firstjump Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Intro & Pre-Thanks: greetings to all and thanks for this wonderful resource and all the people that contribute to making it great. I'm a newb and novice at car repair but this site has been invaluable to me. Thanks. Background and Problem Information Wife's 1997 Subaru Outback Sport with 199,000 miles on it. Recently replaced the alternator with a rebuilt one from O'Reilly Autoparts. NOTE: I realize now that such was a bad move as I should have gone through Subaru for $60 +/- (see http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1111401&postcount=12 for details and part number info). After replacing the alternator the Subaru ran like a champ for three days. After three days a problem surfaced. The problem came after starting the subaru. It made a gawd awful scream/screech immediately after starting. That horrible sound went away when shifted from P to D. After driving the car home (and it ran fine without sound or any lights of problems popping up on the drive). I went to turn the car off and the second problem occurred. The second problem was two-fold: (1) when shifting back to P from D [before turning key off], the loud screech re-occurred; and (2) then just turning key off did NOT shut the car down. That's a pretty freaky thing for this dude - turn the key off and the car just keeps on running and you can't put it in P or N because it screams like a banshee. .... anyway ... I finally got it shut down by pulling spark plug wires. Also, the battery is good and strong and takes a charge. It's a new battery from AAA. Lastly, just found out that pulling fuse 16 (the starter motor fuse) will allow the car to shut off (kills it). So, in the end, it appears that the screech is from the starter motor going whilst the car is already running - and the starter only engages when in Park (P) or Drive (D). The starter motor is going because it's getting power from the alternator or something ... more on this theory to follow. My Proposed Solution: Now having searched this forum a lot, I think I have an idea of what is bad. This thread http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=131929 is the basis for my proposed solution. Naru and Cougar (along with Gloyale) found the solution - A BAD DIODE between the alternator and the starter motor. Would you agree with this? Also, sorry for the need for hand holding but I have ZERO CLUE on how to locate the diode that's gone bad and then how to replace it. CONCLUSION. Do you think this assessment is right? How can i locate this diode and replace it. I do have Radioshack close and can get a diode there. I did find a diagram of electrical that should apply and maybe can help with some translation help. The diagram is here. Thanks again! Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Does the starter just spin if you were reattach everything right now? Sounds like this can either be a faulty solenoid or faulty iggy switch, but usually it is the solenoid. I think this is just coincidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in KY Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) My guess is the new alternator has nothing to do with the two problems. Another guess is the problem lies within the ignition switch. " A BAD DIODE between the alternator and the starter motor." Never heard of this. Why would there even be a diode between the alternator and starter? The starter doesn't even care if there is even an alternator. all it needs is a charged battery. Edited July 19, 2012 by john in KY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstjump Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 Does the starter just spin if you were reattach everything right now? Sounds like this can either be a faulty solenoid or faulty iggy switch, but usually it is the solenoid. I think this is just coincidence. The starter will spin and start the car if i reattach everything and the key is on. If the key is in off position it will spin and (obviously) not start the car until i turn the key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstjump Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 My guess is the new alternator has nothing to do with the two problems. Another guess is the problem lies within the ignition switch. " A BAD DIODE between the alternator and the starter motor." Never heard of this. Why would there even be a diode between the alternator and starter? The starter doesn't even care if there is even an alternator. all it needs is a charged battery. thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. The bad diode comment came from the post referenced in my original post. The alternator was sending voltage back to the starter and to stop this a diode had to be implemented. I wish i was smart enough to come up with that sort of idea, but alas, I'm not ... that was the theory that worked on the other person's similar issue and I'm trying to understand more so that I can know if it will work on mine. cheers and thanks for trying to help this desperate hombre. -fj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Your solenoid is stuck/shorted. Sounds like you need a starter. When you turn the key you power the solenoid. The solenoid has two purposes. The first is to push out the starter drive gear to engage the flywheel. the second is to connect the starter motor to the battery and cause the motor to spin. If you have a test light or a meter, you can test the smaller wire connected to the starter. That comes from the iggy switch. If it is powered only in the crank position it is the starter. If it is always powered iot is the iggy switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in KY Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Nipper's suggestion that the problem is either the starter or its solenoid is probably the correct diagnosis. There is no relationship between the starter and alternator. The starter gets its voltage directly from the battery and when activated, the current flows through the starter, through the engine block, and back to the battery. Although I am puzzled why the starter disengages after the shifter is moved out of Park. But whatever, in my mind it is either the starter or the ignition switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 John, it is the neutral saftey switch. It disengages in gear as it has it's power cut off.. Wait ... That would lie blame at the iggy switch. If the solenoid was shorted it would care less where the power came from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstjump Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 thanks for the input! Seriously, thanks. So, to make sure that I'm following: you're diagnosis is that it's a faulty/bad iggy (ignition switch)? Can i have this tested, or do I just need to replace it? Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Actually as weird as this sounds to you, it is not a complicated thing to diagnose. If you arent doing the work yourself a shop can figure it out quickly. If you are doing it yourself all you need to do is disconnect the minor lead at the starter and see when that has voltage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 There's actually a better option for a bad altenator than an auto parts chain store rebuilt or a new Subaru replacement. Ask around, there's probably an independent altenator/ starter rebuilder in your area with a good reputation. A good local guy does good work, cares about his rep, and is even cheaper than auto parts chain store "rebuilt". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I keep forgetting that option as we do not have any rebuilders around here anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I agree with Nipper's good advice about the ignition switch causing the trouble. The starter circuit gets cut off when the shifter is not in the 'P' or 'N' position. It appears that the switch contacts for the START position are making contact while in the switch is in the RUN posiiton. You might be able to clean the switch contacts and fix the trouble or if you can reposition the switch contacts somehow that should clear the trouble also. It is hard to say what damage has been done to the bendix gear of the starter and the ring gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I would pull the starter and inspect it. Hopefully the drive took all the abuse and not the flywheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstjump Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 Hey Guys, thanks a ton for your replies. I had to leave the subaru for a few days. I'll remove the starter and do as advised by y'all. I'll report then. Big thanks ... the explanations make sense too. cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstjump Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 There's actually a better option for a bad altenator than an auto parts chain store rebuilt or a new Subaru replacement. Ask around, there's probably an independent altenator/ starter rebuilder in your area with a good reputation. A good local guy does good work, cares about his rep, and is even cheaper than auto parts chain store "rebuilt". Thanks Dude ... you most definitely abide, and i wholly appreciate that. I actually know a pretty decent rebuilder around. When I get it pulled I'll look it over and then take it to the rebuilder and get his testing and opinion. Cheers and don't spill the white russian please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Ignition switch is broken. The Inhibitor switch (park/neutral switch) competes the circuit from the start contact in the ignition switch, to the starter solenoid, when the shifter is in Park or Neutral. Move the shifter to any drive gear and the starter can not engage. Ignition switch should be fairly easy to replace, IIRC there is only one screw holding it on. Remove the screws from the bottom of the steering column trim (should be 4 or 5 IIRC), then wiggle/push/tug the two halves apart to expose the goods inside. Ignition switch is on the left side of the column and has several large wires soldered onto it. One screw holds it to the column, remove that and the switch will pull straight out. then you get to follow the wires down the column and find the harness plug to unhook. Might have to cut some electrical tape/zip ties along the way. This is what you'll end up with http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_ignition-switch-bwd-intermotor_10014289-p?searchTerm=ignition+switch# If you're ambitious you can take the old one apart and see what broke, and post some pictures of it. Edited July 23, 2012 by Fairtax4me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstjump Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 I'm back. Thanks for the replies. I didn't mean to sound ungrateful ... just been away for work for the last couple of weeks. .... that being said, here's where I'm at. I took your word and began doing this myself. All went well getting the steering column off (@#$% stripped screw excepting ... but that's life, right?) and locating the ignition switch. Thank you for the help on that. Yes that ignition switch is on the left/door side of the steering column and you need an angled and very small philips head screwdriver to remove it. PROBLEM: I removed the ignition switch and then came upon a problem. I followed the switch's wires over and encountered a mass of couplings. The following pictures illustrate this. this is the ignition switch, right? ... and here's where it connects: Notice it has the three yellow connectors ... as compared to the "plug" connector I expected it to be based on FairTax4Me's awesome post: http://images.apwcontent.com/is/image/Autos/201-1804_is?$APW_imgProd$ UGH! Is this something that happened with the remote start system that the previous owner had installed?? I'm sorry for being such a newb and being scared to screw something up ... it's never something too simple. What do yall recommend. thanks again for all your help. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstjump Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 Can i just snip and then couple the wires with the new ignition switch wires ... binding with electrical tape? Laugh if that is stupid as hell ... glad to give you a laugh ... but if it is that dumb and laugh-worthy, please tell me so I don't just do something stupid like that. Should I use couplers? I'm probably in over my head ... but that's the story of my life and I've gulped much much water and shi* but i've not drowned ... yet ... and i want to get this sucker fixed! Thanks again for the support and cheers to you and your laughs at my expense!:brow: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 What I would do is just install the new switch, get a bunch of new taps, and reconnect everything with the new taps. Looks like an alarm set up and possibly remote starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Yep those tie into remote start/ alarm system. Like nipper said, Make a note of which wire is hooked to which color on the ignition harness, then reinstall them with new taps. Is the remote start system still functional? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstjump Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 argh, thanks guys for the help. I got the part from Autozone. They looked it up, ordered it, I picked it up and was excited to install it tonight. And then ... I realized i got the wrong ignition switch. The one I got, is a five wire one ... the one that I took out is a four wire one. I just took a picture of the two ... but my bloody camera froze up. I'll get it posted ASAP. So, now I'm stuck not knowing the right part to get. Man, if it wasn't for bad luck, I'd likely have ... i dunno ... it's not life or death, but talk about frustrating!! And now to your questions: Does the remote starter still work? The remote starter no longer works. It stopped working a couple of years ago. Connecting the wires. Thanks for your words on this. I got some "weatherproof quick splices" to hook those in with the other four wires. and now my camera is working ... compare the two ignition switches: The one with the snipped four wires is the old and faulty ignition switch. So ... that being said, anybody able to help me out with the right part number? The part number for the new one (the incorrect five wire one) is LS786 at autozone. It's made by the same "kanto seiki" folks from Japan ... just one wire is not there. And by the way, the wire that is "extra" on the new one is a RED lined wire. Sorry to be such a little b1tch and need so much help. I feel like a toolbag of tools that are worthless but dammit I need your help and trust you guys and most of all, I really appreciate it and will some day pass it along and help out somebody else. Also, note I've looked around the internet a lot trying to google the ignition switch and find the right one. ... what's interesting to me is that the link posted on this thread by FAIRTAX4ME at Advance Auto Parts - http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_ignition-switch-bwd-intermotor_10014289-p?searchTerm=ignition+switch# - looks like a four wire ignition switch, but when I run their little computer to verify that it is compatible with this subaru - it gets rejected. So, what the hell? How can i know which is right and go get it and not waste another day - of mine (and yours)!?! thanks a bunch hombres. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstjump Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 Can I just clip that red lined wire? I don't want to do that without knowing ... so I don't have to just waste that $35 i spent on the new switch. Thanks again. cheers!:confused::-\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Ugh... As far as I can tell Autozone doesn't even carry the right one for your car without ordering a whole key cylinder, which is expensive and just not worth it. Go get that one from Advance. You need a 4 wire switch. You really should try to get the correct switch rather than cutting/ modifying trying to make the wrong one work. Sure it might be fine, but that's going down a road just asking for trouble. There are differences in the switches between certain models. I suspect (and I could be wrong) that the reason you can't get the correct one to pull up is you may be selecting the wrong car. You have to make SURE that you select IMPREZA OUTBACK when selecting your vehicle. LEGACY Outback is an entirely different car. That distinction between the two models has to be made. Lots of people unknowingly get the two confused, or don't pay attention, and while there are plenty of parts that can be interchanged between the two, they are two different cars. Transmission selection can make a difference as well, so make sure you select the correct transmission type if it is an option. Remote start. If it doesn't work. you want to get rid of it asap. Reason why, that may be the cause of the problem. Those aftermarket add on kits aren't exactly reliable. After market alarm systems quite often cause trouble in many cars. If it's dead, get it out of the car. Follow those wires from the ignition harness back to whatever made in china/tiawan/korea/insert-name-of-cheap-labor-industry-country-here module, find all the other wires spliced connected into the factory harness that go to it, relieve them of their duties, and get rid of it. If you need help, post some pictures of the wiring and where it goes and we can tell you if it's factory wiring or aftermarket stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstjump Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) thanks FairTax ... Big time ... So I'm going to take the wrong switch back to Autozone. I called Advance. They said the ignition switch only comes from the manufacturer and so they would have to order it ... and then they said NO LONGER AVAILABLE. Nice. Keep on striking away - that's what I do. So that made the last option for me: a junk yard. Did the search and came up with: Vehicle: 1997 Ignition Switch Subaru Legacy NOTE: NOKEY Stock # W1E017 Cost: $35 Location: Wagner's Auto Salvage Inc. USA-NC(Durham) I'm going to take in the old one and have them pull the part and see if it matches up. Damn. What a load of work ... and I hope it's worth it. I'll keep you posted of how this next step goes. I do hope y'all are getting some laughs out of my effed up situation and lack of ability and luck, but dogged determination to get this sum*************** running. Also, now that i get a closer look, I can see that it's the legacy outback - not impreza outback they have the part for. This is getting ridonkulous. Will keep you posted. Getting to be a yawner. After Market Remote Starter. Holy bunch of wires all over the place batman! Shiiiizle. Wow. I can see how those cause some problems. It's like reading a foreign language. I've taken some photos and will post. I just hope that the ignition switch is right first, then when i get that located, I will go to task on removing the mountain of wiring of the crappy dead remote starter. Thanks again and ...Cheers. and wish me some luck! Edited August 2, 2012 by firstjump update Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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