Advice on buying used...

[Pelle]

Hey, first time caller, long time listener. I'm looking to purchase a used Subaru, probably around 1995-2000ish, I only have about 4-5k to spend. I've been reading a lot on the USMB to figure out what's best to buy but I'm still confused. Should I steer clear of all 2.5l and only go with 2.2, and is that because of the total destruction a head gasket failure would cause? Would a manual transmission be better then auto with cars this old? Is there any model/year that is just all around bad and I should avoid? It will most likely be an Outback since I'm in Colorado and they are plentiful on the used market. Any help will be most appreciated, thanks.

[1997reduxe]

I'll take the first plunge.

To be honest, if you look around, I'd have to ask my brother how he searched and came up with so many, but for example on craigslist there are many for sale but they go fast, sometimes really cheap. I wish it was on cl still, but they had a really nice 2001 legacy outback with 130k that needed an engine the other day for $1650 here in Houston. If I had had the money I'd have driven straight over and bought it.

The thing as I can sum it about 2.2 vs 2.5, in my experience if you find a 2.2 that has relatively low miles and runs well, quiet, and it has either had (verifiable) maintenance done, or you start it as soon as you buy it, complete timing belt kit changeout, pulleys, water pump, oil pump reseal procedure, all (subaru) cam and main seal, then you'll have a very good chance of it going a long long time, easily 300k+. And I have never heard of auto or manual being better, but auto is easier, and their autos if cared for, often even if not, run practically trouble free the life of the car.

With the 2.5s, you can expect that they may well be selling because of head gasket issues, possibly not, but you will either be able to make it a while, hopefully a good while, without problems, but you might want to replace them (and all subsequent other labor/parts involved) sooner or later. Someone told me the other day when I was asking here, do it right away upon buying:

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=133778

 

But that is just my general impression, I have never had a 2.5, but 3 2.2s. The other thing to consider is that pre-97 2.2s are non-interference engines, the valves won't be bent on a simple timing belt breakage, however a lot of other damage can be done, I have learned, such as damage to block from broken pulley bolts being ripped, etc. Post 96/97 changeover are interference, as well as are all 2.5s? Of course the problem now is that pre97 are becoming quite dated, though I see down here (Houston/TX) many early ones, 92, 93 etc that I suppose due to lack of snow and salt they look fantastic, and often have real low miles, 85, 90k, etc.

 

I'm sure others who know more may chime in. Keep your eyes on CL, cars.com (it filters a lot of small regional newspapers that may be out in boonies so you may have a better chance if you don't mind taking a drive. I drove 8 hours to look at my 2nd one from SE PA to southern NY.) But REAL southern cars are better.

Oh, and especially since you're in Colorado, check out this profile:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/member.php?u=358

She is one of the most knowledgeable people regarding rebuilding Sube engines on this forum, and she's in Denver. (They do it for a living). But if you pick through her posts you'll find a wealth of info regarding head gasket jobs, which bearings to use on a rebuild, any & every old thing.

Good luck.

Dan

Edited June 18, 2012 by 1997reduxe

[davebugs]

Check for all tires identical. Gives you some idea of how much the car was paid attention to and possible future (or existing) torque bind issues.

 

2.2 is sturdier than a 2.5 in my experience.

 

Take for a long test dirve is you can (over 45 minetes) if a DOHC to check for HG issue - other than looking at overflow bottle.

 

Tight turns in a parking lot ot check for torque bind.

[heartless]

Tight turns in a [paved] parking lot to check for torque bind.

 

this is a definite for any all wheel drive vehicle. any binding, bucking or anything other than smooth operation indicates torque bind.

 

The 2.5 head gasket issue was on a certain range of years, but not sure of what years(?) - it has since been resolved. If you can get proof that HGs were done on a given vehicle in that year range, it should be ok.

 

If you are looking for fuel econmy, the manual trans is the way to go, altho the 4spd auto is a decent tranny if you prefer that, just dont expect stellar mpgs out of it.

 

maintenance history is always a nice thing to have, but not always available. If you end up with one that has no "known" history, then it is always a good idea to do a complete timing belt service, which includes pulleys, seals, water pump, etc., as soon as possible. peace of mind is priceless.

 

my personal preference is for the non-interference 2.2, but that is me. Plenty of folks have the 2.5's and like them just fine.

[ivans imports]

Make shure you get a oil preshure test no less than 10 psi hot at idle rest is ereavent as thiss was the big problem with 2.5s

[Pelle]

So, from what I can tell, both 2.2/2.5 are good, just 2.2 is more bulletproof and preferable. Unless the seller has documentation that the timing belt and head gasket were replaced around the 100k mark, I should expect to replace them myself, just to take no chances with them failing. Tight turns to check the awd torque bind and decent test drive to heat up engine and check for leaks, besides all the usual common sense stuff when purchasing a used car. Thanks for the help and advice.

[1997reduxe]

Yeah and one thing too, you have to keep in mind this forum is mainly either people who work on cars a lot, mechanics, techs, car geeks, or people who come here because they are experiencing car problems. There are whole websites devoted to the hell of Sube head gasket failures, but then there are probably a lot of folks who drive a 2.5 and have never had a problem. So if you can find people who are reputable, or again the maint records or a local mechanic who has serviced the car over its lifetime, who can verify past troubles or not, that's what you're looking for. Small dealers are notorious for repairing and flipping cars. Stay away!

'97

[jeffx]

I believe that the 2.5 up to 1997 used premium fuel only? The first gen EJ25D are quad cam engines. The second gen had only two cams. My 98 OBW (EJ25D) went through two headgasket failures and had been serviced properly (well, by the dealer, anyway). Sold it. My DD is a 88 GL Wagon. No worries. Just my 2 cents. Good Luck.

[Christophr]

(on checking HG in used 2.5) WHEN ENGINE COLD, check the coolant reservoir and under the radiator cap. Should be little/no black stuff on the walls, should be no oil smell, should be no oily sheen on top. I read this check on forum somewhere a couple years ago before I bought my '99 OBW with EJ25D (dual overhead cam).

 

Mine had black stuff around the water line in reservoir, oily smell from coolant in reservoir, and oily sheen on top of fluid under radiator cap, and eventually it needed a HG. However, from my research before buying, in a used '99 EJ25D I EXPECTED to have to replace the HGs eventually. So I bought it at 132k miles (obviously well maintained), drove it 20,000+ miles, engine NEVER overheated, other than signs I described above there was no indication of HG failure. It ran great, but eventually I noticed a decrease in power (poor compression). And it was leaking oil from the rear mainseal (and probably all the other seals too) down onto the exhaust manifold, which produced a nice burning oil smell. So, I got underneath on a lift and could see evidence of the driver side HG failure underneath (coolant seeping) on the block where the HG is (as well as extensive oil leaks).

 

Anyway, point of the story is on that generation, that engine, with high miles, check to make sure no real damage is done before buying, but I'd still expect to eventually replace (a) timing belt, water pump, idler pully, etc. ( both HGs, © engine oil seals, (d) possibly valve job (I did because of the 20,000+ miles I drove on failed HG). I had all these things done by a mechanic and a new clutch while the engine was out.

 

I also replaced leaking, corroded exhaust pipes (from years of MD's salty winter roads and salty summer air), muffler, and rear catalytic converter. I also proactively did other maintenance that I assumed needed to be done because of the age and high mileage of vehicle (tune up, new tires, new pads/rotors all around, replaced a failed front caliper, replaced a slightly noisy front bearing, just replaced the clutch slave cylinder).

 

That said, including price of vehicle, all the work I had mechanic do, all the maintenance and work I did myself, I've got about $8,000 in the car and expect to hit 300k miles. All in all, $8,000 for 150,000+ miles is not a bad price to pay. Would spend twice that much for a new sub-compact car, which will need some similar maintenance along the way to 150,000 miles (incl. expensive timing belt, water pump). And my OBW is MUCH more fun to drive! So when buying used gen 1 OBW with EJ25D, factor the inevitable and possibly extensive (and expensive) maintenance into the price before you buy, but in my opinion, it's still a better buy than new.

[idosubaru]

If you're looking to buy something and drive it the next day:

 

based on what you said 1995-2000, i would go with an EJ22. shouldn't be hard to get a decent late 90's Subaru with an EJ22. the 99 special edition legacy's are really nice actually and can be had with EJ22's. although it is the odd Phase II EJ22 variant.

 

if you're willing to put a little legwork into it: it's also not that hard to find a great vehicle with a blown motor (Ej25's are a dime a dozen) for $2,000 and then spend $3,000 putting another engine in it (EJ22) plus all new timing belt, water pump, reseal, etc. you could get it done much cheaper than that though, that is really high end. CCR sells newly rebuilt Ej22's for somewhere around there with a 3 years warranty i believe. so for $5,000 you could end up with an EJ22 with a warranty.

 

transmission doesn't much matter for reliability. i'm starting to tire of manual transmission. manual trans have clutches, input shaft bearings, and center diff failures, making them no more reliable or cheaper than auto's. you'll be at the mercy of it's 15 year past more than anything no matter which way you choose.