Suspension improvements for Subaru Loyale

[Ionstorm66]

I did my front struts with the second gen KIA springs. Fit like a glove. I did notice my new struts are longer. The old ones are the original Subaru 4WD, and new ones are 4WD Gabriel

Edited April 23, 2021 by Ionstorm66

[Ionstorm66]

So with the new struts and springs my camber is way off but it drives and rides like a dream compared to what it used to be. The front struts being taller is causing the rear to be about an inch lower than the front now, I will have to fab up a small lift for the rear.

 

I need to figure something out for the camber, maybe some adjustable strut tops? Or redrill the subframe.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

Appreciated Ionstorm66, the images are not displaying on the forum.

I bet they're posted from a site that requires the viewers to be logged in.

 

Regarding this:

On 4/17/2021 at 6:48 AM, Ionstorm66 said:

...Uncut they coils are touching each other when installed. This makes it impossible to remove the compressor.

Such situation never happened with the various installs of the front Honda coil springs onto the front Toyota shock absorbers that I've done, not only for my Subie, but for a bunch on other ones and also, other fellow members from this USMB worldwide has done it without cutting a single turn from the coil spring nor having the issue that you describe. 

So, this makes me think that you used other Coil Springs, not the ones that I listed on my writeup.

Here, a couple of photos from this same thread, as example:

This is my setup, uncut coil springs has enough free space between turns of the coil, to allow a normal suspension behaviour, see:

 

Also, NakedBuell shared this Photo of his install, see:

You can see his post, here:

So, if the turns of the coil springs were touching each other, it means that you used the Wrong coil spring, not the listed one.

Unless something went wrong with the install...

Kind Regards.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

On 4/19/2021 at 8:04 AM, Ionstorm66 said:

I did my front struts with the second gen KIA springs. Fit like a glove...

How it feels the Front suspension, stiffer than stock but not way too stiff?

 

The images are displaying alright now, Thank you for fixing them. 

Kind Regards.

[Ionstorm66]

8 hours ago, Loyale 2.7 Turbo said:

How it feels the Front suspension, stiffer than stock but not way too stiff?

 

The images are displaying alright now, Thank you for fixing them. 

Kind Regards.

Both front and rear are perfect now. Not to harsh, but no swaying or bottoming out on the street. I just need to fix my front camber. Don't know why the new struts are that much taller, but they are lol.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

Good  !!!

Share photos of your Subie with us, to see how tall it sits now.

Kind Regards.

[Ionstorm66]

On 4/24/2021 at 5:09 PM, Loyale 2.7 Turbo said:

Good  !!!

Share photos of your Subie with us, to see how tall it sits now.

Kind Regards.

I need to figure you the camber, or I'll have to swap the old stuff back in. It already burnt the corners off both front tires in a week! Granted they weren't new tires.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Ionstorm66

[1 Lucky Texan]

the WRX and other morosports guys often use camber plates, and sometimes higher 'eccentricity' camber bolts to increase negative camber.

[Ionstorm66]

51 minutes ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

the WRX and other morosports guys often use camber plates, and sometimes higher 'eccentricity' camber bolts to increase negative camber.

I bought Subaru camber plates but they don't fit in the strut tower. There is no camber bolt that works on these. The crossmember bolt is too small for any off the shelf eccentric bolt, and the strut slip fits into the knuckle. 

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

2 hours ago, Ionstorm66 said:

...

Your Subie Looks Great, however the Kia Sephia / Spectra seems to be too much coil springs for the Subie,

Because the Subie has an Aluminium Block, Head and intake, while the Kia has cast Iron Block, Head and both manyfolds...

Kia's front coil springs are for extra heavy front... Those are ideal on engine swapped Subies plus winch,  heavy bumper, etc...

The Ford Tempo coil springs are a midway between both and might not push up the shock absorber too far high...

Also, those shock absorbers that you used, has the longer travel that I've seen on a Subaru GL / Loyale Front. Do you have their part number?

 

50 minutes ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

the WRX and other morosports guys often use camber plates, and sometimes higher 'eccentricity' camber bolts to increase negative camber.

Good idea, you shall install camber correction plates if you want to keep that setup; but also the subie will need to raise a little more the rear.

Finally you'll need to Drop the rear differential and the engine's crossmember to save axles.

At this altitute should be needed an extension for the steering shaft and for the brake lines...

Kind Regards.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

5 minutes ago, Ionstorm66 said:

I bought Subaru camber plates but they don't fit in the strut tower. There is no camber bolt that works on these. The crossmember bolt is too small for any off the shelf eccentric bolt, and the strut slip fits into the knuckle. 

Other USMB members have successfully done installs of camber plates:

https://www.rallysportdirect.com/part/top-hats/whi-kca335-whiteline-com-c-caster-camber-adjusting-strut-mount

Kind Regards.

[Ionstorm66]

6 minutes ago, Loyale 2.7 Turbo said:

Your Subie Looks Great, however the Kia Sephia / Spectra seems to be too much coil springs for the Subie,

Because the Subie has an Aluminium Block, Head and intake, while the Kia has cast Iron Block, Head and both manyfolds...

Kia's front coil springs are for extra heavy front... Those are ideal on engine swapped Subies plus winch,  heavy bumper, etc...

The Ford Tempo coil springs are a midway between both and might not push up the shock absorber too far high...

Also, those shock absorbers that you used, has the longer travel that I've seen on a Subaru GL / Loyale Front. Do you have their part number?

 

Good idea, you shall install camber correction plates if you want to keep that setup; but also the subie will need to raise a little more the rear.

Finally you'll need to Drop the rear differential and the engine's crossmember to save axles.

At this altitute should be needed an extension for the steering shaft and for the brake lines...

Kind Regards.

There is no lift kit in the car, just new struts and springs. Also the whiteline rubber camber plates have terrible reviews, so I went with the more race style aluminum ones. Issue is the adjustment bolts sit under the top of the strut tower, and I'm not going to chop the body to make them fit.

 

I may have found a xt6 to swap to 5 lug if I can bring my self to trash all the parts and work I just threw at the car!

[Ionstorm66]

Also I haven't noticed any issues with the heavier springs, the opposite. I don't have the winch on the front at the moment, but with all the spoob in the car it rides like a dream compared to before. It use to bottom out over every bump.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

1 minute ago, Ionstorm66 said:

... I may have found a xt6 to swap to 5 lug if I can bring my self to trash all the parts and work I just threw at the car!

There's no need to trash anything. 

I know that there is no lift kit on your Subie, only new coil springs and shock absorbers.

Somehow I told you that the Kia's coil springs are too stiff for the standard EA82 engined Subies; the Ford Tempo coil springs are the best bet; so, if you mix a pair of shock absorbers whose travel is longer / taller than Stock ones, with stiffer / taller coil springs, then the increased tallness will be too high and takes off the camber.

But:

5 minutes ago, Ionstorm66 said:

Also I haven't noticed any issues with the heavier springs, the opposite ... the car it rides like a dream compared to before ...

if you like the Ride, you only need to be Sure that the added stiffness will not make you to loose control of the car in unpaved / bumpy roads; because a too stiff suspension might make the whole front to bump and loose direction. You can do test drives CAREFULLY on unpaved roads at slow speeds, Please be Careful.

 

10 minutes ago, Ionstorm66 said:

...  I went with the more race style aluminum ones. Issue is the adjustment bolts sit under the top of the strut tower, and I'm not going to chop the body to make them fit...

Aluminium is Better. There should be a way to place those Camber correction plates, as I've seen aluminium ones on EA82 Subies, before:

Kind Regards.

[Ionstorm66]

6 hours ago, Loyale 2.7 Turbo said:

There's no need to trash anything. 

I know that there is no lift kit on your Subie, only new coil springs and shock absorbers.

Somehow I told you that the Kia's coil springs are too stiff for the standard EA82 engined Subies; the Ford Tempo coil springs are the best bet; so, if you mix a pair of shock absorbers whose travel is longer / taller than Stock ones, with stiffer / taller coil springs, then the increased tallness will be too high and takes off the camber.

But:

if you like the Ride, you only need to be Sure that the added stiffness will not make you to loose control of the car in unpaved / bumpy roads; because a too stiff suspension might make the whole front to bump and loose direction. You can do test drives CAREFULLY on unpaved roads at slow speeds, Please be Careful.

 

Aluminium is Better. There should be a way to place those Camber correction plates, as I've seen aluminium ones on EA82 Subies, before:

Kind Regards.

You can see in that picture the screws to set the camber are against the top of the tower. In order to get my camber set right, the screws would be under the top of the strut tower. Also these style tops lower the car over an inch.

[Ionstorm66]

Also I have had it hooning down dirt roads, in the sand, and in the mud. No issues with the front bouncing. There is still 2 inches of down travel from the standing ride height.

[carfreak85]

17 hours ago, Ionstorm66 said:

You can see in that picture the screws to set the camber are against the top of the tower. In order to get my camber set right, the screws would be under the top of the strut tower. Also these style tops lower the car over an inch.

This style of camber plate RAISES the front of the car.  The OEM strut mounts protrude up into the engine bay, while these plates are flat and actually don't protrude into the engine bay at all.

[Ionstorm66]

9 hours ago, carfreak85 said:

This style of camber plate RAISES the front of the car.  The OEM strut mounts protrude up into the engine bay, while these plates are flat and actually don't protrude into the engine bay at all.

The factory ones have the mount for the strut lower. The rubber protrudes into the engine bay, but the actual mount point for the strut is lower. With the camber plates, the top of the strut bearing is above the top of the plate. With the rubber style it is below the plate.

[carfreak85]

You are correct lonstorm66, I just popped outside to look at the twins and, while the difference is less than a half inch, you are correct.  The clamping surface in the stock mount IS the lowest point of the mount, where the camber plate doesn't sit quite as far below the strut tower.

My statement stands for OEM EJ front strut mounts, but OEM EA82 front strut mounts are indeed different.

[Ionstorm66]

So I have had terrible luck with any of the 4runner rear struts, they are still bending or blowing out. I have ran the MONROE 71352, KYB 341232 and GABRIEL G51077. The springs I have tried at the API 270470595 cut and uncut, MOOG CC248 and some used Toyotas which were WAY to stiff lol. After about 5-10k miles they have blown all the oil out, with the KYB literally exploding on me. Sounded like a gun shot!

I think the issue is im bottoming out the struts while wheeling, as the stock bump stop is too short. I guess I need to find a way to drop the bump stop down some, but I can't seem to be able to remove the stock one.

Also might need a stiffer spring. The Accord springs are around 280 lb/in and the toyotas are 595! So I need something in the 350-450 range to make the car not bottom out?

 

The front springs/struts are amazing still, no issues there.

[errantalmond]

Here comes the next guy, I‘m planning to follow your lead on these suspension changes, as well. My stock 4wd rear strut blew out a while back… 1990 Loyale s/r 5MT.

I‘ve ordered the KYB Toyota struts and am getting all the other parts together.

Here‘s the plan, input would be appreciated. I‘ve read through just about everything multiple times now.

 

rear: 
 

KYB 418232 Toyota 4Runner struts 

stock Subaru coils for now, until figure out the rear diff drop to accommodate stiffer coils (will switch to used Honda Accord coils)

New strut boots

 

front:

KYB 233023/233022 GL/loyale 2wd front struts OR XT front struts

Used 1990-1994 Ford tempo coils

 

I‘m still figuring out how to properly use all of the Subaru resources online - cross-referencing with other makes and model part specifications is a bit beyond me. So, I have some questions for the experts.

Here are the front and read suspension pages of the parts catalog for reference (from classic Subaru network). If the terrible formatting is confusing you, refer to the page numbers at the top right:

Front suspension, diagram and part numbers

===========

============
============

=========

 

 

rear suspension, 4wd:

==========

===========

 

 

 

1) Ok, so if I swap in the Toyota struts, apart from fitting the m12 holes in the strut to the m10 mounting holes on my car, and getting the coils onto the struts, do I need to change any other parts? (Numbers 4-16 in the REAR SUSPENSION diagram)

I want to put new boots on, and replace worn parts, but are all of those parts transferable to the Toyota struts even though the rod is thicker than the Subaru strut‘s rods?

2) If I put the stock Subaru coils on the toyota struts, that will work but isn‘t ideal, correct? Adding the Honda Accord coils will require dropping the diff to preserve the CVS, correct?

 

3) what are the spec differences for the various Subaru front struts for 2wd ea82s? How are the wagon/gl/dl/xt 2wd front struts different from each other? If no one has this info I can figure it out myself…would rather not though!!

4) If I swap my 4wd front struts with 2wd front struts (they are longer, correct?), everything else stays the same, correct? Do I need to change any of the other parts on the FRONT SUSPENSION diagram? It seems not.

 

5) If I swap my 4wd front struts for 2wd front struts, I can reuse my current coils, correct? 
replacing them with used Ford tempo coils will stiffen and slightly raise the front compared to using the stock coils, correct?

6) with Toyota struts and Honda Accord coils in the rear, the rear will be raised about two inches - if I don‘t lift the front for a while to go with it, will that put unwanted stress on anything?

7) which of the models that this parts catalog lists is closest to my car? It does not list loyale, only the older l-series names, even though mine is a 1990. where they producing dl‘s, gl’s, and loyales in 1990 or is that the exact same thing? my understanding is that I should look at 1990 S/R 5MT DL parts in this catalog for my 1990 S/R 5MT Loyale?

Thanks a million, lots of pics to come

 

[errantalmond]

Ok, here is an update. 
It looks like the 2wd front struts (with longer travel) for the dl and gl station wagon are the 7th and 9th entries on page 232 posted above, p/ns 21032GA 431/441. according to partinfo.org, here are the equivalent parts, so have fun tracking yours down, I know I will:

======

 

jon

[errantalmond]

Another update:

1) I understand now that none of the models in this catalog are exactly the loyale, for example the oil pump part numbers listed here go from 15010AA001 to 15010AA014, and the loyale oil pump part number is 15010AA016.

I believe the suspension components I cross-checked all have the same dimensions, but potentially different capabilities?

 

2) I sent Scott at SJR lift an email to figure out a lift kit for lowering the read diff and adding blocks to the front suspension. I need to reread the original suspension improvement writeup for details, but for now, I’d appreciate any thoughts on the height needed for the lift kit components. 
Will it be best to wait until the rear suspension is swapped out and measurements can be made directly, or do you folks have a pretty good idea of what’s needed already? 
I don’t fully understand the math of ride height as a factor of spring and strut combos, but I won’t mind doing it myself if someone can explain it….

Thanks.

Jon

[errantalmond]

4Runner struts arrived last night! Will add pics when I get home tonight. 
I’ve got questions…:

1) the skirt/base for the coil spring (a bell shaped piece of metal) seems to be press fit against a widened section of the shock absorber, but on one of the two that arrived, it is loose (I can slide it off the shock absorber).

it looks like it just needs to be pressed into its seat evenly, but I’m not sure how I’ll do that yet. (Whacking it into place with a pipe and a hammer? I’m pretty sure it needs to be snug before I put the coil spring on it, because the pressure of the coil spring, once assembled, might not be enough to push it firmly into place, and it may not be pressed down evenly.)

Any ideas?

2) The ‘helper’ and other parts that hold the top of the coil spring: do I need to replace those oem parts with ones that are specific to the 4Runner shock absorber? I’m not sure if there are other parts in general I need to swap out?

please advise

again, pics tonight.

thanks!!

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

Firstly, Merry Christmas to all! 

I see that you have many questions, and I must tell that almost all of them

were already answered on the original Writeup Thread,

please take a look at it, read it carefully and then come back if you have Further Questions.

Here it is: ~►