Charging issue, warning lights on

[raymond338]

1980 subaru DL 1.6L ea71

 

Driving home from work the other day, almost all of my warning lights came on. The battery light, brake fluid light, parking brake light, brake lamp light. The oil pressure light goes off when the oil pressure builds up. The seat belt light goes out after a few seconds, as normal.

 

I checked to make sure my belt was in place, and then continued home.

 

I drove to work 5 or 6 more days and on the last day the car wouldn't crank. Fortunately I had thrown my old truck battery in the car that morning after an ominous feeling I had.

 

The old truck battery got me from work to the edge of town (about 60 miles) but I had to drive with the headlights off and tail other cars on the road so I could see, since it was about midnight.

 

I parked the car and have been driving my truck, but at 120 miles round trip per day the gas is killing me (Subaru = 31mpg Chevy = 14mpg).

 

I have days off this week (working graveyard) so am trying to get the car fixed. Since the alternator and voltage regulator are still factory original, I figured I'd throw on some new ones ($70). Still same problem.

 

My original guess was the iginition switch, but I don't know how these work. I have bypassed the start function on mine with a pushbutton because it only worked intermittently (I still have to turn the key on). I undid this yesterday and tried to start it with the key but it wouldn't do anything. The warning lights did flicker a little when turning the key all the way, just enough to tease me.

 

Does anyone know how to completely bypass the ignition switch? I'm not sure how the charging system functions.

 

Or are there any relays in the system that might be stuck?

 

Any other ideas?

 

I'd like to get my car back on the road. I got this car about a year and a half ago in very original condition with the exception of it having a new weber carb. Have repaired what has broken but no more than necessary (oil sensor x2, front main seal, clutch, pilot bearing x2, oil pump, water pump). She needs a rear strut, and a new tranny seal (I just don't want to pull the motor again yet), and the rear brakes leak. So its time for some love again, but I got to fix the charging system first.

 

Its only 2wd, but here in Charleston, SC, there isn't much need for 4wd unless you are out looking for trouble. I got the car with 124,125 miles on it, and now I am at 163,000 miles thanks in part to a cross country trip to see the Pacific Ocean and another up the east coast to NYC. And driving 120 miles a day to work and back. I miss driving my little subaru...please help!

[the sucker king]

It sounds like the voltage regulator, maybe the replacement one was bad. I have had them bad out of the box before.

Where did you find the VR? I can't get them from the dealer anymore, it was an ebay crap brand that I had bad from the get go.

 

Anyways use a multimeter to see what charge you are getting at the battery with the car running (if you can get it to run) and take it from there.

[the sucker king]

by the way what bobdy style is youe 80. I have had 3 X 80 hatches and I think they are very cool in that they were the first of their kind. Take a look at this thread and tell me if you have the fuse kit pictured in the first post. It was a recall item specific to 80 and 81 and mine does not work, don't know if I have it hooked up right:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=128864

[Cougar]

The first thing you should check is the fusible links and fuses to make sure they are ok. If they are good then you need to make sure that voltage is getting to the regulator and the alternator field connection on the back side of the alternator when the ignition switch is ON. Power gets to those areas through the ignition switch.

[naru]

1980 subaru DL 1.6L ea71

 

Driving home from work the other day, almost all of my warning lights came on. The battery light, brake fluid light, parking brake light, brake lamp light.

 

This is usually diode failure in the alternator.

Use a voltmeter to check for AC voltage AT THE ALTERNATOR w/headlights, fan, etc. on,engine at 2500 rpm.Should be less than 0.5V.

 

Bypass the ignition switch at its pink? 6 pole? connector under the dash.

[raymond338]

I got the voltage regulator from a locally owned parts warehouse. They had both the VR and the alternator in stock, they almost always have parts in stock which is why I go there. It is a "Standard" brand VR, I think made in Japan.

 

I will go and check the voltages today; it got to dark to mess with anymore last night.

 

The fuses in the fuse block inside the car are all fine. I am not aware of any fusible links on the car. Where would they be located?

 

The car is a 4 door wagon. I've got some pictures somewhere, if I find them I'll post a couple.

[naru]

Fusible links will be in a small plastic box very near battery positive.

[the sucker king]

Fusible links will be in a small plastic box very near battery positive.

 

 

Not on a 1980 model. On 80 and 81 and possibly 1982 as well, The fusible link is about 6 to eight inches down the wire from the possative terminal of the battery (it's more of an "in-line" variety). It is two insulated wires with a plastic connector on each end, about 4 inches long total.

[Gloyale]

Not on a 1980 model. On 80 and 81 and possibly 1982 as well, The fusible link is about 6 to eight inches down the wire from the possative terminal of the battery (it's more of an "in-line" variety). It is two insulated wires with a plastic connector on each end, about 4 inches long total.

 

+1 for the Fusible links

 

You'll probably need to make new using fusible link wire and solder.

[raymond338]

Found the fusible links on the positive cable, they tested okay with my meter.

 

Jumped the car off, then disconnected the jumper vehicle. Alternator is putting out 14.5 volts at the alternator. Also have 14.5 volts at the positive battery cable (with it disconnected from the battery; the car will run with either cable disconnected, I can hear the engine load increase when I reconnect the cable(s) so it seems to be charging).

 

I am getting 7 volts from the one small wire out of the alternator and 12 volts into the otherwire (on the two pin connector on the alternator), which is correct according to my paperwork.

 

I got 0.05 VAC at the alternator.

 

I let the car run the entire time I was messing with it, at least an hour or more, with the radio and lights on, and the cooling fan cutting on and off as necessary.

 

I then drove the car home (it was at a friends house). I cut it off downstairs and cranked it back up.

 

As far as I can tell, it seems to be charging the battery. But the alternator/battery light, the stop lamp light, the parking brake light, and the brake fluid warning lights are still all on.

 

????

[edrach]

Those warning lights almost always indicate a bad alternator (not interested in what part is bad; I've just always replaced the alternator when those symptoms appeared; fixed it every time).

[naru]

Check the voltage on the wire that goes from the regulator to the light.Don`t know what colour,sorry.

Low voltage or a grounded wire here will light those 3 lights,AFAIK.

[the sucker king]

Here is a diagram of the charging system from the 1980 FSM. You should find this useful. It's a fairly good quality scan, you should be able to blow it up.

 

[the sucker king]

Those warning lights almost always indicate a bad alternator (not interested in what part is bad; I've just always replaced the alternator when those symptoms appeared; fixed it every time).

 

His is an early gen 2 model with the external VR.

[the sucker king]

Check the voltage on the wire that goes from the regulator to the light.Don`t know what colour,sorry.

Low voltage or a grounded wire here will light those 3 lights,AFAIK.

 

The FSM has the black w/ white stripe marked IG, I believe if you read that cover sheet for the charging system it is the same circuit that runs through the IG switch that goes to the warning light.

[naru]

Looking at Haynes,it appears to be one of larger (1.25mm) wires at the reg.White w/red stripe.

[the sucker king]

Looking at Haynes,it appears to be one of larger (1.25mm) wires at the reg.White w/red stripe.

 

I checked the 80 FSM again and you are correct it is white with red stripe.

[raymond338]

Car is still going, battery appears to be charged.

 

There are three wires going to the positive battery cable: one large wire going to the starter, a white wire coming from the alternator I think and a black wire with a white stripe.

 

The black wire with the white strip does not have any voltage (before nor after the fusible link). Seems like it ought to since its going to the positive terminal.

 

I just saw the updated posts above (my screen did not refresh for some reason). I will take a good look at the scan above and check the voltage on the white/red wire in the morning/daylight.

Edited February 27, 2012 by raymond338
update

[raymond338]

I had 0.16V at the white/red wire with the keyswitch on. The same with the engine running.

I had to pull the VR off the fender to test it, so I went ahead and switched it out with the old one.

cranked the car, lights went out, no problems.

I'm guessing the contactor for that circuit was sticking, probably the part sat on the shelf for one too many decades.

 

I guess my alternator went out. I replaced both parts as recommended, and got a good alt and a bad VR from the parts house, LOL.

 

I exchanged it for another new VR which I'll try out tomorrow or the next day. Maybe I should just leave well enough alone, but that wouldn't be any fun now would it?

 

Thanks so much for all of your guys's knowledge and help!

[raymond338]

So I went to the store and exchanged the VR. Didn't have time (take time) to put it on.

 

Went to get in the car last night. Click, no juice.

Didn't have time to deal with it, drove the truck to work.

 

Just looked at the car. Put the truck battery in the car. Left the truck running and put the car battery in the truck. It loaded down, probably pretty dead battery.

 

Cranked the car, no warning lights. Checked voltage at the alternator: 12.5 on the big wire, 6.3/11.3 on the small wires. Doesn't seem to be charging, voltage is low.

 

Switched to the new VR. Cranked car. TA-DA! 14.5 volts at the alt. Feeling foolish for not having put it on sooner, I go to cut the car off. Key is off, car is still running. Try it a few times, car still running. Unplug the pink connector from the back of the ignition switch, car still running. Go unplug the VR main connection, car cuts off. VR is warm on the 'bottom'.

 

Put the old VR back on. Now I get 13.5-14.5 volts at the alt, depending on how much i rev it. Still in the 12's at idle. Turn the key off, car cuts off. Try cranking and killing it several times, checking voltage each time. seems okay.

 

Put the new VR back on. Crank the car. Getting 15 volts at the alt, then 17, then 19, then 20 (never seen that before! my battery will be charged in no time!). Go to cut the car off, at the key switch, doesn't cut off. Unplug the little black wire at the VR first this time (just by chance) and car cuts off.

 

So I guess this VR is no good either?@? Going to go try again, I guess, unless someone has a better idea. Standard brand VR, made in the USA. I'm beginning to think I should go to radio shack and build my own VR lol.

 

Just thought I'd update and also see if anyone had any better suggestions.

 

Ps. I think I was better off with the last 'new' VR. At least the car cut off, even though the warning lights stayed on while driving. Grrrrrrrr....

 

Pps. I wonder if my old alternator is good. Maybe the old VR was just acting up...I kept it to have it rebuilt, maybe I should test it...I just figured new parts would be a good idea after 32 years and driving 100+ miles a day on these old ones, but so far the new ones aren't working out too great.,.

Edited March 2, 2012 by raymond338
update

[heartless]

it is my very humble opinion that you should replace that battery - you have, by your own admittance, run that thing down so far that it will probably never take and hold a proper charge ever again. Take it in, get a new one - most places will give you a small discount towards a new battery if you bring in your old one for recycling - around here it is usually $5.00 - not much, but better than a kick in the pants.

 

this could be a great majority of the entire problem at this point...

Start with a fresh, new battery to go with the new alternator, and new voltage regulator and then see what happens.

 

just my humble .02 cents worth.

[ferox]

You might consider getting rid of the antiquated external VR and switch to the internally regulated alternator.

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=47847&highlight=alternator

 

I did this years ago on my '81 and it has been great, no problems. I also switched the in-line fusible link set-up of the 80-81 MYs to the 83-84 version which is a small plastic box that bolts to the spot where your external VR is currently located. You can probably find a decent used Nissan Maxima alt in a junkyard for cheap and get 90 amps of internally regulated goodness. Your car will run better, mine did.

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=100559&highlight=maxima

 

If you do this I also suggest, as heartless did, that you get a new battery or at least a newer one and make sure it is fully charged before you start the vehicle. Lots of people get "bad alternators out of the box" because they install it in a sometimes already compromised charging circuit and try to use it to charge a fully dead battery.

[naru]

Sounds like 3 flakey regulators,all w/different failure modes.

The OEM reg. was electromechanical w/contact points etc.Replacement ones should be solid state(hopefully).Seems like your replacements might have been old electromechanical regs. w/faulty contacts.

 

OEM electromechanical regs. require periodic adjustment of the air gaps etc.Perhaps your original one would work after adjustment.

I`d prefer a solid state version though.

 

I see no reason to believe an internally mounted regulator is any more reliable than an externally mounted solid state one.

 

I`m not buying the "throw a battery at it theory" either.

Symptoms don`t fit.

[ferox]

I see no reason to believe an internally mounted regulator is any more reliable than an externally mounted solid state one.

 

The first thing that comes to mind is that the externally regulated set-up has a lot more 32 year old wiring between the alt, battery, and regulator that is generally considered to have been undersized out of the factory. Additionally, there must have been a reason or reasons that external regulators went away.

 

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to help the op, but of the three ea81s I have owned and restored the externally regulated system did not perform nearly as well as the internally regulated system.

 

I`m not buying the "throw a battery at it theory" either.

Symptoms don`t fit.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting throwing a battery at the problem, so much as to make sure the battery is in adequate condition. I think you would agree that with a charging system every component has to be at a threshold of functionality for the system to work properly and not cause failures in other components. It is difficult or impossible to assess one component if the others aren't up to snuff, as the saying goes.

[raymond338]

okay, here we go again.

 

Returned the VR to the store for a refund.

Ordered another from a different store (Wells brand, though it looks identical).

 

Put the part on. Cranked it up. Car is charging 14.5 volts at the alternator, but the warning lights did stay on in the dash.

 

The bolts holding the unit to the fender no longer tighten down, so I thought maybe it wasn't grounding out properly. Jerked the VR around a bit.

 

Looked inside, warning lights off. Don't know if its a grounding issue or just the movement of it unstuck a sticky contact. Thought I could just run a ground wire to eliminate doubt.

 

Tried moving it around some more to get the lights to come back on. No success, lights remained off.

 

Checked all the voltages. 14.5 at big wire, 7 and 12 at the two prong connector.

 

Allow myself to feel immense relief after all of this frustration. Begin thinking about the wonderful post I will put up, full of clever remarks and witty comments about defective parts. Put away the tools and shut the hood.

 

Turn the key off. The car keeps running. I'm so fed up I don't even bother to curse. Unplug the little black wire. Car keeps running. Unplug the main VR plug, car shuts off. Shut the hood and get about the rest of my business for the day.

 

On a different note, the battery currently in the car is brand new, a couple of weeks old. I bought it the night my car didn't make it home so I could get home. The original battery I had in my car is only 15 months old, and I put it in my truck which has been running along fine with it.

 

I'll have to take some time and look at the internally regulated alternator swap. However, I believe that I should be able to fix this problem and run this car 32 more years with the current setup.

 

I think I will open up the VR and take a look at what is going on inside. My original thought was that there were contactors sticking, possibly from sitting on a shelf for decades since I don't imagine these parts are purchased very often, seeing as how I've never seen another subaru as old as mine anywhere near here.

 

My original theory on bad parts is getting shakier with every additional bad VR. But I also don't see how something else on my car could be causing this problem. Although this set of circumstances seems about par for the course when dealing with electrical problems.

 

Any reason I shouldn't drive my car as is temporarily? I plan to carry an extra battery just in case.

 

In actuality I have no choice but to drive the subaru to work. The seal between my hydraulic brake booster and my master cylinder finally went out in my chevy truck this weekend. It leaks power steering fluid out about as fast as I can put it in (and the power steering also powers my brakes).