Gear oil - mixed synth/non AND viscosity.Change now?

[tehP]

Hey gang,

 

Here's a two pronged bone-headed issue.

Car - 1996 Subaru Legacy Outback wagon. ~196k, on it's third clutch (i bought this car 1 week ago).

 

Long story short, a friend of mine was "helping" me work

on my new (to me) car last night.

He changed the transaxle oil.

I had a new bottle of Castrol synthetic 75W-90

as a "top off" bottle as well as the 4 bottles

of el-cheapo "Coastal" 80W-90 I bought at autozone last night.

 

TL/DR:

•Non-gearhead friend used

~2.8 quarts of non-synthetic 80W-90 cheap-o oil

and 1 quart of synthetic 75W-90.

That's what's sitting transmission right now.

 

Do i need to immediately drain this somewhat expensive

mistake and start over immediately?

If so, what make/model of gear oil would you suggest?

Or, i get away with putting a few miles on this current

setup?

The Castrol (synthetic) page says

"Fully compatible with all conventional and synthetic API GL-5 gear oils."

so there's that.

So I suppose my question REALLY becomes, is it okay that i mixed viscosity?

 

I don't use the car commute to work. Mostly city driving,….

 

The REAL kicker: the cheap oil's specs page says

" Limited Slip applications for top-off only." Did

Mr. AutoZone give me the wrong oil in the first place?

All of the numbers like "API GL-5" and "MT-1" are there on the

cheap oil's bottle.

 

I'm an idiot.

 

On the plus side, the car changes gears much better now

I'm confident what's in it NOW is better than what WAS in the car.

That ************ came out green and STINKY. ick.

 

Product pages for both of my oil types....

Cheapo Oil:

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Coastal-1-qt-80W-90-gear-oil/_/N-25t1?itemIdentifier=561712_0_0_

Castrol "Syntec" oil:

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=82915494&contentId=7036193

[1 Lucky Texan]

I wouldn't change it unless I experienced bad shifting.

 

Many folks use a 'cocktail' of 3 oils over at NASIOC with good results.

[tehP]

I wouldn't change it unless I experienced bad shifting.

 

Many folks use a 'cocktail' of 3 oils over at NASIOC with good results.

 

Wow, is that right?

I got all worked up like an idiot!

This is great news.

 

Lucky Texan, do you have a preferred brand/viscosity gear oil?

[1 Lucky Texan]

Wow, is that right?

I got all worked up like an idiot!

This is great news.

 

Lucky Texan, do you have a preferred brand/viscosity gear oil?

 

well, what you did may not be 'ideal' but hey, you swapped in fresh oil and should be good to go for quite a while. And if you have no issues with those weights in winter - you should be fine in summer.

 

I just put Redline Lightweight Shockproof in my wrx tranny and rear diff and my wife's outbcak's front and rear diffs(last spring I think). It seemed to slightly quiet some whirring in the outback's front diff. I haven't quite decided if I like it in my WRX - though I haven't detected any clashing or missed any shifts - it just feels different/notchy.

 

The stuff some folks use at NASIOC is called Scotty's Cocktail or Uncle SCotty's Cocktail if you wanna search for it.

 

As long as your synchros are working and there's no shifting problems - I'd leave it alone.

Edited March 1, 2012 by 1 Lucky Texan

[GeneralDisorder]

The stuff some folks use at NASIOC is called Scotty's Cocktail or Uncle SCotty's Cocktail if you wanna search for it.

 

This stuff has fallen out of favor - it is REALLY bad for your transmission. It turns to a gel like substance in cold temps and increases wear to an astounding degree. Yes it will fix syncro crunching in the short term - but it will kill off the rest of your tranny in pretty short order. Complete failures have been seen within 10k. All the guys that rebuild transmissions have stated the worst units they have seen have been run with this crap.

 

The ONLY transmission fluids that you should be using if you want to keep it around for a long time (and it's not already going out) are:

 

Subaru Extra-S

Motul with moly

Redline 80w90 NS

 

In that order of preference.

 

GD

[GeneralDisorder]

I just put Redline Lightweight Shockproof in my wrx tranny and rear diff.

 

I would get that stuff out of there with quickness. That's the major component in the "scotty's cocktail" that gels and contributes to wear. It's for racing - not daily driving. Get the Extra-S in there sooner rather than later.

 

GD

Edited February 29, 2012 by GeneralDisorder

[1 Lucky Texan]

I would get that stuff out of there with quickness. That's the major component in the "scotty's coctail" that gels and contributes to wear. It's for racing - not daily driving. Get the Extra-S in there sooner rather than later.

 

GD

 

There are hundreds of happy folks at NASIOC running the 'cocktail' and or Redline LW Shockproof. It may not be the best in very cold climates, but even some transmission repair techs have posted with no issues after 60K miles.

 

EDIT: here is one post from some tranny rebuilders/soob performance gurus;

 

******We were first turned onto Lightweight Shockproof when Pfitzner Performance Gearbox recommended that we use it in all of their Subaru 5MT synchro gearboxes. We have been using it ever since without incident.

 

Subaru requires the use of fluid that meets GL-5 requirements due to the design of the front hypoid gearset. GL-4 fluids cannot withstand the pressure created by ring and pinion, providing insufficient film thickness between the gear teeth. This causes the gears to directly contact each other and deteriorate very quickly. We have actually seen GL-4 fluids in Subaru transmissions return with less than 500 miles and a completely destroyed ring and pinion. The metal of the ring and pinion will suspend in the fluid and act like liquid sandpaper that can potentially damage the other gears.

 

Redline's Lightweight Shockproof is not API rated, however it is recommended for rear differential use. The front differential in a Subaru 5MT is designed and subject to the same stresses as a rear differential, as they are both hypoid gearsets. The capability of shockproof to withstand such high pressures as experienced in a differential is likely the reason that the Cocktail doesn't immediately chew up front differentials.

 

If you have grind issues, it is not a pure indication of a bad synchronizer. It CAN be indicative of incorrect fluid choice. There are no bandages over bullet wounds here. From personal experience, Redline's 75W90NS is the "by the book" replacement fluid Subaru's SHOULD use. I've used it on that basis. From the get-go, the shifting the transmission sounded like I was shaking a bucket full of sea-shells. It was awful, and a perfect case of the "right" fluid simply not allowing the transmission to properly do its job. The balancing point is finding a fluid that provides adequate front differential protection and synchro operation while still providing lubrication for the bearings.

 

We deal with an enormous amount of Subaru transmissions. With the exception of one, every grinding transmission we see and put shockproof in, the grinds go away. The one exception had a shattered 3rd gear synchro. It’s a fluid that, time and time again, has made Subaru transmissions shift more smoothly than with any other fluid. We have never seen a fluid influenced failure from Shockproof, and will continue to use and recommend using it until we find something better. In our opinion it is the best fluid to use in a Subaru 5-speed transmission.

 

The Andrewtech Team

Andrewtech Automotive ******

 

 

 

anyway, I won't argue with your experience, but folks could read some in the thread there if they want; http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23068677&highlight=failure#post23068677

 

I thought the idea was it wouldn't sling off the gears. (and, from wht I've read, the 'yogurt/gel issue with the Redline was fixed 9-10 years ago, but maybe it's temp dependent also?- Uncle Scotty is in Houston)

 

Anyway, I don't think Extra S is bad, or Motul, or almost any quality gear oil. I was just looking for something a little better. Since I do my own maintenance, I try to upgrade fluids.

 

YMMV

Edited March 1, 2012 by 1 Lucky Texan

[GeneralDisorder]

It's important to note the thread date on that link - it's from 2008.

 

With the availibility of Extra-S these days - there's really no good reason not to have it (or the Motul which is highly regarded as being on-par with the Extra-S) in every turbo transmission.

 

I agree that the LWSP is not *as bad* as the cocktail but I've run all of them at one point or another and I didn't notice any real benefits to the LWSP.

 

In any event - I really just wanted to insure that the OP knows about the dangers of the cocktail and to stear clear of it. LWSP on it's own is not nearly as bad.... but there's no compelling reason to use it over Extra-S or Motul that I've run across.

 

As for grinding syncro's - there's no substitute for replacement IMHO. Band-aids never work for long and tend to accelerate wear and cause other problems. It's not that hard to split the case and just install new ones. I recently did a '96 JDM STi tranny and with new syncro's it will go into first gear from a 35 MPH roll.

 

GD

Edited February 29, 2012 by GeneralDisorder

[1 Lucky Texan]

It's important to note the thread date on that link - it's from 2008.

 

With the availibility of Extra-S these days - there's really no good reason not to have it (or the Motul which is highly regarded as being on-par with the Extra-S) in every turbo transmission.

 

I agree that the LWSP is not *as bad* as the coctail but I've run all of them at one point or another and I didn't notice any real benefits to the LWSP.

 

In any event - I really just wanted to insure that the OP knows about the dangers of the coctail and to stear clear of it. LWSP on it's own is not nearly as bad.... but there's no compelling reason to use it over Extra-S or Motul that I've run across.

 

As for grinding syncro's - there's no substitute for replacement IMHO. Band-aids never work for long and tend to accelerate wear and cause other problems. It's not that hard to split the case and just install new ones. I recently did a '96 JDM STi tranny and with new syncro's it will go into first gear from a 35 MPH roll.

 

GD

 

 

Fair enough - I really just brought up the 'cocktail' (which DOES seem to have fallen out of favor for a different 'cocktail' in that same thread) to point out that mixing MAY not create a 'panic' situation. maybe just change it at 15-20K or if it feels like it is 'degrading' or causing a problem.

 

Soob trannies are odd - trying to get a fluid that plays well with the diff and the synchros....

 

can Extra S be bought in quarts now? used to be a 20 liter bucket from the dealer.

Edited February 29, 2012 by 1 Lucky Texan

[GeneralDisorder]

point out that mixing MAY not create a 'panic' situation.

 

Oh - yeah there's no issue with mixing regular and synthetic gear oil. Not any more of an issue than there will be with using that cheapo Coastal brand crap in there :-p

 

can Extra S be bought in quarts now? used to a 20 liter bucket from the dealer.

 

There is at least one website I've run across that repackages it in quarts. I don't know of any dealers that sell it that way though. The Motul is also hard to get - but again it's availible online.

 

GD

[Olnick]

******We were first turned onto . . . .

 

Lucky, would you mind going back to this post (#7) and introducing this as a quoted posting? I was totally confused as to who "We" was--who was making the claims--until I got to the end and saw the "Andrewtech" signature.

 

Might clarify things for other readers. Thanks.

[1 Lucky Texan]

Lucky, would you mind going back to this post (#7) and introducing this as a quoted posting? I was totally confused as to who "We" was--who was making the claims--until I got to the end and saw the "Andrewtech" signature.

 

Might clarify things for other readers. Thanks.

 

I don't know how to create the 'quote boxes'. so I use the *******

 

 

I would just add that, that entire thread has some good info in it, but it is quite long and many folks there are kinda cranky if you ask questions without doing extensive searching/reading first. One reason why I don't participate there as much as a couple other sites. Plus, I don't have the experience many other folks do. In that thread, you can find folks recommending/trying dozens of 'cocktails' to get improved shifting - while hoping longevity isn't suffering. Even Uncle Scotty uses a different mix that his original. Andrewtech now has a 'mix' they like as well. Also, many people there may already be suffering from a damaged part and are hoping a fluid change will, 'fix' their tranny - so, reports of success, failure, etc. should ALL be taken with a huge grain of salt. Throw into the mix people from Arizona as well as Alberta trying to find a fluid that is buttery smooth all the time - with folks who race, folks with 'dog-boxes', folks with modern 6spds, and folks who daily-drive, etc. it's mind boggling. The op could quite likely have used ANY decent fluid and experienced an improvement if the old fluid was thoroughly 'cooked' from age. (Even my experience could be explained by my just swapping out 35K miles old original fluid.)

 

I might try the Motul next time, but it's more $$$$

Edited February 29, 2012 by 1 Lucky Texan

[987687]

For those wondering about the Extra-S. The dealer nearish me will sell it if you bring your own container.

I usually clean out an old 5qt oil jug. That's enough for the transmission, rear diff, and if you spill a little bit. Or topping up if your transmission leaks. All my 5mt boxes have leaked...

[Olnick]

I don't know how to create the 'quote boxes'. so I use the *******

 

Just do it with words. Say, "Here is a posting about cocktails from an outfit called Andrewtech:"

 

That way we'd know it's not you making the statements/claims--that's what confused me! Thanks for responding.

[WoodsWagon]

Not any more of an issue than there will be with using that cheapo Coastal brand crap in there :-p

I seized the rear diff in my tacoma within 3k miles of putting Mobil 1 Synthetic in it. Let it cool off and it made it the rest of the way to my destination. Changed the Mobil 1 out (still full to the top, just filled with metal particles) and put cheapo coastal in. Drove it a thousand miles to california, changed with coastal again, and drove it a thousand miles back.

 

So thats 2k miles and counting on a trashed diff with coastal in it, and 3k miles from a perfectly good diff to a trashed one with Mobil 1 synth.

 

I've got a pretty high opinion of Coastal Crap right now.

 

Speaking of which GD, are you still in the bearings industry? I need carrier bearings for said smoked diff and the only ones I can find are dealer only $45 apiece.

[GeneralDisorder]

Speaking of which GD, are you still in the bearings industry? I need carrier bearings for said smoked diff and the only ones I can find are dealer only $45 apiece.

 

I'm not in the bearing industry (never have been....perhaps you have me confused?) but if you get the numbers off the bearings they are likely just standard tapered roller bearings that can be sourced from a bearing supply. There are automotive only bearings though that you can't do this with... but for carrier bearings they are usually just simple off-the-shelf units. I did rear axle bearings on a 70's 1/2 ton Dodge not too long ago - besides being a pain in the neck they were easy to source from my local bearing supplier using the numbers on the races.

 

GD

[WoodsWagon]

Yeah, must have you confused. Thought for sure someone on here was in bearings, and I thought it was you. I've gotten the koyo # but it doesn't seem to interchange with anything else. I've got a true-trac carrier to go in, but I'm hesitant to spend $100 on 2 bearings.

[ShawnW]

If I can find a suitable container I might try shipping a gallon of Extra S out. I buy it in the 20L/5g buckets on a monthly basis for my shop RetroRoo.

[1 Lucky Texan]

If I can find a suitable container I might try shipping a gallon of Extra S out. I buy it in the 20L/5g buckets on a monthly basis for my shop RetroRoo.

 

 

A couple folks at ebay seem to repackage it. It isn't cheap with shipping, but not outrageous either. Maybe showing a listing to a local dealer might convince them to sell some smaller fraction?

 

EDIT: a couple on-line sources for Extr-S in qts.;

 

http://www.mysubie.com/question/Where-to-buy-Subaru-Extra-S-Gear-Oil/735

 

http://www.fredbeansparts.com/index.php/subaru-75w90-extra-s-gear-and-transmission-quart-bottle.html

Edited March 2, 2012 by 1 Lucky Texan

[987687]

I know a lot of you aren't in Maine, but Evergreen Subaru will fill your container and sell it to you.

[ShawnW]

Boulder and Denver CO dealers both will too. They usually just fill up an old antifreeze jug.

[doc526]

Subaru of Kennesaw - 8.34/qt

 

BYOJ.....Bring your own jug.

[tehP]

I seized the rear diff in my tacoma within 3k miles of putting Mobil 1 Synthetic in it. Let it cool off and it made it the rest of the way to my destination. Changed the Mobil 1 out (still full to the top, just filled with metal particles) and put cheapo coastal in. Drove it a thousand miles to california, changed with coastal again, and drove it a thousand miles back.

 

So thats 2k miles and counting on a trashed diff with coastal in it, and 3k miles from a perfectly good diff to a trashed one with Mobil 1 synth.

 

I've got a pretty high opinion of Coastal Crap right now.

 

Speaking of which GD, are you still in the bearings industry? I need carrier bearings for said smoked diff and the only ones I can find are dealer only $45 apiece.

 

Awesome.

This has been highly informative everybody, I can't thank you all enough for your time.

And I'm feeling confident about my "coastal crap" too!

So confident I drained/replaced my rear diff lube with the Coastal as well.

 

I think i will bring a jug to the LongIslandCity Subaru dlr and get it there next time.

She doesn't like to shift to 2nd gear until it's totally warmed up.

It doesn't bother me, i baby it anyway. Gears don't grind at all it just feels stiff, you know?0

Perhaps lighter 75w90 next time, eh? (that's lighter right?