Mock up in solid works, Subaru R160 Locker

[Prwa101]

mk so i got this crazy idea of mocking up a lsd for class becuase ive pretty much finished all my other projects. sooo couple Qs

 

Any one have any pictures of what makes it LSD the mechanics anyways?

 

would it be possible to swap the part that makes it LSD into a standard Subaru Diff, to make it LSD?

 

i think i can get my hands on a broken one from my freind not sure yet.

 

thanks guys!

 

Prwa

Edited May 15, 2012 by Prwa101

[idosubaru]

would it be possible to swap the part that makes it LSD into a standard Subaru Diff, to make it LSD?

commonly done in rear diff conversions, usually to get the right gear ratio, not for the LSD otherwise you could just bolt them up and go.

[1 Lucky Texan]

You should probably start with wiki or howstuff works. There are different types of limited slip devices. A couple of types, most recently viscous coupled, have been sold on soobs, and aftermarket LSDs that never came new on soobs.

 

vicsous probably the easiest to model.

 

edit; here's some info;

 

http://www.houseofthud.com/differentials.htm

Edited April 19, 2012 by 1 Lucky Texan

[Prwa101]

correction, VLSD* is what im going to draw up.

 

so can the VLSD swap out the guts for a standard ea82 diff guts?

 

say if i were to make the guts for a VlSD would i beable to swap it into an standerd diff?

Edited April 19, 2012 by Prwa101

[Prwa101]

Wait....

 

The Clutch-Pack ( Salisbury) LSD is the ones that every one looks for..

 

i think this is the one i want to make..

 

and advice?

[WoodsWagon]

Here's some pics of the LSD guts:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2240798

[Prwa101]

Here's some pics of the LSD guts:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2240798

 

Awsome! Yeah this is the one I've been looking for! Thanks!

Edited April 21, 2012 by Prwa101

[WoodsWagon]

You need to make a special carrier too, there isn't enough space in the open carrier to fit spider gears and clutch plates. The LSD carrier is bulkier to fit all the clutch plates and thrust plates in.

[GeneralDisorder]

The type you want to make if you are planning on actually making your own LSD is a Torsen type 1. It's 100% mechanical and much easier to build than the clutch types.

 

GD

[Red92]

Any one have any pictures of what makes it LSD the mechanics anyways?

 

Another option is to look through the old patents.

 

Patent filings have really nice technical diagrams from all different angles, and once you get past the legal jargon, they even tell you how it all works.

 

Try going to http://patents.google.com, and typing in searches like:

* torsen differential

* limited slip differential

* locking differential

* automotive differential

* etc.

 

[WoodsWagon]

If you plan on machining up a working version, make a locker. You could make a copy of a detroit locker or a powertrax that replaces just the spider gears but scale it to fit a subaru differential.

 

That would have market appeal, whereas LSD's are already available, lockers are not.

[Prwa101]

If you plan on machining up a working version, make a locker. You could make a copy of a detroit locker or a powertrax that replaces just the spider gears but scale it to fit a subaru differential.

 

That would have market appeal, whereas LSD's are already available, lockers are not.

 

Dude that what I'm going for! Something that hasn't been done! Sorta a swap set up. Yeah my dad runs the Detroit locker in in 1ton chev awsome set up!

 

Yeah Ill prolly end up 3d prototyping it

 

Prolly do more than one though all these lsds are a good set up.

[Prwa101]

how this one look??

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYBOoljH-qE

[WoodsWagon]

The problem with a detroit like that is you can't install it in a one piece carrier, it has to be one that clamshells at the crosspin holes. A powertrax or other "lunchbox" locker is designed to be assembled inside a one piece carrier and held in place by the crosspin. This style:

Why do they always put cheesy 80's porno music to professional product demonstration videos?

Here's an assembly demonstration:

One thing to consider is that subaru used two methods of stub axle retention; the older ones have a bolt that holds the stub into the side gear, the newers use an expanding ring clip to hold it in. The expanding ring clip style is stronger and easier to machine for, but it would require people with older cars to swap the inner CV cups. Having broken a bunch of the hollow stub shafts with the through bolt, I think it's worth the upgrade. Just keep that in mind if you design one for the older style of diff.

 

But yes, a ratcheting overrunning dog clutch style automatic locker is what would be a hot item.

 

Oh, and as a complete aside, I saw your adapter plate your other post. How do my plot #'s compare to the ones you came up with? http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=131151

Edited April 25, 2012 by WoodsWagon

[1 Lucky Texan]

saw a couple of animations at GKN (used to be Tochigi Fuji Super) but not great;

 

http://www.gkndriveline.com/drivelinecms/opencms/en/solutions/transaxle-solutions/cross-axle-limited-slip-and-locking-differentials/

[Prwa101]

Nice! Great info! Yeah I was starting to wonder about the one I had found, because it acted almost like a clutch pack LSD. But what you found is what I'm looking for! thanks man!

 

Haha I've been getting really bored in class because I learn so fast. So I'm going to be making on of these!

 

Oh nice! Yeah I saw your post the other day! I don't have the numbers with me right now, but my upper bolt holes are a little farther to the right and down. Both the larger dowel pins are a little to the right maybe .04? And larger by .15 I'm pretty sure. But it's prolly not even enought to change anything line up wize.

 

Thanks agin guy! I'll keep you guys posted on the Detroit!

[WoodsWagon]

So with the diff stub styles there's bolt in and clip in. EA82's and older used bolt in. EJ's used clip in. 90-94 had clip in stubs that splined cv cups were held on with a roll pin like the EA's. 95+ had clip in stubs that were integrated into the CV cups, probably the strongest arrangement. The 90-94 legacy stubs form an adapter between EA axles and a clip in diff.

 

One other thing to consider is the Datsun 510 guys steal subaru clutch type LSD's out of EA's. They use bolt in stubs with a U-joint flange.

 

Best market coverage would be a bolt in style side gear because the 510 guys could use them. Strongest would be a clip in style side gear because you could use 95+ integrated cv stubs.

 

Maybe best to make both styles of side gear but start with the bolt in style to tap the 510 market?

 

Get an open carrier diff from a EA car another open one from a Legacy and compare side gears. Diff's should be pretty cheap or I bet people local to you would loan you ones to look at and measure.

[1 Lucky Texan]

So with the diff stub styles there's bolt in and clip in. EA82's and older used bolt in. EJ's used clip in. 90-94 had clip in stubs that splined cv cups were held on with a roll pin like the EA's. 95+ had clip in stubs that were integrated into the CV cups, probably the strongest arrangement. The 90-94 legacy stubs form an adapter between EA axles and a clip in diff.

 

One other thing to consider is the Datsun 510 guys steal subaru clutch type LSD's out of EA's. They use bolt in stubs with a U-joint flange.

 

Best market coverage would be a bolt in style side gear because the 510 guys could use them. Strongest would be a clip in style side gear because you could use 95+ integrated cv stubs.

 

Maybe best to make both styles of side gear but start with the bolt in style to tap the 510 market?

 

Get an open carrier diff from a EA car another open one from a Legacy and compare side gears. Diff's should be pretty cheap or I bet people local to you would loan you ones to look at and measure.

 

 

this sounds like great advice.

 

Would there be any point in him looking at the Miata market?

[Prwa101]

Nice man! That is for sure some great Info I'll be needing!! Yeah I'll be looking for thouse diffs, so if anyone has one Layin around let me know!

 

And dang I just scraped a legacey diff a couple months ago...

Edited April 25, 2012 by Prwa101

[WoodsWagon]

Would there be any point in him looking at the Miata market?

 

Miata diffs are completely different. It's a rare thing for those guys to use a R160 because swapping it in is custom fab and it's not an upgrade.

 

Put out a request for diff donations in the old gen/off road forums. You're in the Portland Oregon area right?

Finding a Powertrax locker to look at would probably help too. Don't get the one with the springs and clutches to smooth engagement, it adds complexity and weakens it. Two dog teeth side gears, two center blocks and the 4 indexing pins and springs is the simple way to go.

http://www.offroaders.com/tech/lock-right-locker.htm

 

It also looks like the teeth may be slightly dovetailed so they tend to lock together under load. Straight cut dogs may skip at lighter loads when the crosspin isn't jamming the center blocks into the side gears.

Edited April 25, 2012 by WoodsWagon

[Prwa101]

Miata diffs are completely different. It's a rare thing for those guys to use a R160 because swapping it in is custom fab and it's not an upgrade.

 

Put out a request for diff donations in the old gen/off road forums. You're in the Portland Oregon area right?

Finding a Powertrax locker to look at would probably help too. Don't get the one with the springs and clutches to smooth engagement, it adds complexity and weakens it. Two dog teeth side gears, two center blocks and the 4 indexing pins and springs is the simple way to go.

http://www.offroaders.com/tech/lock-right-locker.htm

 

It also looks like the teeth may be slightly dovetailed so they tend to lock together under load. Straight cut dogs may skip at lighter loads when the crosspin isn't jamming the center blocks into the side gears.

 

Yeah that's what I'll do! Yup good ol sandy Oregon! 30 miles from Portland.

Man looks likes it's going to come together, I wonder who all would buy a locker like this of I made it? If this really takes off, I owe you! BIG!

 

I was messing around with solid works yustersay day and drew a random miss dim mention gear in 5min. So If I can get my hand on a rear one to use calipers on to get actual dimms its going to go fast!

[Prwa101]

On the same note, I has access to 3d print the diff gears Asembly in class and have a working model of it when I'm done! Which will come in handy!

[Prwa101]

Yeah! General Desclosure hit my post and Ive got diffs! He says he has both ea and legacey 3.7 and 3.9. Any one in particular I should be looking for?

 

+1 for him!

[WoodsWagon]

Ratio doesn't matter as there is no carrier split in a r160. You need the carrier itself so you can see the hole the locker needs to be assembled through, and the side gears to see how the axle stubs interact with the gears retention system.

 

You do need to be a bit careful if you go into production with these as there is probably still active patents on the design even though they will never manufacture one for a subaru.

[AKghandi]

how about a Detroit locker?..out of all the options it seems the easiest