'94 Loyale wagon - not getting brake pressure?

[GlenSz]

the "Low Brake Fluid" dash indicator light started coming on, i filled it the first time, was fine for a few days, then it came on again, but the fluid in the reservoir was right between "Full" and "Low", and taking on and off the cap of the reservoir temporarily turned off the dash light. when it came on again, i made sure to fill it up completely again. then the next day, i noticed when driving, the brakes were getting softer, requiring very little pressure to push the pedal down about halfway, then eventually all the way down before the car would actually brake enough to come to a stop. 

 

i think my first concern was maybe something got into the reservoir when opening and closing it so many times and it clogged the line somewhere, but after talking to a few folks, the thought maybe some air got in and i should just bleed them completely and refill. 

 

from what of know, this car sat for probably 7 or 8 years before a got it a little over a month ago. up to this point, the brakes were working, despite the rhythmic shudder which was relative to the speed of the car when braking, like you'd experience on a bicycle if there was a bubble or bum somewhere on one of your tires. this seems more of a fluid pressure issue. 

 

the timing belt failed about 2 weeks ago and was not cheap to have fixed and definitely outta my league, as far as doing the work so i'd really like to fix this problem myself because i think i might be within my ability and resources. 

 

suggestions? i'm not giving up on it yet, but it's beginning to make me wonder if it's worth keeping for anything other than that fact the body's in good shape. 

 

did i mention sometimes it likes to not start? i mean i turn the key, there's a click, and dash lights go on, but that's it, nothing else. sometimes it only take a few tries and it starts up, but sometimes seems like it takes a bunch of tries, then leaving and coming back to it. i haven't had to jump it yet, but i've started carrying around a booster just in case. 

 

that's a whole other issue, i'm more concerned with my brakes, considering the safety aspect.

 

very much appreciate, thank you

[-tombba-]

I would sayjust bleed the brake system and change the fluid to new one and see if it helps. It's easy job to do but requires two persons to do it without a fancy brake bleeding ware. If that does not help it could be getting some air into the system either from master cylinder or brake booster (my main guesses). But just do the brake liquid change and see how it helps. If it has been standing so long before you got it would be wise to check all the crucial parts from it at the same time just for your own peace of mind.

 

About the poor starting. It sounds like a bad battery or starter connection. You might want to check if the battery leads or the wire leading to starter is corroded or otherwise bad. That has been the issue in 95% of my cars that does the same as your car. 

[ivantruckman]

is your loyale a manual transmission , or an automatic ?

[Numbchux]

Well, the symptoms sound like a burst line to me. Are you loosing fluid since the pedal feel changed? I would start looking under the vehicle for brake fluid coming out somewhere, there are quite a bit of lines in front of the rear wheels that are exposed to the elements, so I'd start there. Also look for brake fluid on the inside of your tires to see if a caliper/cylinder is leaking.

 

The reservoir would have had to get quite low (empty, in fact) to pull air into the system. Which it doesn't sound like you let happen, but if it did, and you've got a bubble in the master cylinder, that would be a serious problem, and could require bench bleeding the master to clear it up.

 

But if you're confident that you don't have a leak somewhere, start with a traditional bleeding, if you got air in from the reservoir, it will require quite a bit of fluid to be pushed through to get it out.

 

 

 

As for the starting issue. Loyales tend to run too much amperage through the ignition switch itself, so the plug in the steering column tends to deform slightly, and then you get a bad connection. When it gives you trouble, hold the key in the "start" position, and then push up on the bottom of the steering column with your knee. It'll probably start right up.....I know mine always did.

[l75eya]

His car is an automatic. Got the pleasure to meet Glen himself and his GL recently. Very nice guy and definitely a nice wagon. From what he said, it doesn't seem like there are any major leaks, but the fact that he had to refill the brake fluid once or twice may indicate that there is a small leak somewhere, I'd be interested to know if you've noticed any leaks, Glen.
Park the car somewhere dry, fill the resevoir, start the car up and pump the brakes a few times. Build up pressure, check near each wheel for any fluid and it'd be helpful if you can have someone watch the underside of the vehicle as you're pumping the brakes to see if there are any drops.

If you need help bleeding the brakes, let me know. It does require two people, as mentioned earlier.

Bump to the top!

[GlenSz]

@Ivantruckman, as 175eya mentioned, it's a 3AT. 

 

@NumbChux & @175eya, not losing any fluid since the pedal feel changed. i never was below the "Low" line in the reservoir, i just filled it up when the dash light came on and was good for a few days, but then it went on again even though the reservoir level was right in btwn "FULL" & "Low". i just opened and closed the res and the light would go off, but after a few days of that, i lost pressure, so not sure if it's air in there, or if i'm leaking from the MC or brake booster. might be leaking from a burst line, but i don't seem to be leaving any puddles or spots when i'm parked, but it's hard to tell where i live and i constantly have to move it, day to day. need to check the tires for brake fluid, but if it's a caliper or cylinder leak, wouldn't my reservoir be getting low or empty?

 

just not sure where the fluid's going if it's not emptying the res, but i have no pedal pressure.

 

@175eya, yeah, definitely need some help checking and bleeding it, ASAP, what are your plans this weekend? particularly saturday morning/afternoon? the weather looks ok to work outside, just need the light. i don't want to drive it while it's in this state, so, being my only resident Loyale expert, how can i bribe you to maybe come my way? certainly cover your travel expenses. haha, and then some.

 

you guys gotta know i'm trying to keep my patience with this, but yeah, the whole story of the initial finding and purchasing of this Loyale about a month ago is in another post/thread i started, which has all the info about different subaru mechanics' inspection/evaluation and warnings about this car, considering how long it sat for, etc., leaving me to wonder whether or not to keep putting money into it, considering paying too much originally for it and not knowing exactly what to look for and missing some major stuff that might've kept me from making such a quick purchase on so little info or insight when i first went to Penn. to look at it. 

 

my complete repair manual is lost in the mail somewhere and i'm not ready to drop hundreds of dollars more into it after just having the timing belt replaced at a cost of around $650. at least my waterpump is working like it should now, so the overheating issue i was experiencing is gone, but less than a week after that, this brake issue is causing me to wonder if Murphy's Law is now taking effect and i'm starting to pour money into a bottomless pit, as i was advised by 3 separate mechanics i brought it to, to check it over after first buying it. 

 

thanks for everyone's time and advise, oh and thanks for the starting tips, 175eya told me a similar trick as yours @Numbchux, holding the key in the on position and turning on and off the lights and other electrical components. but knocking the steering column with my knee is another tip to add to my bag of tricks if that happens again. i also put a battery booster in the trunk, just in case i can't find a jump if i'm desperate. the battery in there seems pretty new, so i think it's probably a bad connection. just can't tell if it's in the wires or connections at the starter or the ignition. 

 

thanks again, 

 

any and all advise is much appreciated!

 

oh and this a link to the thread i started about what the initial mechanics' appraisals of my loyale when i first got it back from PA: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/136054-loyale-more-trouble-than-its-worth/

[l75eya]

I'll give you a head's up, Glen. I may be able to head out to you tomorrow, would you be able to PM me an address? Or text me? Plug into my GPS and see how far I'm going.

First step is definitely to bleed the brakes, we're going to need brake fluid to do so.

[ivantruckman]

I was going the "hill holder route"  but since its an auto it dosnt have that pluming ,  if there is no fluid leak i would suspect the master cylinder is loosing pressure around the seals

[MR_Loyale]

When you got it, did you immediately change all the fluids? When cars sit for a long time, the fluids get water and degrade. If you haven't already, you should immediately change the oil, auto fluid, coolant, rear diff and brake fluids. Cars that sit for that long will have issues just as long bedridden people will have issues walking at first. This is true of any car out there from a Chevy Nova to a Bugatti Veyron. 

 

Sorry to hear about the big expense with the timing belt. You should given us the specifics of the vehicle you were interested in as well as the time it sat and we prob could have told you all these things before you bought it. Subaru timing belts are due every 60k miles. As you found out, you cannot let this maintenance go. You got off cheap for $650. My first one cost $1200. And probaly your engine will need resealing too as the mechanics said. I did my second t belt at 117K myself pulling the engine to reseal and plan on doing the t belt at 180K.  When I had the engine out I replaced the oil pump and water pump as a precautionary measure. You are in used car territory and mainenance is required, or expensive repairs will be the order of the day. This is true on evey single used car out there.

 

Is this a critical daily driver? Do you live somewhere where doing major mechanical work is not practical or allowed (e.g apartment complex with a strict landlord who forbids mechanic work in the parking lot?) If that is the case, you probably should get what you can out of it and get a brand new car. Used cars will always have the maintenance requirement and any car you let sit for 7 or 8 years without running, even a brand spanky new one, will have trouble with the rubber bits getting hard and brittle.

 

The Loyales are great cars that are easy to work on, but be realistic. If you are in an apartment complex and the only way you can do the work is in the parking a lot and the landlord gets mad about it, you probably aren't going to be pulling the engine and doing the reseal there any time soon.  I am not trying to discourage you here, just set your expectations realistically.  Like everyone has said, they are easy to work on, even major engine resealing. But you do need a place to work on it. having it done at mechanics rates will put you in the poor house and isn't woth it.

 

On the other thand if you have a Subaru club buddy and someplace to work on the car, there are tutorial videos out there on how to pull the engine and do all the reasealing. Miles Fox made a youtube video series called "The Art of Subaru Maintenance". Be sure to read through your shop manual (Haynes book works too) on all that is required BEFORE you remove a single nut. this is a critical point. If you just start tearing things off, especially if you haven't done it before (I presume you haven't), you are ensuring failure.

 

After sitting 8 years, any car is going to have issues. Rubber is rubber and doesn't last forever. Oh and all those hoses on the engine will need to be replaced in the future too. Easy job that can be done in the parking lot. But at over 20 years old any bit of rubber will be brittle.

Edited March 2, 2013 by MR_Loyale

[l75eya]

Good bits of info there. Glen's story reminds me a bit of when I got my GL. 2 or 3 years ago now (I don't remember);
When I drove the car off the used car lot, the odometer read 46,xxx miles. This was an 87 GL that only had 46k back in 2011ish. She sat for awhile.

I did the most intelligent thing a person can do when getting a used vehicle that has sat; I proceeded to do absolutely nothing to it at all (except a new driver's side axle), loaded it with people and cargo (over 1,000 lbs worth) and drove it 7,000 miles across the country and back.
Somehow, amazingly, she got me and my friends and family through that entire trip without so much as a single problem, save for a nearly blown out tire from a pothole somewhere in Utah.
After the trip though (in fact 2 days after safely getting back home) the bearings in the water pump said "NO MORE" and they fell out and left the clutch fan flopping around.
That would have sucked to have happened in Colorado!
But she got us there and back! Also, after giving her a tune up and an oil change and a new water-pump, after it's SECOND trip across the country last year and back (this time over 9,500 miles), your advice about checking gear and differential fluid rings very somberly true. Shortly after returning from the second trip my transmission started making a rattling, nasty noise. I THEN changed to gear oil (why didn't I do it before this?!) and it was just...horrible. Brown, gooey, nasty, horrible stuff.

Any way, back to the point; good advice from Mr. Loyale. Any car that has been sitting awhile should be reconditioned a bit. (I *still* haven't done my timing belts, currently at 79k knock on wood)

 

[MR_Loyale]

Good bits of info there. Glen's story reminds me a bit of when I got my GL. 2 or 3 years ago now (I don't remember);

When I drove the car off the used car lot, the odometer read 46,xxx miles. This was an 87 GL that only had 46k back in 2011ish. She sat for awhile.

 

I did the most intelligent thing a person can do when getting a used vehicle that has sat; I proceeded to do absolutely nothing to it at all (except a new driver's side axle), loaded it with people and cargo (over 1,000 lbs worth) and drove it 7,000 miles across the country and back.

Somehow, amazingly, she got me and my friends and family through that entire trip without so much as a single problem, save for a nearly blown out tire from a pothole somewhere in Utah.

After the trip though (in fact 2 days after safely getting back home) the bearings in the water pump said "NO MORE" and they fell out and left the clutch fan flopping around.

That would have sucked to have happened in Colorado!

But she got us there and back! Also, after giving her a tune up and an oil change and a new water-pump, after it's SECOND trip across the country last year and back (this time over 9,500 miles), your advice about checking gear and differential fluid rings very somberly true. Shortly after returning from the second trip my transmission started making a rattling, nasty noise. I THEN changed to gear oil (why didn't I do it before this?!) and it was just...horrible. Brown, gooey, nasty, horrible stuff.

 

Any way, back to the point; good advice from Mr. Loyale. Any car that has been sitting awhile should be reconditioned a bit. (I *still* haven't done my timing belts, currently at 79k knock on wood)

 

 

 

 

Just a note on the timing belts. Glen, you may think you really spent a lot when it was $650 to get it replaced but you really experienced why these are great cars. Let me explain.

 

In most of the new cars out there, the engines are what is called interference engines. That means that they are engineered such that if the timing belt breaks and the valve is open to its maximum and the piston goes up to it's maximum, the two will collide at high speeds and the engine will be ruined. I mean valves bend, heads wrecked, pistons broken kind of ruined.

 

On your car Glen, your timing belt snapped and no engine damage was done. In fact replacing the timing belt fixed the overheating issue. You got off lucky because this is a Loyale and it has a non-interference engine. No matter how far the valvle is when the belt snaps, the pistons will never hit them.  Any other car with an interference engine, and today most are interference,  and you would have to get a new engine.

 

Your particular car has a maintenance deficit. This means all those years it sat, no one drove it and so its fluids went bad, things get gunked up and it will take some work to recover. That is what you are facing. 

 

The most important fluids to immediately change are coolant (turns acidic after a few years and corrodes engine), auto trans fluid (water infiltrates and it doesn't work anymore) and oil.  I suspect the car was due for a timing belt and the previous owner got rid of it to avoid the expense. They probably hadn't changed the fluids for a few years either so those are easy cheap things to do preventative maintenance. Don't assume you can just drive it.  Start your time with it off right by refreshing the fluids. You can do all of that yourself.

[GlenSz]

i can't agree with everything you said, @MR_Loyale, and i can't express my gratitude enough for all your honest advice and consideration of my situation. @175eya is actually on his way over to my apt. right now, trekking for hoboken to brooklyn to help me figure out my brakes. he's had nothing be great stuff to say about the USMB and it's members and i'm seeing what he's talking about. it's awesome to be able to link into the existing community via the internet as an obvious amateur with little to no real knowledge of the stuff necessary to do anything on my own and receive so much help, encouragement and honesty...and all for free? seriously, USMB rocks, i can't say enough. 

 

i have no apartment parking lot, just the street in front of my building and the laundromat parking lot at the end of the block...that is if my local bootleg dvd salesman who i'm pals with is working, cause he's sort of the security guard & parking lot attendant for the laundromat, lol, and watches my car if there's no parking on my street when it's crowded during the day. sometimes living in the city can be interesting? anyway, seems like on non-winter days, especially on weekends, there's at least somebody working on their car on my block, so it's pretty common-place, but not good for anything major. i also have to move it for street-cleaning, sunday-tues nights & weds-fri nights. there is a fenced in parking lot across the street from the laundromat parking lot which i think i can pay monthly for access to, but i have to ask some of the neighborhood guys who'll know. i also haven't looked into getting a small garage somewhere close by my apt.. i helped a friend insure his '51 Austin through my name cause he had no primary vehicle insurance, which you need to insure a "classic car". he had a small garage in bed-stuy, not too far from me, and he kept the Austin and a motor cycle in there with some tools. i'm gonna see what's available and make a decision, which will also include figuring out how much i can deal w/ not having a solid, daily vehicle for awhile, cause i don't want to rush this process especially as a complete novice. in recognizing that, i also don't want to waste my time, money and possibly a nice starter or project car for someone on here, the USMB, learning how to D.I.Y. it. 

 

i did want to acknowledge how lucky i am to have some of the subaru engineering help keep from destroying itself when the timing belt went. i definitely felt the almost exact same engine failure on the highway outside of Akron, OH in a '86 ford e250 van that i had for years and years, and once it went, that was it, major internal failure, no rocker-arm movement? like i might have said, i'm embarrassed with how little i know about the basic engine mechanics for having owned so many used cars and logged so many driving miles, i've literally driven through all 48 continental U.S. states. so maybe this is an opportunity to learn some more, but as i said, i know i need to have patience and help, which if i don't have enough of, could make it not worth it for me w/ the Loyale, so i'm gonna still try to figure that out. 

 

i wish i woulda got on these boards much sooner before buying the loyale, cause it definitely would have helped to know more about the car, both Loyale's in general, and that one in particular. I made a rash decision cause i just took a shot, liked how it looked, hoped for the best and wanted to believe what the young man who sold it to me told me about it and didn't know enough of what to look and listen for with it, so it's on me. what he told me was that it was his grandfather's car which he started driving a year ago after he grandad sold it to him and that he drove it daily and the noisy knocking (which i've come to find out is actually more of a "ticking", @175eya told me about the "tick of death") was happening ever since he had it and it was just loud, but drove fine. he also said he did routine maintenance on it, including regular oil changes and fluid checks. i didn't know enough to see that a bunch of spots had been bondo'd and painted and there were plenty of spots that were just painted, to make the thing look nice for an easy sale. i did, however know enough to bring it to an independent oil change place, not a jiffy lude, before taking it on the highway and back to NYC from Reading, PA area. the guy who worked at the oil change place said all the fluids were topped off and it looked like a relatively new oil filter and that it wasn't even worth him doing anything cause it was all topped off, but did say he saw a number of leak spots up front and even at the back from the rear dif, so my suspicion is that this kid just wanted to flip the car by making it look as nice as possible, cause it was relatively clean to begin with, but also not put any work into changing all the dry-rotted rubber parts in it, including all the seals, the strut mounts, hoses, etc. and merely getting an oil change and quick service so it ran long enough to sell it. 

 

all this being said, i've already invested plenty of time, money and effort into it that i kinda feel like just going for it at this point, cause i never really had much of a shot and just trying to resell it, like all 3 mechanics, 2 of which were subaru dealer mechanics, advised me to do if i was looking for a reliable and ready, everyday driving used car. i also kinda felt like after i knew the extent to which the engine needed to repaired, trying to sell it to someone else based on how it looks without disclosing everything i knew and just trying to flip it like the kid did to me wouldn't be right. also, i couldn't do that if it didn't run, and then the timing belt went. 

 

@175eya just got here, so were gonna move it to the laundromat parking lot cause my buddy is working and said it's no problem to put it in the lot, even overnight, cause our street's actually being paved tmrw so all the cars on both sides have to be moved. 

 

i'll update the thread after were done today. 

 

thanks again, muchos gracias to everyone donating their time and knowledge!

[GlenSz]

seems like it was a leak in the back, passenger side line that goes between the wheel and where the other lines come together in the back of the car. i'm gonna get the cheapest/best quote from a number of different mechanics i've used before in the area, cause tracking down that same break-line and trying to replace it on my own seems like more work than it's worth if it should only cost btwn $50-$80 including the replacement line, as @175eya said it would probably be. 

[l75eya]

Rear pass. side. You can see the reflection of the light on the frame. That's brake fluid. Investigated and found

The leak. Seems the brake line ruptured inside that mount holding it to the vehicle.
This is the brake line that goes from the pass. rear tire to

This. It's the brake line far right, top half.  Anybody got a suggestion/lead on a pre-fit brake line? Or will one have to be made?
I'm under the impression that this alone could be causing his brake issues. Brake issues are: Soft pedal that builds pressure if pumped but loses it quickly. Braking is still possible but not very effective.
This is the *only* part of the braking system that appeared to leak. MC dry, all other lines dry.
Thoughts? Suggestions? Jokes? =P
 

Edited March 4, 2013 by l75eya

[MR_Loyale]

Just so you know Glen, I am a complete amateur as well. However I was able to pull the engine, do the timing belts, oil pump, water pump rear main seal, clutch and upper cam seals myself. The key was two months of research reading the procedures over and over until they were second nature. The next key I think was that I gave myself plenty of time, I took a week off work. Now others more experienced will tell you it is a weekend job, for experts perhaps. But there will be parts you forgot to get, parts that are wrong etc. By giving myself a week for the procedure, I ensured plenty of time for getting the flywheel machined, and other planned and unplanned delays. You really want to get on top of things with this so you are replacing stuff in a preventative mode before they go out.  The last thing that was key when I did my engine was to meticulously write down everything I took off. If it was step 10 and I disconnected a connector, I put masking tape on each connector end and wrote the number 10 on it as well as checked off step 10 on my sheet of paper. Sounds anal, but we are beginners here. Assembly was the reverse, again marking off each step as I completed it. I was rewarded with it starting on first crank up.

 

Just about everything that has or will go wrong, most everyone else has already experienced. Some did it right the first time, others did it wrong, found the mistake and corrected it. You learn from both types of writeups.  I hope you get it all working well and if you ever do a cross country to the Puget Sound area, look me up.

Edited March 4, 2013 by MR_Loyale

[-tombba-]

Those rear brake lines have been always in bad condition in my EA82:s when I've got them. One even snapped a line duringa heavy emergency braking thanks to a "nice" caravan puller that decided to pull in front of me in 100km/h limited road. Since then I have alwayschanged those rear lines to new one even if they don't look very bad. They don't cost much and are easy to make if you get right lenght of pipe with connectors from parts store. Especially the two pipes leading from rear brake itself to the brake hose. Hopefully changing that leaking pipe helps !

[TomRhere]

Buy a length of pre-made line, then you won't have to flare the ends.

 

Get under there with a tape measurer and see what lentgh you'll need. Won't find one the exact length, so go next one longer.

 

Remove bad line, bend new line to match as best you can. I've never been able to exactly match the factory bends on any lines I've replaced.

A tubing bender can be bought for a small amount, don't need a real fancy one.

 

You will lose fluid while the line is out, just keep an eye on the level. One can fashion a plug for the end to slow the drip down.

Hook new line up to the forward fitting, let fluid flow into new line, hook the free end to where it needs to be.

Doing that will save some bleeding time.

 

Bleed brakes.