Suspension improvements for Subaru Loyale

[Ionstorm66]

I ordered from rock auto as they have clearance on the struts and the springs!

 

I used API 270470595 coil springs and Monroe 71352 struts. Total was $82 shipped!

 

My only issue was the Monroe struts come with a cover for the rod. It has a metal washer to hold it on the top of the strut rod. The problem is this washer is larger than the relief in the Subaru cap. This causes you to be unable to install the top bushings. I omitted the cover, and ordered some generic ones. I initially thought the spring was too long, and cut one. I did test the second without cut just to see how much I lost.

You can see the cover on the right:

Stock vs Uncut and Struts:

 

My wagon started with the right touching the bump stop due to my tools in the back.

 

Numbers: 

• 24.5" Before
• 27" Cut
• 28.25" Uncut

 

Stock

Cut spring:

Uncut:

Edited October 22, 2020 by Ionstorm66
fixed pictures.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

Appreciated Sir,

Photos are not displaying on your post.

Could you fix them, please?

Kind Regards.

[Hex1]

Would you use the same 4Runner front struts and springs on a 4wd Loyale? Or the same struts you used but with taller springs? I don’t want to lose that 2 inches on clearance.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Hex1

[Ionstorm66]

On 10/20/2020 at 3:44 AM, Hex1 said:

Would you use the same 4Runner front struts and springs on a 4wd Loyale? Or the same struts you used but with taller springs? I don’t want to lose that 2 inches on clearance.

Mine is 4WD. They gave me 2.5 inchs of lift with the cut. 3.75 uncut. Its a lot of lift actually. I need to do the fronts to see how level it ends up being. The cart drives like a DREAM loaded now. I have 500# of tools in the back, and now it never even gets close to bottoming out. Where before I would bottom out going over the tiny bumps.

 

Also with the cut you can install the springs without a compressor, which is extremely handy, as it was a royal pain to install the uncut ones. I had to hammer in and out my compressor, as it was too big to fit between the coils when it was installed on the strut. With the spring cut you can put some force on the strut mount and start the nut easily.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Ionstorm66

[bratlife]

Hi there. I am trying to figure out what is best to use for the KYB shocks. I am hoping that you, or others still check this page from time tot time. 

I have found some of the Honda coil springs form a yonke, but I would prefer a new part for the shock absorbers, due to the nature of how they function. It seems there is no longer availability of the KYB 341232 shock absorbers. I would prefer the KYB brand, and was told that the new part number for them is KG 9025. Does anybody know anything about this? Can anybody confirm the these would be the same, or at least if they would fit? or if there is any difference, like travel length, etc. ?

Or, does anybody have any more info or experience using the front shock absorbers from the Nissan 300zx mentioned earlier in this thread? 

I'm trying to find something that would be more durable and stiffer than stock, but without lifting it too much, just to go easy on those cv axles. I'm thing 1" to 1.5" would be fine but trying to keep it under 2" of lift. I know I could cut the Honda springs down, but am concerned they would bottom out since the Toyota shocks only have about 4" of travel. The Nissan ones have more it sounds like, but if they are like the 2wd Subaru ones, the perch would be higher, giving it more lift, and therefore I would be cutting a lot of the springs down. Hope this kinda makes sense. 

Thank you in advance for any info you might have!

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

On 3/4/2021 at 9:26 PM, bratlife said:

... I'm trying to find something that would be more durable and stiffer than stock, but without lifting it too much...

it is pretty Easy, install Used front Honda accord (4 cyl.) coil Springs on the original Subaru Rear shock absorbers.

That's it.   I drove my subie like that for years, prior to switch to the 4Runner / Prado front Shock absorbers.

Kind Regards.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

Full Writeup + part numbers & photos:

Kind Regards.

[bratlife]

22 hours ago, Loyale 2.7 Turbo said:

Full Writeup + part numbers & photos:

Kind Regards.

Thanks a bunch, and thanks so much for that write up. I’ve been referencing it a bunch. I have a couple questions still though, if you have the time to answer. 

I have used springs from a Honda, from a yonke. And I bought new struts for a prado/4Runner from your parts numbers. If I use those together, will that give much lift? If so, can I just cut a turn or two off the coil? That way it will remain stiffer and stronger, but without too much lift? Or will that not work since the Toyota struts have less travel? 
 

My other question is about the front coils. Are the Kia or Ford tempo preferable? Is there much of a difference between either of them as far as you know?
I have a pair from a Kia, like you write about. But I can’t get them off of the Kia struts, so I was thinking maybe I would order a new set.  If I order new ones will they be too stiff? And again, would either one be better than the other?

Also, does that seem to give the front even a tiny lift? 
 

Muchísimas gracias! 
Si lo prefiere, puedo enviarse preguntas en español, pero me parece que su inglés es mucho mejor que mi español jaja. 

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

2 hours ago, bratlife said:

... I have used springs from a Honda, from a yonker. And I bought new struts for a prado/4Runner from your parts numbers. If I use those together, will that give much lift? ...

That setup will raise the rear of your Subie, Two inches.

if you use the Accord coil springs on the original Subaru Shock Absorbers, the ride will be softer than using the Prado / 4Runner Shock Absorbers, and the Lift will be Less, if your Subie is 4WD and you use its stock 4wd shock absorbers. 

All the details are explained on my Writeup.

 

2 hours ago, bratlife said:

... can I just cut a turn or two off the coil? That way it will remain stiffer and stronger, but without too much lift? Or will that not work since the Toyota struts have less travel? ...

I advice to not cut the coil spring as it will make the ride even stiffer.

The Travel of the Toyota Prado / 4Runner shock absorber is Enough for the Subie,

you'll never notice the difference, except for the stiffer ride in the back.

 

 

2 hours ago, bratlife said:

... My other question is about the front coils. Are the Kia or Ford tempo preferable? ...

Ford Tempo, for the standard EA82 engined Subies, they are the Maximum amount that you can safely increase the Stiffness without loosing any stability nor control of the ride; the Kia ones are too much stiffer and the idea of mention them, was for the rides with bigger engines swapped in, plus added weight in the front from winches, etc...

 

 

2 hours ago, bratlife said:

... Also, does that seem to give the front even a tiny lift? ...

Yes, but the Lift on the front is tiny, as the front shock absorbers have a limited travel and they almost top off with the 4 cyl. Tempo front coil springs.

I suggest you to avoid the use of the 6 cyl. Tempo coil springs, as they will be too stiff.

 

 

2 hours ago, bratlife said:

... I have a pair from a Kia, like you write about. But I can’t get them off of the Kia struts...

Please be Careful when you remove a Coil Spring from the Shock Absorber, as the thing is placed there using a special compression tool, otherwise it can jump on you and cause severe injuries; so please be Careful. 

Remember that I wrote that the Kia coil Springs are way too stiff for the regular Subie, so I suggest you to avoid using them.

 

 

2 hours ago, bratlife said:

Thanks a bunch, and thanks so much for that write up. I’ve been referencing it a bunch...

You're Welcome! 

 

 

2 hours ago, bratlife said:

... Muchísimas gracias! 
Si lo prefiere, puedo enviarse preguntas en español, pero me parece que su inglés es mucho mejor que mi español jaja. 

¡Muchas Gracias!

Prefiero el ingles, debido a que la mayoria de nuestros compañeros en el foro, no hablan español.

Saludos cordiales desde el Caribe, Honduras.

 

Greetings from Honduras.

[Ionstorm66]

So after 6 months something is definitely wrong in the rear end.

The handing is very poor, and on anything other than a minor bump it slams in the back. 

It isn't hitting the bump stops. I chalked them and got no transfer.

I think either the springs are compressing fully and binding, or the struts are bottoming out. Don't really know how to check for either, but it's worst than the stock setup hitting the bump stops.

[1 Lucky Texan]

look for a cracked spring? I've read once of a weird failure where the two broken ends would match back up after separating.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

On 4/7/2021 at 8:57 PM, Ionstorm66 said:

... it's worst than the stock setup hitting the bump stops.

That is due to this:

On 9/25/2020 at 5:11 PM, Ionstorm66 said:

... I initially thought the spring was too long, and cut ...

You cut off part of the Springs! 

On 10/21/2020 at 8:44 PM, Ionstorm66 said:

Mine is 4WD. They gave me 2.5 inchs of lift with the cut...

On 4/7/2021 at 8:57 PM, Ionstorm66 said:

... on anything other than a minor bump it slams in the back ...

 

When you cut a coil spring, you loose movement because the weight of the car goues to less long coil, and the ride becomes rigid as hell, as if your subie doesnt have coil springs. That is the reason why I always adviced against cutting coil springs at all...

On 4/4/2021 at 5:01 PM, Loyale 2.7 Turbo said:

... I advice to not cut the coil spring as it will make the ride even stiffer....

...the longer they are, the softer the ride will be, as they distribute weight onto a longer coil springs.

 

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0303-springs-ride-quality/

Kind Regards.

[Ionstorm66]

10 hours ago, Loyale 2.7 Turbo said:

That is due to this:

You cut off part of the Springs! 

 

When you cut a coil spring, you loose movement because the weight of the car goues to less long coil, and the ride becomes rigid as hell, as if your subie doesnt have coil springs. That is the reason why I always adviced against cutting coil springs at all...

...the longer they are, the softer the ride will be, as they distribute weight onto a longer coil springs.

 

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0303-springs-ride-quality/

Kind Regards.

The springs aren't bottoming out. They aren't fully compressing, and the bump stops aren't being hit. The struts aren't bottoming out either. Cutting a spring only worsens the ride when they bottom out.

 

What actually was happing is the bushings were 100% clapped out. This was causing the bottom spring perch to hit the body, because the agliment was super super cambered in. I have replaced every bit of rubber in the suspension with superpro polys. It's amazing how much better the car feels.

 

 

[Ionstorm66]

Also to add to the cut springs. Cutting the spring dose lower it's total weight capacity. They are rated in pounds per inch of compression.

Taking a stock spring and cutting it to lower a car will result in it bottoming out on every bump due to the lowered weight capacity.

Taking a longer, stiffer than stock spring, cutting it down is not the same.

 

The stock springs are 196 lb/in, the accord springs I used are 279 lb/in. Stock springs are 12 inches, accord 13, cut to 12. My cut springs are the same free height as the stock springs, but 70% stiffer! Of course they will give you a worst ride if the car weight isn't enough to compress them, but my travel is the same as stock.

[carfreak85]

Cut springs aren't some inherently evil modification, but it's cheap and easy so a lot of people try it.  It's also easy to get wrong, which gives it a bad wrap.

Cutting a spring makes it stiffer (more load carrying capacity) because you are essentially shortening the lever arm that is wound into a coiled shape.  But it also, obviously, makes the free and compressed lengths shorter.

I cut one half coil out of the front springs on my EA81T wagon and it rides beautifully.  It only bottoms out on the sort of bumps that you would expect any car to bottom out on.  The spring doesn't feel like it's overpowering the KYB GR2 strut, but again, I was very conservative with how much I cut off.

[idosubaru]

Three potential issues:

On 9/25/2020 at 7:11 PM, Ionstorm66 said:

I used API 270470595 coil springs and Monroe 71352 struts. 

If it's not OEM or KYB struts - then anything is possible - you got 6 months out of them in a *custom* rig, sounds. Unfortunately many, even known brands, suck on Subaru's for some reason.  It's so common that I can't begin to decipher whether Monroe has a chance of beating those horrible odds after 6 months. 

On 9/25/2020 at 7:11 PM, Ionstorm66 said:

Also with the cut 

 

 

EA82 springs can be cut and used in the rear, it wasn't uncommon years ago in specific situations and I never heard of anyone having issues. But that's with stock/Subaru springs.

when i've cut springs before the ends are often at nonideal angles that don't seat into the form factor of the perch or top hat and they're prone to make noise, want to slide around under certain loading conditions once installed.  i've never seen one fail or pop out but i don't trust them enough to daily drive it either.  

Was there any chance these aftermarket springs had odd seating due to lack of fitment where they seat?

On 9/25/2020 at 7:11 PM, Ionstorm66 said:

Also with the cut you can install the springs without a compressor, which is extremely handy, as it was a royal pain to install the uncut ones. I had to hammer in and out my compressor, as it was too big to fit between the coils when it was installed on the strut. With the spring cut you can put some force on the strut mount and start the nut easily.

Strut springs should not be able to be installed by hand - Subaru rear springs aren't terribly loaded when installed relative to the front, but if they can be installed easily by hand this sounds like an obvious thing to check. 

You're saying you have strut assembly issues - it has to be a failed installation, strut, or coil spring issues....those last two seem quite possible from reading on a screen...which has limitations of course..

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

1 hour ago, carfreak85 said:

... Cutting a spring makes it stiffer (more load carrying capacity) because you are essentially shortening the lever arm that is wound into a coiled shape.  But it also, obviously, makes the free and compressed lengths shorter...

Exactly!

 

42 minutes ago, idosubaru said:

... Strut springs should not be able to be installed by hand ... if they can be installed easily by hand this sounds like an obvious thing to check...

I Agree. 

 

I always suggested to obtain the coil springs Used, from junk yards, thus secures that they aren't as stiff as new ones, to compensate part of the increased rate of the spring;  I've had better results with used coil springs rather than new ones; using them always uncut.

Kind Regards.

[idosubaru]

Focus on the struts. One or both are probably trashed if you’re sure they were properly assembled and installed. 

[1 Lucky Texan]

checked the top of the struts for oil?

[Ionstorm66]

Idk how y'all are missing the face that the cut springs are the same length as the stock springs. The Accord springs have a longer uncompressed length than the stock ones. I only cut 1.5 coils off, making the same length.

If I didn't cut the accord springs they were impossible to install on the Toyota struts. After compressing the springs and installing on the strut, there isn't enough room between the coils to remove the compressor. I guess I didn't really explain that correctly. So unless I wanted to scrap a compressor for each strut, they would never of worked uncut.

Also the springs and struts ARE NOT bottoming out. The spring perch was hitting the body because the bushings were clapped out. After replacing all 4 rear control arm bushings the slamming is gone. I will post some pictures later of the damage to the body from the spring perch.

 

[idosubaru]

35 minutes ago, Ionstorm66 said:

Idk how y'all are missing the face that the cut springs

Not "all" of us were. Carfreak wasn't, and I wasn't focused on the cutting of the springs - just the seating and installation.  Any time you say "cut springs" people in automotive world loose their heads and tend to relay anecdotes more than personal  experience. 

So it was just the bushings?  You didn't have any tire wear with bushings that bad?

[Ionstorm66]

1 hour ago, idosubaru said:

Not "all" of us were. Carfreak wasn't, and I wasn't focused on the cutting of the springs - just the seating and installation.  Any time you say "cut springs" people in automotive world loose their heads and tend to relay anecdotes more than personal  experience. 

So it was just the bushings?  You didn't have any tire wear with bushings that bad?

Tire wear was not terrible. Just burnt the outside corners off. 

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

On 4/15/2021 at 7:11 AM, Ionstorm66 said:

... If I didn't cut the accord springs they were impossible to install on the Toyota struts...

Unless you used other Toyota Shock Absorber than the one I listed, I don't see any imposibilities,

I've installed said Toyota Shock Absorber with Honda coil Springs several times so far,

each time flawlessly, without the need of cutting anything.

Kind Regards.

[Ionstorm66]

9 hours ago, Loyale 2.7 Turbo said:

Unless you used other Toyota Shock Absorber than the one I listed, I don't see any imposibilities,

I've installed said Toyota Shock Absorber with Honda coil Springs several times so far,

each time flawlessly, without the need of cutting anything.

Kind Regards.

It isn't a issue with the shock, they are the same length as the stock ones for spring perch to top mount. It's the springs. Uncut they coils are touching each other when installed. This makes it impossible to remove the compressor.

[Ionstorm66]

Got everything swapped over and it's all good now. My bushing were totally shagged out. I also trimmed the spring perches on the rear struts just to be sure.

 

You can see the undercoat on the perch.

 

Here is all the rubbing that was happening. When I was on a corner, and hit a bump the perch was going under the lip and slamming.

 

All the rear bushings looked like this. This is with the car off the ground, so it had to get worse with some weight.

Edited April 23, 2021 by Ionstorm66