see if the connection is open. If you are sure you are on the correct leads to the pump then the connection is either open or the motor is jamed. Some folks have freed up a jamed pump by reversing the polarity to the motor briefly. I think using the hair dryer to warm up the hose should work ok as long as there are no gas fumes in the air. Edited January 11, 2012 by Cougar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder55 Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) Just thought i'd post a quick update. Finally warmed up enough here to do some work on the Subi. Ended up borrowing a heat gun from a friend. 5 mins of heating those hoses on a low temp allowed me to pull that stubborn middle one off with just my fingers. Heat gun is the way to go!!! Now to replace the pump and put it all back together. Hope this fixes it! Edit: Napa sold me the wrong fuel pump. No way this thing will fit and replace the old one. Back to napa to return the pump; may be stuck going to he subi dealer locally and paying top dollar. Edited January 18, 2012 by Cinder55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbennett2u Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I dont suppose there are any junkyard subies up there? It is way easier to just replace the whole pump and sender unit in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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