Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) The New Project Begins! My EA82 BumbleBeast has Disc Brakes in all Wheels, The front ones where Modified by Me and I had to Remove and Erase Completely the Front e-Brake to Solve the Front calipers' problems; as you can Read here: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=101883&page=7 Since then, I Wanted to install a Rear e-Brake System and as other forum Members, I Thought about to Swap the Complete system from a Nissan Sylvia (a.k.a: 240 SX or as Skyline) I Found the Numbchux's Thread about that Swap: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=63647 But I Really don't want to Mess with all that Cables, routings, Handle, adjustments, etc... I Removed all that e-Brake Stuff from my BumbleBeast, (along other things such like the Mechanic Fan and the Timin' belts covers) as you can see, here: Because I Like to Keep things Easy and Clean... That's why I haven't done that Nissan e-Brake retrofitting Idea. But I already obtained a New e-Brake Handle thinking on Doin' another Idea I Had: My Idea was to Modify it and Find a Way to connect via Cable the new Handle to the Hill Holder Valve, to use it as Hydraulic e-Brake; that was my Plan and I was doing the initial Studies about it, untill Today... A couple of Hours ago, a Great Friend who is finishing to Build a first gen Ford Bronco for 4X4 competitions, Showed me this interesting Thing that he obtained for that Car, to use instead the Rear e-Brake, so it works without Cables, handle, etc... it is called: The Brake Lock! He told me that if I Want to put one on my BumbleBeast, I only need to Attach it to the Rear wheel's Brake line and can be Placed in any Place such as the Original e-Brake handle place, using extensions; this Device works as Follows: Just Press the Brake Pedal and then Press the Button on the Device, it will Hold the Pressure on the Rear Wheels' Brakes, so you can remove your Foot from the Brake Pedal and the car will Still be Braking. To remove the Pressure, you just need to Pull the Button on the Device; everything Backs to Normal. It is somehow working like the Hill Holder, isn't it? Now is Questions Time! Does anyone here knew about the Brake Lock? If so, have you Used it, it is Secure? Could it be fitted Nicely onto my BumbleBeast's Rear Brakes Line? I Hardly believe it could be Placed on a Subaru, due to the Mixed Wheel's cross pattern action on the Main Brake Pump... But I'll Like to know what do you Think about the Idea; maybe it can be Placed to one wheel only. The only background information I have, is that the Thing was Designed by BugPack originally to be Used on a VW Bug. Any Idea / Information \ Comment, will be Welcome. Kind Regards. Edited February 11, 2012 by Loyale 2.7 Turbo to add the Web Link to the BugPack word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 More info, ~► Here Kind Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red92 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I would advise against it. What you have there would in no way work as an emergency brake. The point of an emergency brake is that it is a fully separate mechanical linkage, so that you can still have partial braking in the event of a failure of any component in the hydraulic brake system. Since this pressure lock uses and requires the full hydraulic system (the master cylinder to create pressure, the brake lines to contain the pressure, and the wheel pistons to hold the brake pads in contact with the drums/rotors), then ANY failure of the primary braking system would make this new system inoperable as well. :-\ In addition to not being an 'emergency brake', it also makes for a poor 'parking brake'. If you read up in the VW communities, there are numerous reports of these leaking and letting the brakes release, so it is somewhat risky to fully trust it to hold your car. When they leak, sometimes they even leak externally (brake fluid coming out around the knob, instead of just returning to the master cylinder), in which case you have made the situation FAR worse - you have lost brake fluid AND put a leaky piece into your primary braking system, at the same time while you don't have a secondary braking system! Personally, I would do whatever it takes to get a fully redundant mechanical emergency brake system put back in. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyeights Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I have used these on tow trucks for years and they are NOT safe for a parking brake - or anything else in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Here in the US (at least in Maine) doing this would be illegal. It states, very clearly, in the safety inspection manual that a car MUST have a secondary mechanical braking system. I suppose you could add this system if you wanted, as long as you still had a mechanical system in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykeys Toy Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I love the Idea Jeszek! I do also agree that it is not a viable option for an emergency brake and should still have the mechanical hand brake with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 OK, I Understand the Point about to Having two separate Brake Systems, the Main (Hydraulic) and the e-Brake. (Mechanical). But remember that those front e-Brake never were as Reliable as the Rear e-Brake found on other similar cars, even when the System was New... Maybe I felt that front e-Brake system very Weak, due to my Countrie's mountainy roads and wild angled Streets with very steep slopes. I use a Rock :-p (I always carry one with triangled Shape in my Subie since I removed the Front e-Brake) and I Turn the Wheels to the Sidewalk whenever is available... but Sometimes I Want something to Help my BumbleBeast to Safe Park on very steep slopes where there is No sidewalk. So, due to the Feedback given here, (which I Really Thank and appreciate) I Officially Dismissed the Idea of the Brake Lock Valve at all. Kind Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 So, Forget about the Brake Lock Idea... Let's Back to my Own Original Idea: What do you think about to attach the Hill Holder Valve to the e-Brake Lever Handle? ... So I Can apply pressure to the Brake pedal and then Pull up the Handle to Maintain the Pressure for a while, when I Need an extra Brake to Hold my Subie in Place when I do my errands. It could be a "Temporary Solution" because eventually... (when I can afford it) ...I will do the Rear e-Brake Swap from Nissan, as explained on my First post. Please, let me Know what do you Think about that. Kind Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 But remember that those front e-Brake never were as Reliable as the Rear e-Brake found on other similar cars, even when the System was New... What?!?! Absolutely Not! The front mechanical ebrake on EA82s work much better at making an emergency stop than most. And yes, the brake locks you're looking at (more commonly referred to as line locks) are not a good idea for anything but temporary use. Any hydraulic system will not hold the car for any length of time. I've seen electrically-operated line locks used in rock crawlers, great for holding the rig still for a minute while you hop out and have a look at your surroundings. Or even locking one wheel to help maneuver. The same principle goes for the hill holder. I would not trust it to hold the car for any period of time without me in it. IMO, Do it right (mechanical), or not at all. Having a system that will work just long enough for you to get far enough away from the car that you have no control, is asking for trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Thank you Numbchux, I Really appreciate your comments. What?!?! Absolutely Not! The front mechanical ebrake on EA82s work much better at making an emergency stop than most... I Agree and Disagree at the same time... let me Explain: You're Right about the Fact that a Front e-Brake is Safer and Better as an Emergency Brake, I Agree... You're Right. But my Point of View is not to use it as an Emergency Brake, but as Parking Brake to Hold the Car on Place. My Subie's front e-Brake (and almost all those models with Front e-Brake) had Failed to Hold the Vehicle on our crazy steep Slopes... The car tend to move somehow "Step by Step" one feet and stop, and repeat that every two minutes on Manual transmissions placed on the First Gear along the front e-Brake. Seems like the "Step by Step" Movement depends on the Engine's strokes when the Car's Weight, augmented by the Parking Angle, moves the Shutted-off engine, one stroke at the Time. That doesn't Happens whith the Automatic Transmissions' Models whith Shifter placed on "P". ...And yes, the brake locks you're looking at (more commonly referred to as line locks) are not a good idea for anything but temporary use. Any hydraulic system will not hold the car for any length of time... Yes, that's why I already dismissed the idea of the Brake Lock... seems like it was like Adding troubles to my Subie, instead of Solutions. Kind Regards. Edited February 17, 2012 by Loyale 2.7 Turbo mispelled word, Fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red92 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 IMO, Do it right (mechanical), or not at all. Agreed. Why invest any time at all fabricating something temporary and inferior, when you could have just put that time toward doing it right with a mechanical brake in the first place? Also worth considering - does anyone else drive your vehicle? If so, having an emergency brake handle that does NOT provide braking force, and which operates in a very non-standard way, could be a liability. And by liability, I don't mean you getting sued... I mean it as one of your close friends or family getting hurt in an accident because the brakes didn't work, didn't hold, or locked up when they weren't expecting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 ... Why invest any time at all fabricating something temporary and inferior, when you could have just put that time toward doing it right with a mechanical brake in the first place? ... Lack of Enough money to Buy All the Required Stuff to make a Rear e-Brake Conversion on my Subie. ...Also worth considering - does anyone else drive your vehicle? ... Not usually but sometimes my Father and my Wife... OK, Red92, you have a Good Point, so I oficially Dismiss my Crazy idea to make the e-Brake Handle to Operate the Hill Holder Valve. That's it. Period. Now I Will Focus on a Full Rear e-Brake Swap... ... I've investigated and there seems like Hyundai (elantra with Rear Discs) Could be a Great Donor too... ... But that, is another story Thank you. Kind Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red92 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Yeah, hopefully we don't sound too discouraging... but over the years, I've been through THREE brake failures in my vehicles, and it's a very scary thing to have happen. One time, I was in an old VW with the single-circuit hydraulic brake system, and a rubber brake line failed and the pedal just went straight to the floor, right as I was coming up to an intersection. I grabbed the e-brake and gave it a hard yank, and the car didn't stop until we were clear through the intersection. After that, we gave that car a full brake system rebuild *AND* gave the e-brake the adjustment it needed. Another time I was in a pickup, coming down a steep hill, and a metal line burst and I lost half of my brakes. I used the foot operated parking brake to help slow my descent, limped it onto a side street, and had it towed to the shop to have half of the brake lines replaced. Just a few months after this, I used the same truck to tow a moving trailer over the mountains - so I consider myself extremely lucky that the failure happened when it did. A third time, I was out driving a project car that had sat for a 6 or so years. I was bringing it home from a storage garage, only about 5-10 minutes of driving. The main hydraulic brake system needed a bleeding, and they were not really working as well as I would have liked, so I was using the e-brake to help if I needed to stop quickly. Well, one of the times I pulled it, one of the two cables snapped. Since the two cables had a balancer between them, when the one cable snapped it completely loosened the other and I had no e-brake. The joys of 40+ year old cars. I was very lucky that none of these situations ended in an accident, especially since I had passengers on the first. But these experiences have given me a great respect of brake system redundancy and the importance of keeping them maintained. Dual circuit hydraulic brakes and a well-adjusted mechanical brake are absolutely essential in my book. Good luck with the new setup, and be sure to keep us posted on how it all goes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonvo Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I use a Rock :-p best. parking. brake. ever. im dead serious if your wheels are chalked it aint going anywhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Interesting you've been having problems with the mechanical parking brake not working. Living in Maine, there are a lot of steep hills to park on. My driveway for one. But also driving it off road, stopping on something steep or off camber the parking brake is essencial to get out and have a look. With everything properly adjusted I've never had a problem with it holding on the steepest of grades, not even with a boat trailer. Yes, I use my GL to haul boats, sometimes almost as heavy as the car. And it will hold car and boat on a steep ramp. The only problem I've had with the front parking brake is not releasing all the way and dragging the brake pads. Took it apart and cleaned it all up. Never had another problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKghandi Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 How bout leaving the stock ebrake and then adding another handle next to it for a hydro lock up for the rear? You might loose that little compartment but oh well. Then you have the best of both worlds.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Yep, the town I live in is entirely built on a pretty steep hill. The Avenue right outside my house is on more than a 12% grade. I go pretty far out of my way to park on the streets (cutting across the hill) instead of the avenues (up and down the hill). I've never had a car with a functional parking brake move. The EA subaru ebrake uses the same piston and pads as the standard brake....it's just as strong. Keep in mind, the hill holder only uses one system. So only ONE front brake and one rear. It's not going to be any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivans imports Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 i put toyata pu front brakes on rear have big rotors and 4 piston calipers works good put them on my subaru mud dragster works so well was able to ditch the front brakes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyfun Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 The thing to do would be to leave the existing front parking brake system intact, and set up some sort of hydraulic line lock that works backwards. Rather than you having to press the brake pedal and then activate the line lock to hold the brakes, you activate the line lock to PREVENT the front brakes from locking, so when you push your brake pedal, only the rears get pressure. This would sure make it a lot easier to give the back brakes a quick stab while rallying around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyfun Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) OMG, I just had the best idea ever! Install a line lock solenoid for each individual brake. If you're in a situation where you're articulating or simply losing traction with certain wheels, you could activate those wheels' line locks to send the power to the other wheels! Manual traction control! Isn't that basically how ABS works, anyway? Edited February 17, 2012 by Cyfun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 OMG, I just had the best idea ever! Install a line lock solenoid for each individual brake. If you're in a situation where you're articulating or simply losing traction with certain wheels, you could activate those wheels' line locks to send the power to the other wheels! Manual traction control! Isn't that basically how ABS works, anyway? Look up "brake lock diff" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red92 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Look up "brake lock diff" 'Cutting Brake' as well. The cutting brakes were really popular with the old VWs, particularly the dune buggy crowd. They were just an extra set of handles, that would pull the e-brake cables one at a time. This let you lock up one wheel if necessary, to transfer the power to the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyfun Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Ya, I've been thinking about that, too. The problem is I don't know where I'd put all these brake handles. But if there were a simple electronic solution such as this, that would sure make it easier to install and use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red92 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Ya, I've been thinking about that, too. The problem is I don't know where I'd put all these brake handles. On the old VWs, they just piggy-backed the extra handles onto the main e-brake handle: (http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=454525) Or if you went hydraulic, they made ones that had a single-handle push/pull design that would sit above your existing e-brake handle: (http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=453595) But if there were a simple electronic solution such as this, that would sure make it easier to install and use. It would depend on what you needed. I just did some reading on the 'brake lock diff' that 987687 mentioned, and it looks like those can be some pretty sophisticated hands-off systems. But unless you have the ABS wheel speed sensors, I'm not sure that you could retrofit an automatic system like that without a lot of design work... Using line-lock solenoids also might not be ideal, as you have no ability to feather or modulate the braking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyfun Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Or if you went hydraulic, they made ones that had a single-handle push/pull design that would sit above your existing e-brake handle: It would depend on what you needed. I just did some reading on the 'brake lock diff' that 987687 mentioned, and it looks like those can be some pretty sophisticated hands-off systems. But unless you have the ABS wheel speed sensors, I'm not sure that you could retrofit an automatic system like that without a lot of design work... Using line-lock solenoids also might not be ideal, as you have no ability to feather or modulate the braking... Ah, I like those ideas of just attaching smaller handles to the existing one. Would mean destroying my tiny console, though. Another option would be to steal the mechanisms off of cars that have ebrake pedals. Then I could rig up a couple pedals on the left. As far as the line-lock method, I would go the route where I would prevent pressure from reaching the wheel or wheels with good traction, so when I press the brake pedal, I'm only braking the slipping wheels. Then I could feather the brake, slow the spinning tire just enough so that I send some but not all the power to the wheels with traction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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