'98 OBW EJ25D replaced HGs suspected fail - what now?

[samneric]

Hi all,

 

I have decided to try and trouble shoot my recent Headgasket repair for the good of anyone else who wants to do it themselves. My leasons learned can be added to the knowledge already out there.

 

So, in that vain, lets start with answers to questions that followed when asking the question "what now?" in another thread:

 

 

*what* Subaru gasket did you use? if it's a SOHC Ej25 and you installed the Subaru supplied gasket - that's the same gasket the car came with - the same gasket that failed the first time. i would have used Subaru's turbo gasket - it's a direct swap and those motors don't have headgasket issues, it's an MLS gasket. if it's a DOHC EJ25 you should use the 610 gasket (last three digits of the part number) - an updated gasket. no point in reinstalling the same gasket that's prone to failure to begin with...though it should hold longer that it appears yours might have.

 

i have heard of the cylinder sleeves walking due to prior overheats...i'm not sure how to test that but it would be nice to make sure that's not the case for you since that's essentially not properly repairable.

 

wonder how often Ivansimports has seen that - have you? i haven't yet but other folks that do tons of Subaru's (GD) has.

 

I bought the Gasket and Seal kit for my year and model (98 Outback Wagon). The part number for this set is 10105AA401.

 

This gasket set contained two Subaru head gaskets. Their part number is 11044AA610. These are multi-layered gaskets that look like the pictures I have seen elsewhere on here for the replacement HGs.

 

I asked my local Subaru dealer mechanic his thoughts on the symptons and he mentioned the "cylinder sleeve walking" that you GG mentioned. He also said it is very rare.

 

Symptoms after HG replace: Bubbles in overflow tank. Coolant being pushed out of rad. The overflow bottle doesn't fill up yet - the level raises about 4-5 inches. I have been using a turkey baster to put the water back in the rad after every trip of 20 miles.

 

So my plan is to pull the heads off again and have their flatness tested with a machine shop straight edge.

Then I will test the block surfaces with the straight edge.

Then I will have the heads pressure tested this time

 

I guess I will take it from there.

 

previous threads on the HG replacement:

 

After: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=133799

During: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=132115

Before: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=124451

 

 

Steve

Edited June 20, 2012 by samneric

[idosubaru]

wow, nice hit. i would have the block deck tested before the heads are pressure tested as the heads are likely to be fine. EJ heads rarely crack.

 

someone on another forum recently had coolant leaking through a porous portion of the head casting - visible when the exhaust manifold was removed....i would think this is a very rare failure and not likely but maybe worth a check if you got something strange going on?

 

do you know how badly it was previously overheated when you owned it?

or if the headgsaket were every replaced before you owned it (which would almost confirm a prior overheating condition)?

[samneric]

i would have the block deck tested before the heads are pressure tested as the heads are likely to be fine. EJ heads rarely crack.

 

Is this something I do myself with a machine shop straight edge? Something where I need to take the whole block to a machine shop? Where I need to split the block and take each half to a machine shop?

 

 

someone on another forum recently had coolant leaking through a porous portion of the head casting - visible when the exhaust manifold was removed....i would think this is a very rare failure and not likely but maybe worth a check if you got something strange going on?

 

My guess is no only because since driving it (two weeks now), I haven't been losing coolant - only having it displaced into the overflow bottle (which I am putting back every day).

 

do you know how badly it was previously overheated when you owned it?

 

Ok - we need to define badly. My impression of badly is: needle at or above the two max lines on the gauge. When I drove it prior to repair, I was concious of overheating but couldn't do much when it did. So I always made sure the gauge stayed below the two max marks - it came close but didn't go into that max range. When it did raise I never let it stay raised for more than 1/2 a mile before stopping and let it cool down. The needle stayed on 3/4 for a few miles though during the several occasions it started to overheat.

 

I hope this clarifies it a little.

 

do you know how badly it was previously overheated when you owned it?

or if the headgsaket were every replaced before you owned it (which would almost confirm a prior overheating condition)?

 

The headgaskets I took out were the black coating material kind which had obviously eroded over time. I got the car at about 215k miles and have no idea how it was driven prior. It may have been overheated before but the HG symptoms were not that bad when I first bought it - drove it 500 miles at least without overheating.

 

What are the symptoms of excessive overheating in its life? My Subaru dealer mechanic only mentioned cylinder wall slippage, not warping of any kind - he said the heads are too small to warp.

 

There is no excessive knocking so I assume the bearings are fairly decent.

 

Steve

[ivans imports]

the heads dont warp they wear when i plane them there is low spot on bottom side of fire ring and on the lower oil return ports by exhaust the 2.2 heads cleanup at 2 thow but the 2.5 d and 2.5 1-3 all take 3-4 thow they are always bad on lower side where oil retun ports are

[samneric]

the heads dont warp they wear when i plane them there is low spot on bottom side of fire ring and on the lower oil return ports by exhaust the 2.2 heads cleanup at 2 thow but the 2.5 d and 2.5 1-3 all take 3-4 thow they are always bad on lower side where oil retun ports are

 

So can I take the whole block to my machine shop for planing or do I have to take it apart into two halves?

 

..and with that information, can I assume that my new headgaskets are leaking at the bottom of the fire ring?

 

Why isn't this part of all the threads I have read on doing this job?! I did a LOT of research on this before I started. Arghhh:banghead:

 

I hope people learn from THIS particular HG job.

 

I am going to use this car for rainy-day driving until I get some money saved up. I have a convertible that I can use in the meantime. Hopefully less use on the Subie will allow for more time before catastrophic repeat HG failure.

 

Steve

[ivans imports]

Its a 2.5d oh tear it down surface block surface heads reberring and rering bottom end and put it back toghther and should be good make shure you use avinoic form agasket on headgasket surfaces. I have a customer car here today that customer did own headgaskets did not surface heads and i can see oil leaking from the bottom seam of headgaskets runs ok but leaks oil and ticks like crazy because lifters got mixed up anyway formagasket whould have saved thiss guy a oil leak for shure no worrys its not just you. Good thing its here for front diff so i can ignore engine problems. I whould tear your engine down and rebiuld it you will be happy with results and ask the machine shop to let you watch them plane it you may be suprised at what you see

[davebugs]

I check the engine - one of several reasons I think you should pull the engine to do a proper HG job. It's also easier to clean up and "true" if necessary that mating surface.

 

Often on the heads you can see wear from the HG apparently moving around a bit. There will be a little groove. Again if I see a lot of wear I'm suspect of rod bearings and usually 2.2 it.

 

If you look at the old HG's you can usually see where the black rubber stuff is missing at the bottom of the cylinders between the cylinder and water jacket. I keep some on the wall to show folks.

 

I take my heads to be surfaced, steam cleaned, and checked. Never have needed valves or guides, or seat work. The shop I use says Subaru's rarely need guides unless a physical problem. Then again if ANY reason to suspect a 2.5 I just put a 2.2 in. I've probably only had a dozen or so 2.5 heads done. I've done another dozen 2.5 HG jobs without sending them out. Infact the dealer rarely sends them out.

 

I do often see some warpage on a head - I forget which one - it's been a while. From the center to one of the corners. You can get a machinest's straight edge and feeler gauges to check whether it's within specs or not.

 

Often I prefer the finish from a machine shop to the finish I can get with scotch brite, etc.

[ivans imports]

Resurfaced a 1981 ea81 head yesterday and it had exact failure ponts and the newer head exactly the same places were low on head and gasket had been moveing vibrateing and had worn the head in lower oil return ports funny same problem from day one we have been debating weather a heat risistant spacer on exhaust whould help to keep exhuast heat away from headgasket.

[samneric]

Resurfaced a 1981 ea81 head yesterday and it had exact failure ponts and the newer head exactly the same places were low on head and gasket had been moveing vibrateing and had worn the head in lower oil return ports funny same problem from day one we have been debating weather a heat risistant spacer on exhaust whould help to keep exhuast heat away from headgasket.

 

Interesting.....