GlenSz Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 i just bought a 4WD Loyal wagon and after bringing it to a Subaru mechanic, he said it's leaking in a bunch of spots and the whole engine would need to be removed and have all the seals redone. the rear differential is also leaking and seal needs to be replaced. not sure if the engine knocking (it's pretty loud) is due to the engine not having decent seals or if it could be an additional problem, maybe a valve or gasket cover, piston problem, etc. it's also overheating when i take it on the highway or run it above 50mph for any length of time. it tops out at about 65mph/4200rpm and not sure if this is due to the fact that it's just a 3-speed automatic and not meant to go any faster, or if in the shape the engine is in, it's just working way too hard to get to that speed and that's what's causing it to heat up. also, the strut mounts are very worn and need to be replaced (maybe the struts themselves too?). the brakes feel like a router needs to be replaced cause it as i'm braking to a stop, it's rhythmically hesitating, as if one spot is worn, like if i had a bubble in a bike tire and i could feel it every time it went around. when i was looking for a car to buy after selling my last one, i decided i wanted a Loyale cause i really liked the modest look of a wagon body style, but also needed the 4X4 capabilities to buy as special permit to drive onto a beach near where i live. i don't know of any other 4X4 wagons that aren't even older and harder to work on and find parts for. I love the Civic wagovan and similar vehicles i've seen on this forum, but they seem like just as much time, work and money to restore to an everyday drivable car, and i already bought this Loyale which, if nothing else, has a pretty clean body, interior and exterior. just wondering if any Loyale experts and/or fans out there have some words of wisdom for me. i really like many things about this car, and went outta the way to find one as a starter to get running better, make nicer and eventually modify a little to make it a little more off-road worthy, so i planned on spending some money, not a lot, but enough to buy another used car with, and i'm having serious reservations about it becoming a money-pit. before i start putting any money into it, i'd be very grateful to hear your opinions on whether or not to just cut my losses or to hope for the best and start getting this thing running in better shape. thanks much for all your honest advice, Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idasho Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 IMO if the body is straight and the rust isnt too bad, any subaru is worth the time and $$ to bring it back. You just need to decide if it is worth it to YOU. As far as the seals go, yes, it is all MUCH easier with the engine removed. As for the overheating, it might be engine related (headgaskets) or the radiator simply needs to be replaced. The knocking... not so good. If it is indeed a knock, repair will require a complete motor tear-down. At that point you might as well rebuild the entire thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 The engine needs resealed, with new Head gaskets. The knocking is probably not rod knock, but valve clatter from leaking oil pump seals letting air into the oil. That will go away with a resealed engine. So no dealbreakers yet, but.... Nothing will fix the 3spds low gearing. The national speed limit was 55 when the car was built.....it wasn't made to do 70. Gotta consider how often will you need to be on the freeway. I know driving 55 on the freeway in newyork will get you the bird at best, and killed at worst. In Oregon, or anywhere without picky inspections....I would fix it. However, you are in New York....with inspections yearly, and over regulated, expensive Mechanics......and not alot of subarus in junkyards for parts. You need to decide if this car is gonna be worth it for you. If you do all the work yourself, it would be totally worth it. If you have to pay to have it fixed (and you will have to fix it if it fails inspection) it may not be worth it. I hate to steer anyone away from a subaru, so maybe just look for an older Impreza or legacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 The car is worth fixing, as long as the mechanic knows what to fix. The valve covers may indeed be leaking, but not to be confused with cam seals that may get over looked, as that is more likely the case. It is more efficient to pull the whole engine to fix all the seals. The engine is easy to remove, and is the preferred method for a lot of repairs. The subaru is much different than the average FWD car as far as a mechanic's experience may be concerned, but is actually much easier to work on than any transverse FWD engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Do YOU think that it is leaking a lot? Mechanics are paid to fix things, and an oil-dampened spot on a differential or transmission might be a leak to him rather than seepage. Are you leaving puddles? Spots of oil? Is your oil level always low? As anti-environmental as it sounds, adding a quart of oil every week or two is much cheaper than trying to fix a laundry-list of little leaks. Sit back, take a breath, and consider your options. Cars with the 3AT are plenty fast. My 88 SPFI sedan easily cruised at 80-85mph, accelerated well, and climbed hills decently. They are much maligned, mostly by those that have not had one bolted to a properly running engine. Sometimes they quit shifting when left in "D", this is a known, common problem that can be fixed by mere mortals. If engine speed at 55 is well over 3000rpm, the tranny probably did not shift up into 3rd gear. If it is sluggish from a dead stop, it may not have downshifted into 1st. Try shifting manually through the gears to see if it acts differently. Speaking of properly running: I didn't see mention of a year, so not sure if it is a true Loyale, in which case it should have Single-Point Fuel Injection (SPFI) or if it is older and might have a carburetor. Lots of things can lead to lack of power, foremost is being out of tune. Are the ignition components in good shape? Is the ignition timing set properly? On an SPFI, someone might have left connected the green diagnostic connectors near the wiper motor; if they did, your spark timing will remain fixed, probably causing poor freeway performance... and contributing to overheating. Overheating: The radiators tend to clog on the EA82/Loyales. To test, when the engine is at operating temperature place your hand on the radiator fins and feel for warmth, moving hand top to bottom (or vice versa). Warm bands are where coolant is flowing, cold bands are where the tubes are clogged. Gives you a quick idea of how good/bad the flow is.. Don't panic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 You will get a lot more out of this car by putting in the work than you would with some generic pontiac sunfire or chrysler k-car, buick cantury wagon, etc. Have your mechanic visit this message board! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Your location says New York New York. Are you in the city? I'm right across the river and would love to give a look-over if you're nearby. Does it seem to be leaking a lot? Obvious puddles on the ground where it was parked? The gearing, 42k @ 65, that's normal. What isn't normal is topping out at 65 though. Click my user-name and you'll see a picture of a Loyale with the same transmission doing 100. (At 6,000 rpm:headbang:) Overheating could be a nonfunctional fan or a clogged radiator/heater-core. If it's leaking small amounts of oil from the front of the engine, it's probably the cam seals. If you need to do the timing belts, the came seals should be done at the same time. Like others have said, it depends on what YOU feel it would be worth. Please know that if you decide it is NOT worth it to you and you decide to get rid of the car, I would be very interested. Also like others have said, most of the times these vehicles are worth the trouble, especially if you can do some work yourself (incredibly easy to work on these cars) If the body is straight, and the rust is minimal, it's definitely worth it. How many miles are on this vehicle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 ...Overheating could be a nonfunctional fan or a clogged radiator/heater-core.... Overheating at low speed would point to non-functional fan: generally, the fan is irrelevant above about 35 mph. High speed overheating points to other things, like plugged radiator or worse. Turning on your heater to full heat/blower can help lower coolant temps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR_Loyale Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) I am the original owner of my 1993 Loyale. I will never forget when my car was at 83K miles I had taken it into the dealer (as I always did) for an oil change. The front desk person tried to convince me to get an entire rebuilt engine for $1500+labor costs due to all the leaks. I thought, what a crappy car that cannot go 100K miles without having to be rebuilt. Could have bought a Chevy if I wanted that ilk of car. I passed on that offer. Then later that day I spoke with my older wiser neighbor, just chatting. I mentioned what the dealer told me. My neighbor scoffed and said just to keep it topped up. Just common sense - he doesn't own any subies so he wasn't saying out of any brand loyalty. I took his advice and I am now at 145K. I quit taking it to the dealer because clearly they were just out for my money. I listen to a couple of radio shows on cars regularly (Tom Turner and Gregg's) here in the Seattle area. In conversations on the radio, the EA82 comes up (they refer to it as the 1.8) and they all seem to have nothing but good things too say about it. These aren't people who get paid to say nice things about Subaru's either. They are professional mechanics. I think Subaru is Japanese for "leaky machine". Or it may be small aluminum engines have this tendency for leaks as I know plenty of Honda owners with leaky engines as well. If you are willing to do the work, this is the place to visit. There are videos and complete steps for doing things as extensive as engine reseals to just the "mickey mouse" gasket (clears up the ticking) and timing belts. Also good camaraderie and encouragement. You couldn't possibly screw something up any worse than hasn't already been done. I am not a mechanic by trade. I wouldn't even count myself as mechanically inclined as most here. However, I was able to pull the engine, replaced the oil pump, water pump, rear main seal, cam seals, timing belts and clutch all myself. The EA82 is a non-interference engine which means you cannot really wreck it as the pistons cannot reach the valves even if you screw it up, which many posters have done and then fixed. Those posts teach you just as well as the ones where everything goes alright. I did about $2000 worth of mechanic work for about $600 in parts and my time of course. It took me a week because I was being careful and never did this before. I was lectured by my 90 year old father how I was going to screw up the thing once I started removing the timing belt while the removed engine was on the hoist. My satisfaction with him as my companion at first crank and test drive cannot be put into words. So if you do not like wrenching, or are unwilling to learn, then get rid of it and buy a new car because that is the only way to stay out of the mechanic's billing sheet - at least initially. If you are not made of money and willing to learn a new skill, you are perfectly suited to fix this yourself. Edited February 3, 2013 by MR_Loyale 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickNakorn Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 I've been using 'loyales' (called L-series here in UK) for over 20 years and can honestly say they are the best cars I've ever owned even though they've been a heap of trouble. Why? Because my work has been generally low-income stuff and I've bought a succession of very cheap and poorly maintained cars. In my experience, the Subaru's reputation for longevity and reliability meant that many owners (mostly farmers in the UK) ran them for 150,000 without so much as a service and then sold them to people like me. I've had several old 1.8 4x4 EA82 cars and mechanically they've all been fixable. it's their propensity to rust that lets them down on our heavily salted roads. Recently I've undertaken my first full rebuild of an EA82 - only worth it financially because they are rare as hens teeth here - and hope to have a hard-working car that will last me till I peg it. Even in bad shape I've always been able to cruise at, ahem, the legal limit and know for sure a good one will stay at 90 all day if you want it to. (though my speeding days are over Your Honour). Driving frugally around the lanes I get 40mpg but that goes down to 20 or less of you use the performance. So I would agree with previous posters that if you are handy with a spanner they are very good cars. Otherwise, let another enthusiast restore it to health. Follow workshop manual instructions and you'll find it all reasonably easy. best of luck! http://www.nagara.co.uk/carhome.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickNakorn Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Oh, and I meant to mention that they are great for seeing the countryside too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinky26 Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 +1 with what everybody else has said here. I pulled my first engine myself this week, oh my what fun that was:headbang:, I will do it again in a heart beat if needed. The hardest thing to deal with IMO is getting the old gaskets off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbosubarubrat Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 resealing a engine is not hard at all if : #1 you know what your doing #2 have all the tools and equipment to do it #3 have a factory manual for all the specs. #4 ask questions on here also its a good idea to replace hoses and stuff like that, that wear out from age when the engine is out. im resealing a ea81t motor right now and its super easy just time conuming from me cleaning and painting everything:rolleyes: if i where you. i would ask myself do i realy like this car and do i really want to put this much money into it? if you dont like it or dont want to put the money into it sell it and let somebody who does fix it. if your attached to it fix it plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobiedubie Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 One big leak that is easy to fix is the oil pan. If you are going to remove the engine, you would wait until then to tighten up all of the 10mm bolts that surround the oil pan. Otherwise, you can tighten up the front and both sides and clean up most of the oil leak there. For the left and right side cam towers, you would have to remove and replace those and use a good liquid engine gasket maker like ThreeBond 1211between the cylinder head and the camtower. Then you buy full gasket kits on EBAY that give you the camtower cover gaskets and the 2 camshaft O rings. If you got it down to taking your camtowers off, you might as well take the cylinder heads off and replace the cylinder head gasket, providing your cylinder head pressure is less that 120 psi. Mine are at 130+ psi. There are a lot of special tricks to doing the cylinder head gaskets right, so it helps to already have done it. When assembling the camtower covers, use some extra hi temp gasket maker like Permatex Ultra Copper, in the lower half to help confine the oil. Also use some gasket maker around the two lower bolts that hold the cover on. Any other leak around the engine, would be uncommon. You did not say how many miles your car and engine have. If you are going to fix everything yourself, you can buy EBAY parts for $300. The transmission is a huge unknown at this point. Low mileage replacements are available, but unless you are pulling the transmission off of the old car yourself, there is no way of being certain what kind of mileage your are getting on a replacement transmission. If you are going to pay someone to fix it, you could get into the $3000 range easy. The car is not worth $3000, even when fixed. You could cut your losses and resale it. And then go out and buy a Subaru with less than 150,000 miles on it. Mine has 400,000 miles, but I have already replaced everything at least once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo747 Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 I also have a 1993 Loyale with an EA82 with 254,000 miles. 10 years ago I had a shop reseal the engine, then I did it myself about 4 years ago. It's leaking again and I'm considering tackling the job again this summer. Mr. Loyale said "I think Subaru is Japanese for 'leaky engine'." Another common joke is that Subaru's don't leak oil, they mark their terratory. Mine has marked the entire block. I read a thread several years ago entitled "Why I hate Subaru." In short, the poster had obtained one to use as a farm vehicle and would drive it until it died. The problem was, it wouldn't die. It was leaking oil, blowing smoke, and making all sorts of ungodly sounds; but it started every time and did what he needed it to do. The OP said he was apparently going to have to drive it until it rusted apart. He then went on to say that he felt sorry for those of us (like me!) who live in the desert southwest. We are stuck with our Subaru's forever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Hey, just wanted to let you know I went through your entire webpage about your repairs to your L that you have. That's some nice work you did there! I've been using 'loyales' (called L-series here in UK) for over 20 years and can honestly say they are the best cars I've ever owned even though they've been a heap of trouble. Why? Because my work has been generally low-income stuff and I've bought a succession of very cheap and poorly maintained cars. In my experience, the Subaru's reputation for longevity and reliability meant that many owners (mostly farmers in the UK) ran them for 150,000 without so much as a service and then sold them to people like me. I've had several old 1.8 4x4 EA82 cars and mechanically they've all been fixable. it's their propensity to rust that lets them down on our heavily salted roads. Recently I've undertaken my first full rebuild of an EA82 - only worth it financially because they are rare as hens teeth here - and hope to have a hard-working car that will last me till I peg it. Even in bad shape I've always been able to cruise at, ahem, the legal limit and know for sure a good one will stay at 90 all day if you want it to. (though my speeding days are over Your Honour). Driving frugally around the lanes I get 40mpg but that goes down to 20 or less of you use the performance. So I would agree with previous posters that if you are handy with a spanner they are very good cars. Otherwise, let another enthusiast restore it to health. Follow workshop manual instructions and you'll find it all reasonably easy. best of luck! http://www.nagara.co.uk/carhome.htm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Paws Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) That sucks to hear it have all those problems, it was looking like a really nice car. But I would agree that it's worth fixing, or at least investigating the problems more. It may not be leaking any more than what is common for these engines. But if it comes down to it, pulling the engine is not a big as deal as it sounds. These Subarus are easy to work on, and the engines are fairly lightweight. Two people could do a complete swap in an afternoon. Did the mechanic give you an estimate to what it would cost to fix? I would definitely get a 2nd opinion too, take it to l75eya if you can. For those who asked for more info (I helped him find the car): It's a 1994 with about 104k miles on it. Definitely a clean looking car too: Edited February 4, 2013 by Coyote Paws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomRhere Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 If those pics are of the Wagon in question in the 1st post, it's definetly worth buying and resealing the engine. Pics of engine doesn't really look all that bad as far as leaks go, seen much worse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O.C.D. Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 If those pics are of the Wagon in question in the 1st post, it's definetly worth buying and resealing the engine. Pics of engine doesn't really look all that bad as far as leaks go, seen much worse... x2 This is not a big deal. Seen MUCH worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobiedubie Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 It's a keeper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlenSz Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 this is the kinda stuff i really hoped to hear. i can't thank everyone enough who offered their knowledge and advice. i must be running a bad script or something, but i wasn't able to login in and reply to my own thread, kept getting some kind of "expired domain" message, nonetheless, i got all the replies to my initial post and read them earnestly. i think i sorta intentionally left out the year and miles on it in my first post so i could get a broader opinion on my situation. but as CoyotePaws filled you in, it's got 104k and is a '94. i gotta thank him again for helping me get the chance to even see it in the first place. It really gave me a lotta respect for this message board, and after reading all the encouraging replies, i'm more hopeful that i might not have to get something else. With the chance to learn more about doing some of the work myself if i had the right resources, seemingly available mostly via this message board, i optimistic. not quite sure how bad the leaking is, could be seepage, but not really parked anywhere too long or frequently enough to look for spots i'm making. the dealership's mechanics gave me a pretty high estimate, 3K+, to redo all the seals, timing tuned, and the struts (strut mounts are dry-rotted pretty bad, more pics to come). brought it to another dealership mechanic, but not to the dealership, to his house. he's a friend of a friend that has a vintage VW restoration shop that i called and asked if he knew any Subaru guys he could suggest. I'm pretty confident this guy, who echoed most of what the dealership said wasn't seeing any dollar signs in me, he was just doing his friend a favor. He added that if i hadn't mentioned how it was overheating (mostly only on the highway going over 60mph for extended amounts of time, without venting it by running the heat, in which case it cools down significantly) the first time i brought it to a dealership for an all-points inspection, that might be an additional cost of putting in another radiator. he said i might spend a bunch fixing it's current problems and the tranny goes in another 10k miles, and how some mechanics won't work on it or the parts will be more challenging to find. this wasn't what i wanted to hear, but don't like the idea of going against 2 educated appraisals of how it wasn't worth it and i'd be better off getting something else. I did get some help from a family friend who has a long time mechanic everyone who has a car in her family uses, and that she took a used outback w/ 100k miles on it to after buying it and hearing from the dealer it'd cost minimum of 2k to fix and he did it for about $700. that cars now at 200k. i just brought it out to him, he's in Jersey, and left it there today. I let him know everything i know up to this point and my feelings about wanting to keep it now that i managed to get it because i went outta my way to find this specific make and model cause it fit my needs, and how i was willing to put some time and more importantly money into it. i'll hear from him tomorrow, hoping for the best. @l75eya, if you're in hoboken, i'd definitely welcome the opportunity for you to take a look at it. it's in Morristown right now, and the first guy who's house i brought it to, the friend of the friend, he was in Hackettstown, so i've already gone a lot further than Hoboken to get some insight. send me a PM w/ your email address and i'll get in touch. If i do end up having to sell it, you be the first to see it. @NickNakorn and everyone else who offered their thoughts, i'm tremendously grateful for them, thanks much, i'd love to get more into these cars in the midst of such a positive community. i'm already attached to it in a way, and have gone outta my way considerably so far, so going further isn't too tough, considering my other options which i'm hoping to avoid. i'll keep updating when i find out more, thanks again, -Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tofutti Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) ...They are much maligned, mostly by those that have not had one bolted to a properly running engine. Sometimes they quit shifting when left in "D", this is a known, common problem that can be fixed by mere mortals. If engine speed at 55 is well over 3000rpm, the tranny probably did not shift up into 3rd gear. If it is sluggish from a dead stop, it may not have downshifted into 1st. Try shifting manually through the gears to see if it acts differently. Don't panic. Hi there! Not trying to hijack the thread at all, but I wanted to gleam a little more info from NorthWet, based on his reply above. Before I get to that though... (OP) From the pictures it looks like you've got a very nice old gem there, (low miles and not really leaking all that bad..) and the vehicle is certainly worth correcting the issues it has. As others have stated, again, it's up to you to decide what level of work you are willing/able to perform on it, and what it's financially worth to you. I can tell you for a fact, even not knowing what you've paid for it, that it won't do you wrong if you do it right. It's kind of a mutual respect with these cars. Good luck, and if you decide it's not for you, look me up.. That one's in good shape for this area.. Back to my question... NorthWet, regarding engine RPM at certain speeds... Backstory: I just bought a '92 Loyale (EA82 (non-turbo)), AT3 tranny with 102k miles for $300 from a co-worker. There are 4 of us at this place and about all we've ever driven are Subies (family member works for a wrecker service and gets them cheap and rebuilds..). The one I picked up was not a rebuild. I am the third owner of the car and all records came with it. I just changed the plugs for the forth time in the cars' life. The only rust on the thing is in one of the front fenders; rock solid underneath (RARE for Vermont..). Anyway, as I've only had one other EA82 previously (preferred the Legacy's) and it was a 5-speed, I've never dealt with the 3AT. I'm looking at ~3100 RPM @ 50mph, on a flat. I have not dared to drive this thing much faster except for brief periods for testing it. It will do 70 but I don't think it likes it. I feel bad for it just doing 50.. I can count each gear/shift up through the range and it IS hitting three gears. Fluids are perfect, etc. I just want to know if I should be apprehensive about running it at, say, 60 mph, where it's revving about 3700... The mechanic in me says even the 3100 at 50 is too much (considering I commute 60 miles/day) but are these little engines simply ok with that? Is it really just normal to let it run that RPM for an hour and not worry about it? (assuming oil pressures are fine and all..) I know these engines are short-stroke and all, but I really don't want to burn up rings and whatnot. Just seems so wrong to me to hear it whine and drone away constantly at that kind of RPM, yet I know this was the design of the car... I feel like I'm just revving it and killing it. Looking for some reassurance perhaps?! Edited February 5, 2013 by Tofutti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickNakorn Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Hey, just wanted to let you know I went through your entire webpage about your repairs to your L that you have. That's some nice work you did there! Hey, many, many thanks! It's appreciated. I often wonder if those pages are useful and it's good to know the time spent doing them is helpful to someone somewhere. I'm currently fixing the second rear wheel arch - just as rusty but not in exactly the same places so I've had to make quite a few new templates. I'llk do some new pages in a week or so. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rust Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Here is a pic of my loyale, basically the same color/year as yours. Mine was in far worse shape than yours when I got it.....yours is worth fixing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rust Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Diamond plate makes great rust repair panels. Good luck w/ your subaru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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