Stubies Subie Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 This just happened on my way to work today, so I haven’t had a chance yet to really look into it, at the moment, I’m looking for ideas as to what to look for: The car is question is a rock stock 91 Loyale wagon it's a 4wd 5 speed with 155,000 miles on the clock. It’s a hot day, temps in the 90’s I’m on the freeway doing about 60mph, enjoying the ice cold AC when I start hearing a clunk, clunk, clunk, coming out of the rear of the car, at first I thought it might be a flat, so I pulled over, checked all the tires, their all good. Once back on the freeway, the clunk, clunk, clunk returns, it’s very prominent, very loud, sounds like something broke or let loose, like maybe a broken axle or something. As I exit the freeway, I notice that the clunk, clunk, clunk gets slower as the car goes slower, gets faster as the car goes faster, but pretty much maintains the same tone and loudness when driving in a straight line, but get’s unbearably louder when turning to the left, and completely disappears when turning right I can also make it go away completely for a short period of time by lightly tapping the brakes, once I got the car to my place of employment, in the parking lot the clunk, clunk, clunk disappears completely when in reverse. I took a quick look under the car when I got to work and didn’t see anything out of the ordinary, there’s no play in the rear wheels, there’s no slop as would be found with a bad cone washer, and giving a quick twist/turn/tug on the rear axles didn’t show anything out of the ordinary either, the axles seem tight, with no play or slop. The exhaust as a pretty good leak to it and it kind of looks like the exhaust might be rubbing up against the drive line as I do see some fresh scrapes on the drive-line, However looking at the exhaust and the drive-line, even if they were rubbing, I don’t see how that would make such a profound clunk, clunk, clunk, it’s just a smooth round drive-line in close proximity to the exhaust pipe. If I can come up with a coat hanger or some bailing wire tonight, I’ll try pulling the exhaust away from the area of the drive line and see if that does any good, although from my viewpoint, they may look like they are close together, but they don’t look like they are rubbing At this point, I don’t believe it’s the exhaust rubbing the drive-line causing the problem. What’s your opinion? I’m going to try to take a closer look at the car when I go to lunch tonight, although I won’t have much time to really get into it, and with the clunk, clunk, clunk being as loud as it is, I’m more inclined to leave the car at work rather than drive it home and risk further damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj421 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Hmmm, sounds like a similar issue to what I have, except mine is in the front. Through a lot of reading on here, I really believe my wheel bearings are going bad, and I'm gonna replace them once I can get someone to help me. I say it could be your wheel bearings or maybe your axle, just from my experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
czny Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Broken right outer cv joint cage? Not as likely the stub axle bearing - they last forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubies Subie Posted August 15, 2012 Author Share Posted August 15, 2012 Broken right outer cv joint cage? Not as likely the stub axle bearing - they last forever. I'll check that when i go to lunch, but a quick glace at that axle a little while ago didn't look like anything was wrong with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
czny Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Jack up the right rear corner & check for crunchy feeling rotating the wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubies Subie Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Jack up the right rear corner & check for crunchy feeling rotating the wheel. will do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92_rugby_subie Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Its load bearing whatever it is... and its on the right rear of the car... Turning left (more weight on right rear) gives it: "unbearably louder" sounds.. where as less weight (turning right and lifting the weight off that tire) makes the sound disappear... Drum brakes still but dont think thats the cause... I wonder if the hub went bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubies Subie Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 jacked up the right rear and that rear tire dances all over the place, looks like the wheel is about to fall off, rear wheel bearings are completely gone. it's weird how it went out like that all of a sudden, maybe there were warning signs, but I never noticed them. need to have it towed to General Disorders place for repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
czny Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Wow! Who'da thunk double tapered bearings would've failed so completely. See how many rollers were left intact, if any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubies Subie Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Wow! Who'da thunk double tapered bearings would've failed so completely. See how many rollers were left intact, if any. it's gonna be interesting to see what's left, I'll get pictures, it's not going to surprise me if it took out the axle as well, I'm sure there must have been warning signs, but I missed them or something. Ive never seen a wheel bearing blow so badly so fast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubies Subie Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 My solution to my wheel bearing problem, call a tow truck, then call GD, and tell him it’s on it’s way ….problem solved ….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubies Subie Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 it turned out to be a bad cone washer, it took all of 10 minutes to fix and about $10.00 a stupid cone washer, I went through all of that because of a stink'in cone washer, $10 bucks and 5 minutes of work and the old wagon was back on the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj421 Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 it turned out to be a bad cone washer, it took all of 10 minutes to fix and about $10.00 a stupid cone washer, I went through all of that because of a stink'in cone washer, $10 bucks and 5 minutes of work and the old wagon was back on the road. Really? That was it? It fixed all the noises coming from the wheel? Maybe that's all I need to do, but I doubt that, haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92_rugby_subie Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 I do recall you saying not the axle nut... you were close Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
czny Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 it turned out to be a bad cone washer, it took all of 10 minutes to fix and about $10.00 a stupid cone washer, I went through all of that because of a stink'in cone washer, $10 bucks and 5 minutes of work and the old wagon was back on the road. It pays to carry spare parts & tools sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubies Subie Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) yeah, if I would have pulled the wheel and drum at work, I would have seen that it was the axle nut, but I didn't have a spare anyway, going to make sure I got spares now though. I replaced all the axle nuts on that car a few months ago, except that one, at that time, it was the only one that was tight, so I didn't mess with it. oh well, it's leaving me enough money to get the Legacy fixed, I'm going to tow it to GD's tomorrow for a transmission replacement. Really? That was it? It fixed all the noises coming from the wheel? Maybe that's all I need to do, but I doubt that, haha. that wheel was really loose, that's why i thought it was the bearings, it went clank, clank, clank really loud driving it down the freeway Edited August 17, 2012 by Stubies Subie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj421 Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Well, sir, I believe you just fixed two cars today. Apparently, you fixed your car with a new axle nut. I thought, hey, I got two brand new axle nuts in my garage. One came off the axle I bought and the other one, well, I don't know where it came from. I decided to swap out the brand new axle nuts and put them on the front wheels of my car. Couldn't help but notice that my old axle nut (especially on the driver's side) was really worn; the 'castle' part of the nut was chipped away, the threads were diminishing, etc. Put the new nut on. Torqued it to spec; 145 ft-lbs. I couldn't help but think, there's no way this fixed the issue. A brand new nut? No, it's gotta be something else. Jumped in my car, turned the engine on, and started driving down the street. It eliminated ALL noises coming from the wheel! It was so quiet, a blind person would think I was driving a Prius. Gonna need to check it in 100 miles or so, to see if the cone washer is indeed failing. But wow, that blows my mind. I seriously thought it was my wheel bearings. I guess I'm gonna have to sell my bearings that I bought. Anyone wanna buy 'em? Haha :-p Thanks for fixing my car too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubies Subie Posted August 18, 2012 Author Share Posted August 18, 2012 you fixed your car with a new axle nut. I thought, hey, I got two brand new axle nuts in my garage. I decided to swap out the brand new axle nuts and put them on the front wheels of my car. Jumped in my car, turned the engine on, and started driving down the street. It eliminated ALL noises coming from the wheel! I had that happen before, I replaced 3 bad ones, and never messed with this one because it was tight at the time, I should have replaced it when I did the others. it's amazing how much noise a bad cone washer can make, it's unbelievable. you would think the whole dang axle was about ready to drop out of the car. from now on, I'm gonna make sure I got spares. I torque them to 150 ft-lbs, then give them another additional little crank to get the cotter pin holes to line up with the castle nut, then insert the cotter pin. it's kinda one of them, "learn as you go" kinda things, but I've noticed that my cone washers came loose during or shortly after an off road 4 wheel drive run, both times they have come loose has been right after I either drove down a nasty logging road in 4WD, or went Baha-ing out across a friends pasture to get to his pond for a fishing adventure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj421 Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Yeah, I definitely know what to do now if the symptoms start up again. I'm just glad because now if I go through the drive-thru, it won't sound like a knife is scraping against my wheel. It seems to me like you're using "axle nut" and "cone washer" interchangeably. They aren't the same thing. You've got the cotter pin, the axle nut (a.k.a. castle nut), the flat/spring washer, and then the cone washer. Unless you know the difference. Because I believe a failing cone washer can cause the axle nut to come loose. However, I just fixed my car's noises by replacing the axle nut, not the cone washer (I'll replace the cone washer if the axle nut comes loose again). Although it is benneficial to replace the nut and two washers at the same time I guess. Although I don't wanna spend $15 on a cone washer! The four times I've torqued my axle nuts, they've always lined up with the cotter pin holes at 145 ft-lbs, which is weird. Guess I'm lucky? I haven't done any offroading or driving in 4WD lately. My wheels started making noise after I bought the car and before I went "offroading" for the first (and last) time in it, and it wasn't anything rough. Just some greenlaning up a mountain. Only time I needed 4WD was because FWD didn't give enough power to climb the incline. :-p I guess my axle nuts just deteriorated over time, since my car's got 260,000 miles. As far as I can tell, most everything on my car looks original, so I think the axle nuts were from 1990. :-p I went out tonight and took some pictures. The first pic is of my old axle nut (resting on a lug nut). You can see that the edges are messed up, almost making it a stripped. The threads are also pretty messed up. The second pic is of the new axle nut, which you can tell is in a lot better shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 (edited) He knows the difference. I'm the one that schooled him..... And the one that fixed the car a few days ago. Replacing the axle nut will do nothing but tighten it up and eliminate the noise for a couple miles. The real problem is the cone washer which is really just a mechanical taper-lock as seen on a variety of industrial applications but rarely in the automotive world. From those pictures I can tell your cone washer is trashed - the gap isn't closed up enough so its not gripping the axle shaft properly. Also looks like your spring washer is upside down. GD Edited August 18, 2012 by GeneralDisorder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubies Subie Posted August 18, 2012 Author Share Posted August 18, 2012 (edited) He knows the difference. I'm the one that schooled him..... And the one that fixed the car a few days ago. Replacing the axle nut will do nothing but tighten it up and eliminate the noise for a couple miles. The real problem is the cone washer which is really just a mechanical taper-lock as seen on a variety of industrial applications but rarely in the automotive world. From those pictures I can tell your cone washer is trashed - the gap isn't closed up enough so its not gripping the axle shaft properly. Also looks like your spring washer is upside down. GD GD says it best, replacing the axle nut (castle nut) isn't going to solve the problem, it will only hide it for a few miles, and from looking at your photo, you have to much of a gap in your cone washer. there's also a somewhat curved washer that goes between the cone washer and the castle nut, that also only goes on one way (domed side up so the only part of the curved washer that's touching the cone washer is the outside edge) if it weren't for GD pointing this out to me and going wrecking yarding with him and seeing the difference between a good cone washer and a bad one, I woulda never known the difference. but it makes a huge difference, and it doesn't take much to wreck a cone washer. basic rule of thumb is, if the cone washer has ever come lose at any time, it's wrecked and should be replaced, the slightest little ridge on the side of a cone washer renders them useless. Edited August 18, 2012 by Stubies Subie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj421 Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 (edited) Replacing the axle nut will do nothing but tighten it up and eliminate the noise for a couple miles. The real problem is the cone washer which is really just a mechanical taper-lock as seen on a variety of industrial applications but rarely in the automotive world. From those pictures I can tell your cone washer is trashed - the gap isn't closed up enough so its not gripping the axle shaft properly. Also looks like your spring washer is upside down. GD Yeah, I figured if my cone washer was worn, the noises would come back. I just wish I could buy it elsewhere than the dealership. I went to the junkyard and pretty much everyone took the cone washers off the Soobies that were there. I managed to get one, but the bag I put it in developed a hole and now the washer is sitting somewhere on the ground in the junkyard. Really? The spring washer is upside down? I honestly can't tell, haha. The passenger side is also probably upside down. I heard that aftermarket spring washers say "OUT" on the side that goes out, haha. I'll flip 'em over when I get some new cone washers. Well, even if my cone washers are trashed, I'm just glad it's not my bearings. I'd love it if I could find a place to get the cone washer(s) for cheap, haha. Although the passenger side doesn't make as much noise as the driver's side, I believe I need to replace both. basic rule of thumb is, if the cone washer has ever come lose at any time, it's wrecked and should be replaced, the slightest little ridge on the side of a cone washer renders them useless. I guess if they're so easy to damage and there are so few at the local junkyard, I might as well dish out the money and buy a brand new one from the dealership. Edited August 18, 2012 by jj421 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubies Subie Posted August 18, 2012 Author Share Posted August 18, 2012 I guess if they're so easy to damage and there are so few at the local junkyard, I might as well dish out the money and buy a brand new one from the dealership. talk to ShawnW, he'll sell you good used ones for a couple bucks each or so, I think he also has new for a fare price. the last time I went wrecking yarding for some cone washers, out of something like 6 or 7 loyale's I only found 3 good cone washers, when you consider that each car at one time had 4 good ones, I only came up with 3 out of a possible 24 to 28? that's a really bad number, if I could only find 3 good ones out of 24, it leaves me to wonder, how many bad ones are on the road? granted a couple of those cars were already missing the cone washers when I showed up at the wrecking yard, but at least a third the cars I looked at were missing the concave washer that goes between the castle nut and the cone washer, (none of those cone washers were any good) I think that's proof that those concave washers and cone washers are something people don't pay a whole lot of attention to and they should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj421 Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Okay, I'll talk to him. I got like five 4WD and two USMB decals from him for $5 a few weeks ago, haha. Last time I went to the Pick-N-Pull, there were only two Loyales, one GL, and one GL10. Only one Loyale had the cone washer still on both wheels. One axle nut was torqued way too much for me to get off and the other, well, as I said, I lost it somewhere. But it probably wasn't very good. I guess people here in the Seattle area take all the common things from the few older gen Subarus that end up wrecked, such as cone washers, trunk struts (even though I found a good pair), and other things. I'm sure there are a number of failing washers on the road, but I'm sure there are a lot of good ones. I'd say a 50/50 split. There are probably a lot of cars where the washer is failing, but the wheel area isn't making noise yet, so people are unaware. I'll talk to ShawnW. I think I'll spend the extra bit and get some new ones from him. But I gotta do that in two weeks. Sneaking through emissions, getting the car registered, and paying car insurance is important right now, haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 I'm in the same boat with the cone washer deal. I scored one off a loyale I grabbed a hub off of last week (the ONLY loyale in a junkyard in the entire state of NJ.) It was in decent shape. I do need to go to the dealer and order some of them though. Good things to have before they're all gone. Tried shawnw @ retro-roo. He hasn't gotten back to me. Maybe he's busy, perhaps I'll try sending him another note here soon. Good luck in the hunt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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