BVickers Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Hello, I am new to this board and would like to ask for some help or ideas. I just purchased a 99 Legacy Outback with 2.5l and 196,000 miles. Car ran great except the temp gauge never moved unless in town. I decided to replace the thermostat. Upon removing the housing I found NO thermostat in place. I replaced it and now this is what happens; Temp gauge sets at normal operating temp unless driven or runs for 20 plus minutes. Then pegs out. The antifreeze and radiator are cool to the touch except the end by the upper hose. I have burped the system even using a rolaid to hold the new thermostat open till it warmed up. I have hot air from heater until the gauge starts to climb past normal, then it goes cool. There is movement in the overflow tank. No fluid leaking into the oil. I have read alot about these having head gasket problems. Could this be? Or could it be a bad temp sending unit? I have a 99 Subaru Legacy with 198,000 miles on it with a 2.2l and have had no problems with the head gasket. Any ideas what else to try? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3Pin Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Is the movement you refer to in your overflow tank possibly bubbles coming from the radiator? If it is, it is a HG problem. Have you flushed the radiator at all? It almost sounds like you have a clog somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bstone Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 What t-stat did you use? A Subaru OE t-stat or an aftermarket? If you used aftermarket then you used the wrong one. http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=128919 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3Pin Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 You need the right thermostat for sure, but the fact that it was not in there in the first place is really suspicious don't you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 get the HG test from the parts store. It checks for hydrocarbons in the coolant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Just to make sure: on these engines burping the cooling system is just a notch short of being an art. Did you look for instructions on how to do it correctly? From your description it sounds like you have a bubble in the cooling system. And yes... it's "suspicious" it didn't have a thermostat to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BVickers Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 I used a NAPA purchased Stant brand thermostat. I didn't know about only using a OEM one. I will go out and get one today and try it. Yes there not being one in the first place did make me wonder. Maybe they did the same thing, tried a non OEM and had same problems? I am getting a little "smoke" out of the radiator cap whole within 2 min of starting the car. It progressively gets worse the longer it runs. And if I cover the whole I start getting bubbles in the over flow. I am almost certain it is HG. Has anyone ever replaced these themselves? If so how hard is it? Has anyone ever tried that dura-seal stuff? http://www.seal-a-head.com/page47.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I used a NAPA purchased Stant brand thermostat. I didn't know about only using a OEM one. I will go out and get one today and try it. Yes there not being one in the first place did make me wonder. Maybe they did the same thing, tried a non OEM and had same problems? I am getting a little "smoke" out of the radiator cap whole within 2 min of starting the car. It progressively gets worse the longer it runs. And if I cover the whole I start getting bubbles in the over flow. I am almost certain it is HG. Has anyone ever replaced these themselves? If so how hard is it? Has anyone ever tried that dura-seal stuff? http://www.seal-a-head.com/page47.html WAIT! - do you still have the box? Or, on the receipt is there a part number? The reason I ask is, turns out the Stant that I was sent by RockAuto 'may' be the only t'stat that might be OK in subarus. Just discovered that recently. http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=128919&highlight=stant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike104 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I believe that car would have the DOHC engine that many recommend removing the engine to do the job. Its not an absolute requirement but some say you can get a better job by removing the engine: http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/99-do-yourself-illustrated-guides/33809-engine-removal-thread.html Here is a long thread about doing an HG job on a SOHC that is similar. http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/110-gen-2-2000-2004/31644-bought-overheated-2001-obw-gonna-fix.html The seller probably removed the thermostat to sell the car and they likely knew the HGs were blown, that's why they sold it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BVickers Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 WAIT! - do you still have the box? Or, on the receipt is there a part number? The reason I ask is, turns out the Stant that I was sent by RockAuto 'may' be the only t'stat that might be OK in subarus. Just discovered that recently. http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=128919&highlight=stant The box just says 110 on it. It is a NAPA box that says supplied for NAPA Dist. Centers by Stant Corporation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I am getting a little "smoke" out of the radiator cap whole within 2 min of starting the car. It progressively gets worse the longer it runs. And if I cover the whole I start getting bubbles in the over flow. I am almost certain it is HG. Your diagnosis sounds correct, those are tell tale signs of the exhaust blowing into the coolant. Normally the engine gets pulled for the head gasket job. Since it is quite possible it was overheated in the past, the heads need to checked for level, and if off, milled to the proper surface finish. Since it may have been overheated in the past, replacing the water pump is a good idea. So....it might was well get a timing belt kit while its apart and valve clearance check. I've seen write ups of doing the later SOHC heads without removing the engine but it looks tight, the DOHC would only be even tighter if it's possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 The seller probably removed the thermostat to sell the car and they likely knew the HGs were blown, that's why they sold it. Regretfully, I have to agree 100% with this comment I remember reading somewhere that the EJ25 doesn't take too well being overheated, and the main bearings may suffer in the process. If so, the engine may be a good candidate for a rebuild, not just HGs. Maybe the collective brain may touch this topic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike104 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Regretfully, I have to agree 100% with this comment I remember reading somewhere that the EJ25 doesn't take too well being overheated, and the main bearings may suffer in the process. If so, the engine may be a good candidate for a rebuild, not just HGs. Maybe the collective brain may touch this topic? I've heard the same thing about EJ25's throwing rods after HGs done assuming because of multiple overheats. Since the seller removed the thermostat its probably not a bad idea to think that the engine may have been overheated prior to the car being sold. I had to make the same decision a couple of years ago with my '99 having bad HGs. If you can do the work yourself, not a bad idea to tackle it for a few hundred dollars in parts. Paying someone else to do the HG job and the car throwing a rod a few weeks or months later would really suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BVickers Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 I am just wondering if it is worth putting the money into. I have $1400 in the car as is. I figure another $200 for HG Kit, $200 for TB Kit, $200 for machine shop, $100 for front TB Cover, $100 in incidentals. Mitchell calls for 10.2 hrs to replace both HG's. I can do the labor myself so that will save me. Car KBB's for $3800 in poor condition. I would rate this car better than average. Or I can turn around and run it thru auction and hope to get $2000 out of it. I have cleaned it up drastically since I bought it. Any input? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Hm....in considering to keep it or auction it...(I'm assuming it has auto trans). Does it have the slow to engage into drive issue with the the auto trans? If yes I might be hesitant to put all the time, effort and money into HG's. In which case auctioning it and maybe looking into a different soob might be tempting. Timing belt is sort of a wash, as in, it could very well need one even if the HG's weren't a problem. Also some of the '99s had some flaky speedometers/dashes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 a lot of miles on this car. You might consider a short block from CCRengines or ??? dunno how much money that would be though. If you have your eyes on a replacement vehicle, I don't think anyone could fault you for dumping this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BVickers Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 Everything else about this car is fine. No tranny problems or anything. It is actually a really clean car. Only reason I bought it was for use as a back up. I love my other 99 Legacy L and have had no problems with it except for the CATS. I really don't want to stick a whole lot of money in this thing. If it was going to be a daily driver then yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Well, if it's just a backup, how about just leaving the thermostat out like it was and driving it that way? It's not ideal of course, but as a backup it might work that way for a while. The problem usually just gets worse though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Well, if it's just a backup, how about just leaving the thermostat out like it was and driving it that way? It's not ideal of course, but as a backup it might work that way for a while. The problem usually just gets worse though. or easier than that, just loosen the vent screw on the top of the rad. this will allow the pressure to escape and slow down the loss of coolant. usually with it burped, from the start, and the fluid topped off regularly it will run pretty well for a long time. less chance of a cold lower rad hose and no heat inside since the the system vents the exhaust gas to the air. PS: does any one have any idea how large the opening is in a ''stock'' t-stat when it is wide open??? a plain flat disk with the correct size hole instead of a stock t-stat (or no t-stat) would give you good circulation all the time. this would reduce the chance of a ''cold lower rad hose'' condition, i think. it would also the engine to warm up, it would be SLOW to warm up but at least it would reach normal operating temp. i don't think a ''no t-stat'' situation will ever do that. my 90 nissan truck never did. it would get warm , but never normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BVickers Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 I think I am just going to re-sell it on the auction. Figure I don't need to put out another $1,000 on a stand by. Thanks for all the help... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3Pin Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Don't take this wrong and I don't want to sound like a wongleflute ,but I sure would be bitter if I bought it at auction for $2800 and then had to stick a grand or more into it. Selling to to some other subaru lover to get your dough out of it with full disclosure would make me sleep better at night. Just my 2 cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BVickers Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 I am running it right back thru the same auction I bought it at. I wasnt told anything and took a chance myself. If it was going to be a daily driver I would have no problem spending a grand on it. But not for a backup. I understand your opinion and respect it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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