Motor seized or electrical problem?

[rdweninger]

Hello everyone,

I have an '85 GL wagon EA82, 5mt, 4wd, A/C, PS.

I bought it recently... PO said it had a blown HG. So I want to turn it over first before I pull the motor and reseal to make sure it is not seized. I can't get a socket on the crankpulley bolt (due to Rad. and fan clutch and front end damage). So I try bumping the starter...

When I turn on the ignition, I get dash lights and the fuel pump starts. Then I bump the starter and everything goes dead... no dash lights, no fuel pump, no ding ding bell. Nothing. And the starter didn't bump.

So I unhook and then rehook the battery... I get dash lights, fuel pump, etc. Then bump the starter and everything goes dead.

I am not blowing any fuses. The battery is out of my daily driver.

The coil is missing... I put it in the DD. Does that matter?

Any clues from the gurus? hey that rhymes.

Thanks for any help... Ron W.

[95legwagon]

that sounds like a bad battery cable...... happens all the time to cars we get in our junkyard.......check and/or replace defective cable. ill almost 100% guarantee thats what it is..... very common issue on older cars...not just soobs.

 

do the cables look corroded at all? swollen? rusty?

[AKghandi]

I got a jeep for 75$ with that exact problem. I replaced the terminal and it started right up and i dove it home.

 

It may be wise to pull the plugs to avoid hydrolock if i does have a bad hg.

[man on the moon]

Bad ground. If the motor is seized the starter will whine and get hot, but not kill the entire electrical system. It could melt stuff but it won't just go 'click-dead'. That is probably a ground problem as stated.

 

If the battery cables look good, there are a couple other wires to check. The starter has a ground that comes off the loom just shy of the starter, and grounds toward the rear of the engine. It is a big fat gauge wire with black/red insulation. It has a rubber nipple to cover the bolt. I have it grounded to a tapped hole at the rear of the head, but there are a couple spots it could be grounded (not too many--it's a short wire). It is probably this wire--clean the ground and connector, bolt snug and try starting her again.

 

An easy way to test if this is the problem--jumper cables. Run a ground from your negative battery post to a spot on the motor--alternator mount works well so long as you clear the fan area--and try cranking the motor. It should start and continue to run after you remove the cable, but it won't re-start if you kill the motor unless you ground it again. There is no need to jump the positive/hot terminal at all for this experiment, as the cables just complete the ground portion of the circuit for the starter motor. I haven't separated the loom, but I believe the "black/red" wire grounding by the starter, and the "black" wire that serves as the ground terminal cable on the battery are spliced together somewhere inside the loom wrapping. They are a similar or same gauge, and grounding the one serves as a ground for the other, which makes me think they are part of the same circuit.

 

 

There is a second ground up near the front, on the same side, though afaik it's not for the starter (I think it is a motor:body ground, generic). I have it grounded with the small bolt that holds the radiator pipe (connecting the rad hose and water pump) in place. This one is a medium/smaller gauge wire with black/yellow insulation. It does not have a nipple (at least on mine). Check and clean both ends of this wire, as well.

 

If this doesn't make sense, or is confusing, I'll take some pictures, just let me know.

[rdweninger]

Ok... consensus says to check the grounds. I'll try this tonight and report back to everyone on Wed.

Thank you for the replies. Ron W.

[rdweninger]

Here is the update.

I checked my grounds at the starter, battery, block to body. All look good and the cables look good.

Still no bump with starter... and then ignition/dash/lights power is lost. Same as original post.

I'm going to put the coil back in tonight to see if that makes any difference. Maybe the coil somehow completes the ignition circuit?

[Fairtax4me]

Nope, coils got nothing to do with it.

You have a bad connection either in the battery or in the cable at the battery. Do the battery posts move at all if you try to wiggle them? I had one break internally and it caused me all sorts of grief until it finally broke off entirely. Tried to take the cable off just to replace the end and the battery post came with it.

[GeneralDisorder]

Hook your jumper cables directly to the positive post on the starter and to the engine block - then with a jumper wire from the positive post touch the starter solenoid spade terminal. Should kick the starter over if it's good.

 

GD

[man on the moon]

Any progress yet?

[rdweninger]

no progress last night. I put the battery back into my DD.

I will swap batteries this weekend and then energize the spade terminal on the solenoid.

Does anyone know how many volts I should be getting from the ignition at that spade terminal on the starter solenoid. Maybe I'm not getting the proper amount to engage the solenoid?

I'll report back on Monday.

[GeneralDisorder]

12v but the amps are also important. If the connections for the crank circuit are poor the solenoid will not shift hard enough to make good contact and the motor won't turn - you'll just get a click.

 

GD

[rdweninger]

Hello Rick,

by the connections for the crank circuit, are you talking about the starter contacts? I just replaced those on my other '85.... had the click click but no start syndrome. Got the new contacts from a repair shop here in town... the guy didn't seem too happy to sell them to me. Charged me $2 for both contacts.

Can I measure the voltage/amp draw on the wire that hooks up to the starter solenoid? I could have my son run the ignition while I read it with my multimeter (has ohms, dc and ac volts) I don't think I have anything to read amps.

Ron W.

[GeneralDisorder]

No - it's not the contact per-se. The circuit that feeds the starter solenoid spade terminal from the battery, through the ignition switch, and through the inhibitor switch on the automatic shifter, etc. Any poor connections at these various places will result in the solenoid not kicking out hard enough to make good contact inside.

 

GD

[rdweninger]

ok. I'll check those connections... tracing back from the solenoid.

Thanks for the tip.

[MilesFox]

check the ground cable where it goes on the bracket to the bellhousing bolt. Check that bolt to make sure it is tight, and that this bracket is present. check the bottom of the starter for a 17mm nut and make sure it is there.

 

there is a 12mm nut holding the battery terminal on the positive. The original terminal can stretch to where the bolt is all the way threaded and is still loose. Try a push down and turn technique when puttint the terminal on the battery post.

 

get a brass marine terminal with a wing nut and connect it to the eyelets o the original wire.

 

if all else fails, replace one or both of the cables.

[Cougar]

If you are still having touble with voltage dropping while in the START position check the fusible links for a loose connection. They are inside the small black plastic box mounted on the coolant reservoir.

 

If you need to verify the starter is working ok then make sure the transmission is not in gear and connect a jumper wire to the small solenoid wire on the starter solenoid. Then make sure all things are clear of the engine area and touch the other end of the wire to the positive battery post. The starter should then turn the engine over if it is working ok.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Cougar

[MilesFox]

Maybe it is hydrolocked. pull the plugs and see if she turns. get a tool on the crank and turn it. maybe your problem is a bad intake gasket and not a HG.