Loyale EJ swap

[Tex_williams77]

I've seen a lot of threads about swapping the EA with a EJ, but nothing about the time and money it takes. How intensive is this project? What are the costs besides the new engine? What else has to be changed? Is it better to just get the whole power train and swap it? I know these questions have probably been answered else where, but I've spent hours looking an still haven't found it. Anyone have a link that might help?

[Prwa101]

I've seen a lot of threads about swapping the EA with a EJ, but nothing about the time and money it takes. How intensive is this project? What are the costs besides the new engine? What else has to be changed? Is it better to just get the whole power train and swap it? I know these questions have probably been answered else where, but I've spent hours looking an still haven't found it. Anyone have a link that might help?

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=122765

 

this has a lot of the costs, petty much everything nux says is whats needed.

 

this swap can be time consuming but took me 5min to drop the motor in the other day, bolts up prefect with sjrs add plate.

 

power train wize, if you like your ea tranny keep it, swaping trans is just another cost.

 

this shows you everything youll need and be doing, price parts out of there if need be.

http://offroadingsubarus.com/downloads/EA2EJ.pdf

 

for me im doing my swap on a major budget, so i had worked off the motor and other parts so, i think total including the car so far ive spent 750$ on my swap. i also stripped down my harness too, cutts 200$ out of the cost or so. and this is my build

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=127240

hope this helps!

 

-Prwa

[GeneralDisorder]

Easily more than the cost of a first generation legacy that runs and looks nice.

 

Loyale.... not worth it. EJ swaps are best suited for purpose built race or off road vehicles, or people that have lots of time, extra money, and are just doing it for the hobby or for the novelty of it.

 

My opinion of course - but the only EA bodies worthy of an EJ swap are the EA81 hatch, the Brat, and the EA82 three door coupe/RX.

 

In the case of the EA81 hatch it is the lightest and shortest of the EA bodies and therefore makes the best platform for lifting and off-roading.

 

In the case of the Brat - it's a collectible and they are worth significantly more than any other EA body. Thus an EJ swap that's done right will make them more road-worthy for years to come and can be the answer for putting them back on the road as EA81's are becoming harder to come by.

 

The RX and the three-door-coupe body is an interesting and unique body style and has the potential to be an '80s collectible.

 

But if you just want a more powerful wagon.... forget it. Your just burning money. Buy a first gen Legacy, lift it, and be done.

 

GD

[987687]

I agree with GD on that one. Around here, I can get a decent first gen with only minor issues for $1500 all day. Often less. I wouldn't DD a loyale.

 

I have a GL and I love it. Wouldn't trade it for anything, it's a fun car.

But I drive my $400 2nd gen as my daily car. Those can be had wicked cheap with a bad DOHC motor, slap in a 2.2 and call it a day.

[91 subaru]

Dang i really wanted the extra power in my lighter loyale:(

[Numbchux]

petty much everything nux says is whats needed.

 

Nux?

 

Easily more than the cost of a first generation legacy that runs and looks nice.

 

Loyale.... not worth it. EJ swaps are best suited for purpose built race or off road vehicles, or people that have lots of time, extra money, and are just doing it for the hobby or for the novelty of it.

 

I disagree with all of this. A running, and not completely rusted-out AWD subaru starts at about $3k in this part of the world.

 

Also, I love the utility of a wagon, but a Legacy is much more heavy/bulky. Also, the PT4WD transmission (especially D/R) is awesome for a daily driver. Almost the mileage of a FWD car, but all the capability of 4WD.

 

 

I think an EA82-body wagon, with a D/R PT4WD 5MT, a '96-'99 EJ22, and a decent trailer hitch is about the most versatile and reliable daily driver a person can have. I still regret selling mine

[Prwa101]

Nux? [/QOUTE]

 

Haha the only way I can remember you user name

 

 

 

[quote name= I think an EA82-body wagon' date=' with a D/R PT4WD 5MT, a '96-'99 EJ22, and a decent trailer hitch is about the most versatile and reliable daily driver a person can have. I still regret selling mine [/quote]

 

I agree with you on this one!

[GeneralDisorder]

I disagree with all of this. A running, and not completely rusted-out AWD subaru starts at about $3k in this part of the world.

 

Key phase. Here they are worth virtually nothing. I have been GIVEN first gen Legacy's for free. No rust.

 

Also, I love the utility of a wagon, but a Legacy is much more heavy/bulky.

 

Much more?!? A few hundered lbs maybe. The EA82 body is pretty heavy and bulky itself. And it's power to weight ratio is crap compared to an EJ platform. The additional weight of the Legacy, which is minor, is easily offset by the superior suspension, additional power without need for a costly engine swap, etc.

 

I think an EA82-body wagon, with a D/R PT4WD 5MT, a '96-'99 EJ22, and a decent trailer hitch is about the most versatile and reliable daily driver a person can have. I still regret selling mine

 

To each their own - but the value of an engine-swapped EA is not recoverable unless it's one of the three body styles I mentioned above. No one is going to pay what you have into the car if you EJ swap a Loyale body wagon. Just not going to happen.

 

Perhaps I'm unique or one of the few - but being that I am a mechanic - my goal as far as vehicles goes is to never have more into something than I could sell it for. So far I have NEVER lost money on a car - not on one single occasion. And that's including the ones I personally drive. They have all been fabulous deals I guess.... or I'm just lucky.... or perhaps my recipe is a good one

 

GD

[Numbchux]

Key phase. Here they are worth virtually nothing. I have been GIVEN first gen Legacy's for free. No rust.

 

Definitely the key phrase. That's why I said it. You are kind of spoiled in the PNW. The OP is in Oklahoma... so neither of our local experiences are entirely applicable.

 

Much more?!? A few hundered lbs maybe. The EA82 body is pretty heavy and bulky itself. And it's power to weight ratio is crap compared to an EJ platform. The additional weight of the Legacy, which is minor, is easily offset by the superior suspension, additional power without need for a costly engine swap, etc.

 

I bet the split between them is more like 5 or 600 lbs. Which is a ton (figuratively.... obviously :-p ). The suspension is definitely superior, I wouldn't consider strapping $8k coil overs to an EA82... but for DD duty... sure

 

To each their own - but the value of an engine-swapped EA is not recoverable unless it's one of the three body styles I mentioned above. No one is going to pay what you have into the car if you EJ swap a Loyale body wagon. Just not going to happen.

 

Perhaps I'm unique or one of the few - but being that I am a mechanic - my goal as far as vehicles goes is to never have more into something than I could sell it for. So far I have NEVER lost money on a car - not on one single occasion. And that's including the ones I personally drive. They have all been fabulous deals I guess.... or I'm just lucky.... or perhaps my recipe is a good one

 

GD

 

Each their own, indeed. Your points are not without logic, but I still wouldn't dismiss the swap nearly that quickly.

 

That's a great outlook to have. But I look at it a little differently. When I'm considering modifying a car, I assume that I'll be losing money on it, and be happy if I don't. Usually I come pretty close to breaking even.

 

I don't think I'll make my $1800 back on my Celica... but I intend to drive it for 100k miles or more...

[91 subaru]

According to wikipedia a first gen legacy weighs 3220. A loyale weighs 2300 lbs. Curb weight. Just throwin that out there.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

According to wikipedia a first gen legacy weighs 3220. A loyale weighs 2300 lbs. Curb weight. Just throwin that out there.

 

I Wish I Had a 2300 Lbs Loyale to Fuel economy reasons Only... But that Data is incorrect.

 

This Picture belongs to a Subaru Loyale Sedan, (Not Mine) Posted some time ago, you can see it says: 3,430 Lbs ...

 

 

...I'm Sure Wagons are more Heavy Weighted and I'm Almost Sure that my BumbleBeast always weight 4,000 Lbs due to the Huge amount of Tools I always carry (in three Tool Boxes) the New 15" rims and myself

 

Somehow I Really Like the Heavy weighted car Feeling that my BumbleBeast has, also it gives some extra Handling in Certain Situations.

 

Kind Regards.

[tractor pole]

I Wish I Had a 2300 Lbs Loyale to Fuel economy reasons Only... But that Data is incorrect.

 

This Picture belongs to a Subaru Loyale Sedan, (Not Mine) Posted some time ago, you can see it says: 3,430 Lbs ...

 

 

...I'm Sure Wagons are more Heavy Weighted and I'm Almost Sure that my BumbleBeast always weight 4,000 Lbs due to the Huge amount of Tools I always carry (in three Tool Boxes) the New 15" rims and myself

 

Somehow I Really Like the Heavy weighted car Feeling that my BumbleBeast has, also it gives some extra Handling in Certain Situations.

 

Kind Regards.

so according to that tag the weight should be around 2,620 lbs curb weight with no passengers or cargo. GVWR(Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) meaning maximum weight approved for vehicle use.

 

I have a hard time believing that a Loyale wagon is close to 4000 lbs... but I could be wrong:-\(I have never weighed mine, but I will next time I pass the weigh station on the highway)

 

Ben

[GeneralDisorder]

Legacy:

 

 

4110 - 810 = 3300

 

GL wagon:

 

3430 - 810 = 2620

 

So about 700 lbs difference.

 

Brat:

 

 

3460 - 850 = 2610

 

EA81 hatch:

 

3220 - 810 = 2410

 

Over 200 lbs lighter than either the Brat or the GL... and there's actually interior that can be removed and tossed in the hatch where the Brat has only the bare metal of the bed.... Also 5" shorter wheel-base and no overhang past the rear wheel.....

 

These numbers are only off the vehicle's data plate though. I've weighed Brat's at scrap metal scales, etc and seen them tip out at 2250 empty except for myself.... so I don't really put much faith in these numbers.

 

GD

[987687]

I've always been meaning to put my GL on the scale at the junk yard. I drive in all the time to get parts, so I'll just ask if I can hit the scale on my way out for curiosity.

[man on the moon]

I've always been meaning to put my GL on the scale at the junk yard. I drive in all the time to get parts, so I'll just ask if I can hit the scale on my way out for curiosity.

 

It will weigh significantly more on the way out

[987687]

It will weigh significantly more on the way out

 

Hahah yea, considering I won't drive in for light stuff...

[heartless]

GD - you guys in the PNW are definitely spoiled up there. I am not too far from Numbchux (northcentral WI) and good clean cars of ANY kind are hard to come by - somewhat rusty ones on the other hand can be had cheaply.

I would absolutely love to head out to your neck of the woods and pick up a nice clean early Legacy wagon to bring home - if I had the way to get them back here, I would do more than one!

 

My personal thoughts - I think that if someone has a clean body - of any style - and they want to "upgrade", it is entirely up to them. Dismissing a particular model because you, personally, dont think it is worth doing is wrong. You arent the one doing it, it isnt your money or time, so what do you care if someone wants to ej an ea82 wagon? Why bash someone else for wanting to follow their dream?

 

Whether or not the cost is "recoverable" is irrelevant to many - they probably arent doing it to "make" money. I know I wouldnt be - but then I am a "drive it till it drops" kind of person...

 

Everyone is different, has different wants and needs - these are the things that make life interesting - especially Subaru life.

 

I do have a question for Numbchux tho - why the 96-99 EJ22??? those are interference motors, right? why not the earlier non-interference - seems to me that would be the way to go - so what if it pops a belt, no damage done - new belt, pulleys, waterpump, seals if needed, good to go.

[dhise]

 

I do have a question for Numbchux tho - why the 96-99 EJ22??? those are interference motors, right? why not the earlier non-interference - seems to me that would be the way to go - so what if it pops a belt, no damage done - new belt, pulleys, waterpump, seals if needed, good to go.

 

 

He put a '96 in mine, last of the non-interference motors. The advantage is the obdII which is nice for diagnostics. As far as the debate goes, I sold off my legacy but I'll drive my ej swapped GL until the wagon breaks in two...

[robm]

So, dhise, what kind of fuel consumption do you get with that rig?

[GeneralDisorder]

GD - My personal thoughts - I think that if someone has a clean body - of any style - and they want to "upgrade", it is entirely up to them. Dismissing a particular model because you, personally, dont think it is worth doing is wrong. You arent the one doing it, it isnt your money or time, so what do you care if someone wants to ej an ea82 wagon? Why bash someone else for wanting to follow their dream?

 

Whether or not the cost is "recoverable" is irrelevant to many - they probably arent doing it to "make" money. I know I wouldnt be - but then I am a "drive it till it drops" kind of person...

 

I did mention that a lot of people are doing it for the hobby value - to learn and to have something unusual. Which is fine - more power to them.

 

But to ask about how much it costs and if it's "worth it".... it's really not. You may have a lack of Legacy's in your area that aren't rusted out but you can buy a plane or train/bus ticket and come out here to get whatever you like. And the cost still won't be as much in time or money as doing an EJ swap. And you would have a very valuable vehicle since it would be rust free and you could easily sell it for more than you paid.

 

Everyone is different, has different wants and needs - these are the things that make life interesting - especially Subaru life.

 

Sure - we all have hobbys. The definition of a hobby is that you will be losing money on it. Otherwise the tax man says it's a business. So at that point there's no reason to ask the question at all - if it's a hobby then *of course* it isn't worth it.

 

I do have a question for Numbchux tho - why the 96-99 EJ22??? those are interference motors, right? why not the earlier non-interference - seems to me that would be the way to go - so what if it pops a belt, no damage done - new belt, pulleys, waterpump, seals if needed, good to go.

 

'95 to '98 are the best to use for wiring and manifold. You can use whatever bottom end you like. Though in practice interferance vs. non just isn't an issue with the EJ engines. Unlike the EA82 the belts just don't break. So if you are even remotely doing maintenance and bother to change the belt every 100k or so - there's just no need to worry about the interferance engines. I've replaced probably over 100 EJ timing belts and I've torn down more engines than I can count. Haven't seen a broken belt yet.

 

GD

[Numbchux]

Yea. I don't worry about broken timing belts on an EJ. On an EA82 we talk about running without covers so when it breaks, it can be replaced quickly. I wouldn't even consider that on an EJ. They are infinitely better designed.

 

The OBD II ECUs are so much smarter than the OBD I versions. I've seen more than a few people throw 8 psi of boost at one with no problems. You actually can't run a piggy back ECU, because it will learn around it. This translates into more power when you want it, and better mileage when just cruising. AND, the diagnostics are far more detailed. AND AND, there are a plethora of products out there designed to plug into an OBD II port to monitor the engine, including Bluetooth dongles that can sync real time information to your smart phone! No more jumper wires and counting bulb flashes.

 

I know GD prefers the 95 wiring to the 96-99, but not me. 95 2.2s are not as common, wiring diagrams are harder to come by, and heaven forbid you should ever need a new ECU. These are relatively small hurdles, so I don't think the 95 should be avoided, but it's not my first choice.

 

Also, the Impreza of those years had 2 plugs between the engine controls and the rest of the harness. This simplifies the job of stripping and installing it. Again, not a deal breaker, but I do prefer that to the Legacy versions which are all one piece.

[GeneralDisorder]

The OBD II ECUs are so much smarter than the OBD I versions. I've seen more than a few people throw 8 psi of boost at one with no problems. You actually can't run a piggy back ECU, because it will learn around it. This translates into more power when you want it, and better mileage when just cruising. AND, the diagnostics are far more detailed. AND AND, there are a plethora of products out there designed to plug into an OBD II port to monitor the engine, including Bluetooth dongles that can sync real time information to your smart phone! No more jumper wires and counting bulb flashes.

 

Absolutely.

 

I know GD prefers the 95 wiring to the 96-99, but not me. 95 2.2s are not as common, wiring diagrams are harder to come by, and heaven forbid you should ever need a new ECU. These are relatively small hurdles, so I don't think the 95 should be avoided, but it's not my first choice.

 

I have the '95 diagrams so I don't have to worry about finding them :-p. And the '95 ECU is no problem. www.car-part.com - you can find almost anything on there and the yards are almost giving away the ECU's since they almost never fail.

 

In fact - I've only encountered exactly one bad EJ ECU. It was a '98 Outback - the heater core leaked down the passenger side of the floor board and got inside the ECU. Shorted out the #3 injector driver transistor causing the #3 injector to be constantly on. Otherwise I've never seen an ECU fail.

 

GD

[Subaru_dude]

I say go for it. Have no idea how much you can find an EJ22 motor for, but if you want to keep the car and don't mind dumping some money into it, then who cares if you "lose" a little money. The EA82 bodies are great... especially the wagons. They're 2 cubic feet short of having the same amount of cargo capacity as a brand new Outback and those things are HUGE. They're a good bit lighter than Legacys, that's fore sure. Hell even with 90hp, they can still get around and (mostly) keep up with traffic. Throw 45hp under the hood and you've got one fun rig.

 

On a personal note... just get that damn EA82 OUTTA THERE.

[heartless]

Thanks for answering the question about the years - still learning about the EJ's myself, and so far my experience is limited to the first gen...

 

And while I havent had a belt break - I did have one jump time on my 90 model (made the mistake of letting someone else do the timing job - wont ever happen again!) had that happened on a non-interference motor - I would have been looking for a replacement motor, not another timing kit - big difference in cost there.

 

 

 

Have no idea how much you can find an EJ22 motor for

 

Just sold a 1st gen (90-91) - mostly complete for $150 - had 160K on it and was a known runner when we got it - and it is again now!

[Numbchux]

And while I havent had a belt break - I did have one jump time on my 90 model (made the mistake of letting someone else do the timing job - wont ever happen again!) had that happened on a non-interference motor - I would have been looking for a replacement motor, not another timing kit - big difference in cost there.

 

Not necessarily true, actually. Timing jumped does not mean damage. I've seen more than a few jump a teeth or 3 without damage. After the Ziptie Rally roll in 2009, both cams on the driver's side had jumped, the exhaust cam almost 90 degrees!! Reset (with a new belt), and it fired right up, no damage at all. Still running those heads!