Help! 1999 Subaru Outback in Distress! Clutch Pedal is Dead XP

[DirtyMech]

Hey all,

 

My 5-speed 1999 Legacy-Outback LTD Wagon just became inoperable due to a clutch issue. I purchased this car a month ago from a mechanic

(not one I necessarily trust to have been perfectly honest when selling me the car) who said he had recently replaced the clutch while replacing the

head gaskets, and explained this was why the clutch pedal was so tight (indeed, it gave a quick response up until today).

 

Well this afternoon, just after getting off the freeway from work, I noticed the clutch pedal was, once released, traveling to only about halfway to its

normal, non-depressed position, as was not disengaging the clutch unless I pressed it all the way to floor. Also,the reverse gear became more difficult

to shift into due to gear grinding that does not go away, regardless of how long I wait or if I previously engaged the clutch while stopped just prior to

making an attempt (which is what I usually do to avoid grinding the reverse gear). When I got home and examined the thing, I tried to pushed the clutch

lever back onto the slave cylinder to see if the clutch was fully engaged while the pedal was half-depressed. It popped back a tiny bit, and the pedal came

up to the normal position, but after that I tried pressing in the clutch pedal and it went all the way to the floor without offering resistance, and I could

therefore no longer disengage the clutch, rendering my vehicle immobile.

 

Now I don't have the proper manual for this vehicle (I have the Haynes manual for 1990-1998), but I suspect one of two things is happening here;

either there's something wrong with the pedal mechanism inside the driver's foot area, or there's an issue with the clutch's hydraulic system.

 

A visual examination of the hydraulic system uncovered no apparent problems; indeed I could not find a fluid leak under the car, any lack of

clutch fluid, any damage to the reservoir, master or slave cylinders, or the visible parts of the clutch line. This leads me to suspect there is a

problem with the pedal hardware. I have included pictures in the hopes someone might recognize something out of place.

 

I've just put over $5000 into purchasing this car and getting it legal and in good running order, and now it's NOT WORKING.

I'm seriously about ready to cry. If *anyone* has had this problem before or could help me figure it out, I'd be extremely grateful!

 

I can take additional pictures, perform additional examinations, or diagnostic procedures if suggested.

 

Thank you, USMB, and everyone for reading.

 

 

Pictures for Reference:

 

1. Pedal in Normal Position

 

http://oi39.tinypic.com/a4901.jpg

 

2. Pedal in the Stuck/Depressed Position

 

http://oi43.tinypic.com/23jqyqf.jpg

 

3. Pedal Spring w/ Pedal in Normal Position

 

http://oi42.tinypic.com/5l73g2.jpg

 

4. Pedal Spring w/ Pedal in Depressed Position

 

http://oi39.tinypic.com/ndv8sy.jpg

 

5. Pedal Pushrod (at near maximum length adjustment)

 

http://oi39.tinypic.com/zkfo8p.jpg

 

6. Clutch Reservoir

 

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2s0l4dv.jpg

 

7. Clutch Reservoir Open

 

http://oi43.tinypic.com/zl575z.jpg

 

8. Clutch Slave Cylinder Angle 1

 

http://oi44.tinypic.com/6z1yz5.jpg

 

9. Clutch Slave Cylinder Angle 2 (best angle)

 

http://oi43.tinypic.com/fmtouu.jpg

Edited January 28, 2012 by DirtyMech

[AdventureSubaru]

I'm guessing it could be a broken clutch fork. Any noises when depressed/released? I've you cane sometimes her stuff rattling around in there. Easier if you have someone to listen while you pump the pedal.

 

That fluid is pretty dark and gunky. it could be internal failure on the part of the slave or slave mater cylinder.

Edited January 28, 2012 by AdventureSubaru

[davebugs]

I didn't look at pics.

 

But often what's happened to me after pulling the enigne for HG or a 2.2 swap I swear something happens that often kills the slave cylinder shotly thereafter. They ar elike 60 bucks, easy to change, can be a pain to bleed.

 

Also FYI clutch forks do crack on these cars.

 

They the usual stuff like the TO bearing clips.

[davebugs]

Also a slave fails like sometimes a master cylinder does - they look normal but the rubber gasket inside is shot. They don't necessarily leak, they just stop wotking.

[nipper]

Can be a fork, but so close after a clutch I ma going tih the throw out bearing retaining springs failed. Sometimes people dont repalce these as they dont come with the clutch kit, but they must be replaced with a clutch.

[Fairtax4me]

The symptoms are typical for air in the hydraulic line due to a leak. From what I've read here most people replace the slave cylinder first when this happens and that usually fixes it.

I'd recommend replacing both the master and slave cylinder.

 

You can bleed the system for now and at least be able to use the car. It helps to have a friend to pump the clutch pedal while you close the bleeder screw on the slave cylinder.

[nipper]

Yes could be the clutch hyd. Always replace them in a set as it just makes life easier. Unbolt the slave cylinder how does the fork feel?

 

Sometimes what happens is the MC gets damaged after the clutch job if it is extended beyond its normal travel (IE pumping the system to flush). The cups travel farther then usual and tear on a little ridge inside the clutch MC. It doesnt happen often but it does. This will keep the pedal to the floor.

[DirtyMech]

Awesome, thanks for all the recommendations guys. I think I'm going to start by trying to replace

the master and slave cylinders first and pump the system; both together are $60 after tax from

Oreilly, and I'll get some brake fluid too, to clear that gunky stuff out out of the system lulz.

 

Dang whatever happened to a cable? I miss a cable clutch system. xP

[davebugs]

FWIW I've replaced lots of slaves, never a master.

 

And liek I said slaves can be a pain to bleed. Often with it unbolted and by manually pushing in the plunger helps.

[WoodsWagon]

Before buying a slave cyl, have a friend work the clutch pedal while you watch under the hood. If the clutch release fork is being moved by the slave cylinder, the hydraulics are probably fine. The pivot ball in the bellhousing wears through the clutch release fork until it cracks. Then the pivot ball punches through the release fork and the fork now does nothing. You can pull back the rubber boot where the fork goes into the bellhousing and look down in there with a flashlight to see how it looks.

 

Unfortunately if it is the fork, you need to either pull the engine or the transmission to get at it.

[lmdew]

I've had good luck bleeding the system, start by removing the old fluid in the master and then fill and bleed until clean fluid comes out the slave.

[hohieu]

Will the pedal behave normally after the engine has cooled? Failure mode with the clutch hydraulics on Subarus happen usually when the engine is hot -- so just getting on the highway and into stop 'n' go traffic will result in a hot engine bay.

 

The slaves usually wear out faster than the master, but I replaced the slave, and still had the mushy pedal until I replaced the master as well. Good luck.

[DirtyMech]

It's fixed! Replacing the two cylinders did the trick. I was very confused by the behavior of the clutch pedal when

I was trying to fix it though; it remained at the bottom of the push-stroke even after replacing the two parts.

 

And I had trouble flushing the system; I didn't realize that letting the pedal fall to the floor after pushing it a few times was the way to start

the bleeding process. It's very slow at first, but once you get a little pressure in there the pedal will spring back to the top of the push-stroke

as the clutch fork offers more resistance. Was able to do it myself, without a helper, by putting the seat all the way back and using a cinder

block to hold the pedal in place during the later part of the bleeding process.

 

Thanks again for everyone's help!

[nipper]

Always good to see, funny, there has been a few of these lately on several boards.

[DirtyMech]

Hey again all,

 

I replaced both the master and slave cylinder on my Outback, and while the problem has improved,

it has deteriorated again recently, less than a month after replacing both components. The clutch

pedal becomes soft at times that are hard to predict, at intervals that are fairly constant while driving,

and often will become stuck at about half-stroke. I often have to put the toe of my foot under the pedal

and push it back up, and generally it will regain its resistance for a moment until the same thing happens

again. I've examined the entire clutch system and found no fluid leaks, and I've bled the clutch system twice,

once with a cinder block for assistance and a second time with an assistant in the drivers seat. The clutch

pedal has been adjusted to it's maximal thrust since I replaced both cylinders, but has never felt quite as

tight and springy as it did prior to my initial clutch problems.

 

Both times I've bled the clutch system the fluid is replaced with fresh stuff but shortly thereafter becomes black.

Could this be dissolved/deteriorated rubber? I've read through previous posts and some seem to suggest this could

be a bad hose that's giving me problems. Is that possible if there are no leaks? Like the hose may be bulging at times

or something of that nature? If so and I should try replacing it, where would be a good place to get a replacement

clutch hose? Autozone/Oreilly/Pepboys don't seem to carry them. A dealer only?

[nipper]

A hydraulic hose can swell when pressure is applied and you wouldnt notice it. The hoses are a reinforced rubber, with some sort of woven material and a teflon liner. The liner can fail and allow fluid to get to the rubber and cause expansion.

 

Before you do that, are you sure the return spring(s) are working?

[Fairtax4me]

I would guess this is probably a dealer only part.

Does your car have one rubber hydraulic hose or two? There is a damper of some sort between the master and slave cylinder. On later models, looks like late 99 and on, the damper was moved and mounted to directly on the master cylinder. That's nice because there is one less hose to deal with.

 

I'm not entirely sure how the damper works, but usually it's just to limit the flow of fluid back into the master when the pedal is released.

 

Knowing that the fluid is coming out black after just a short time, I would suspect a faulty hose.

If it's bad enough you can see it expand like a balloon when the pedal is pushed.

[DirtyMech]

Ach well okay I guess it's a dealer-only hose I'm going to get. I'm pretty sure it's only one

hose, but I'll double check with the dealer. Will update y'all once I have the part installed.

 

I don't think I have a damper, unless it came as part of the master cylinder. The clutch

system seems to be composed entirely of the pedal assembly, master cylinder, a short

section of metal piping, a rubber hose, and finally the slave cylinder.

 

Oh and I also just examined the return spring. It doesn't seem to be damaged or disconnected

in any way. It's not strong enough on its own to return the pedal anyhow, which is obvious when

bleeding the system. Also, when the clutch becomes soft and I fully depress it, the clutch does not

always fully disengage, which suggests the return spring is not the problem.

Edited March 14, 2012 by DirtyMech

[nipper]

The spring sometimes can do it, but its primary function is to keep things from bouncing and rattling.

[Fairtax4me]

Ok if you have a metal line the damper is on the master cylinder, and you should have only one rubber hose. After looking at some photos it looks like the new MC came with a new damper, so hopefully that can be ruled out. There's only one other thing that hasn't been replaced, the hose.

I couldn't find a part number but it looks like its only $20 or so at a dealer.

[ivans imports]

The local dealer here informed me there is a recall for clutch peadal sicking somthing to do with slave and line to it. They say change both and i use dott 4 brake fliud seems to help. If the fork is broken it will twist little bitt when you push clutch

[DirtyMech]

Yes the hose and a couple metal ring-style gaskets were about

$30 at the dealer, a very good price considering the source.

 

BUT I installed the parts and there has been no change in my situation. I flushed the clutch lines again and

the problem is the same. But I think it may be the master or slave cylinder that is still giving me problems,

despite the fact that both have been replaced recently and here's why:

 

I have identified that the pedal goes soft when I press on it SLOWLY. If I push it down quickly it is much more

stiff, I am able to disengage the clutch with relative ease, and I do not lose pressure over time, although the

pedal is still not as stiff as it should be.

 

Doesn't that suggest that one of the replacement cylinders I got is a faulty part? What's your guys' opinion?

The parts I used are Oreilly replacement parts, were $30 a piece, and could have been remanufactured.

 

If you think it's one of the two cylinders, which one is it more likely to be? Keep in mind I have the clutch pedal

adjusted to it's maximal thrust position, right up to the end of the threaded shank coming out of the master cylinder.

That's the only thing that allows my car to be drivable; when it's in the properly adjusted position, I hardly have any

pushback from the clutch pedal at all; it's very flaccid.

 

The guy I bought the car from said he replaced the clutch himself, and I'd like to believe he's telling the truth and did

a good job of it...but who knows. It's the only thing I haven't checked yet. The clutch fork does have some play to it

when I'm standing there with the hood open; I can jiggle it back and forth just a little bit between the slave cylinder

and the transaxle housing, but not a ton. Should it be unmovable, or is that normal? It would be supremely helpful to know.

Edited March 17, 2012 by DirtyMech

[edrach]

The clutch fork does have some play to it

when I'm standing there with the hood open; I can jiggle it back and forth just a little bit between the slave cylinder

and the transaxle housing, but not a ton. Should it be unmovable, or is that normal? It would be supremely helpful to know.

With a cable clutch, a little jiggle is just right. I'd have to look at my Forester to see if a little bit of play is normal for a hydraulic clutch. I think it is normal since without any play at all, you might still have the clutch partially engaged which could lead to premature clutch slippage.

[DirtyMech]

Awesome Edrach, that's good to know about the clutch play, because mine definitely has some.

 

I talked to the guys at Oreilly (wish they had kept to calling themselves Kragen) and they are going

to order both parts for me as a trade-in for no charge. So after two new master and slave cylinders

it should be possible to narrow down what the hell is causing my clutch to work half-assed. The clutch

master and slave cylinder part numbers are CS2552 and CM1475, just for reference.

 

This problem has been hampering me for a long time, really hope I can resolve it without a clutch job...

 

HEY! By the way, does anyone have a quick description of the proper way to flush the clutch system?

I've got the Haynes manual for the Legacy up to 1998 but mine is a 1999 and apparently has a different

type of clutch system. The 1998 and earlier apparently need to have the front jacked up and the slave

cylinder is located at the bottom of the transaxle housing (the manual suggests)? Mine all appears to be

located at the top of the engine and is easy to access. The master and slave cylinder both have bleeder

valves, and I've been flushing it by doing the slave, then the master, then the slave again just to be thorough,

but perhaps there is something I'm missing? Probably not but thought I'd just throw it out there.

Edited March 18, 2012 by DirtyMech

[john in KY]

Just recently read an article about "remanufactured" MC and slave cylinders on another forum. Seems most "rebuilt" cylinders today on the market aren't really rebuilt. Just new seals and that's it. Cylinders aren't even honed so good chance either one or both of the new parts you purchased have pitted bores.