closed course road racing hypothetical

[moser330]

Hello everyone!! i'm new to the message boards here and somewhat new to subaru ownership. about six months ago i convinced my wife to switch from the dark side and sell her 05 lancer ralliart for an 09 impreza outback sport. i never really liked the mitsu and have always wanted to get her a subie since the hatchbacks came out in 08. i love the idea of her driving a mini tank that will get her home in any weather. plus, she's a travel nurse and we travel all over the country and needed the extra space to haul an entire apartments worth of crap some 3000 miles through snow and mountains and whatever else this land of ours had to offer. other than the not-so-great fuel economy i love our little wagon. 

 

anyway, i found a part time job while we're in scottsdale, az for the winter and a coworker has an 08 civic coupe, which got me thinking: who would win a road race? no lame drag racing, but a proper race with turns and everything!! both cars are 5-speed manuals, while mine is fully loaded (read: heavy as spoob) and his is the stripped out base model and about 394 pounds lighter. 0-60 gives a tenth of a second edge to the impreza, but it's about 3 inches taller and an inch shorter wheelbase. as much as i'd love to say my car is faster, i'm afraid the power advantage and all wheel drive traction will be beaten by the smaller, lighter civic. 

 

now, this guy isn't some vetac shouting loser fanboy. he just got a great deal on it so now it's his car. he's a really good guy so it's not acrimonious or anything. we're just curious. i didn't want to check with the honda forums cuz my experience with them has led me to think they're not the most reasonable people, so i'm asking you good folks. who ya got?

[1 Lucky Texan]

from my extremely limited experience, it likely would come down to the driver. I will say, that the first time I went to Motor Sport Ranch in Cresson, the first instructor had me take a specific turn in a manner better fitting FWD cars. It was horrible, my second instructor had me take the corner more like he does in his Viper and it felt much better. So, it may also be track and training dependent. Car prep and  tire selection is gonna figure in, but for 2 noob drivers, may not be terribly significant compared to memorizing the course and picking the right entry-apex-exit points.

 

There also is something to say for low power - by that I mean, the track record at MSR is held by a 134 hp Miata. I think keith just keeps the go pedal on the floor for 90% of the time - but has the handling and the skill to pick the lines 'just' right. The course sees a LOT more powerful cars - domestic and foreign 'torque monsters', but they don't have the course record. They have judge when to 'roll-off' the throttle and brake more often than a car that may only need to brake once or twice. Less opportunity for an error.

 

Might be interesting to drive 3 times, then swap cars and drive 3 times!

 

It's a lot of fun and I definitely could use more driver training - just don't have the money for track time, tires and brakes!

Edited March 7, 2013 by 1 Lucky Texan

[moser330]

for the sake of clarity, let's say the race takes place around a track everyone should be familiar with: Suzuka.

 

i'm thinking i'd have him on the straights and out of the hairpin as the awd pulls me out of the corner, but i'd watch him almost disappear through the essess. it'd be close either way, but we're bored at work and have nothing better to occupy ourselves with. 

[1 Lucky Texan]

Too hypothetical I think. Find a real track!

 

here's the track I went to a coupla times;

 

 

 

I've done one AutoX too.

 

From what I saw and experienced, the FWD guys just lose a lot of speed in the  hairpins that everyone else carries thru. But, there are so many other factors. It isn't like a drag race or hole shots at all. It could take half a day finding the best tire pressure!

Edited March 7, 2013 by 1 Lucky Texan

[moser330]

i see. the above track is similar to suzuka, in that it has many of the same types of corners. if you've ever played any of the gran turismo titles you'll have driven suzuka. it's also the home of the japanese grand prix (formula 1). but anyway, you brought up a good point about lower power being able to to glide through the course instead of "off and oning it". smooth is fast. which is why i'm leaning toward the civic in this battle, as much as i dislike it. our car is just too top heavy and "floppy". it's powerful for a four banger but the chassis could use some tightening up for racing purposes.

[1 Lucky Texan]

There were 'track preppared' cars both times I went - and the Subarus dominated most of the time - but, almost by definition, if you saw a track-prepped car, it had a track-experienced driver too. Among the noobs, byt the end of the day, you could draw a few general conclusions. I had a Porsche Boxster beat, a Miata and some kind of Audi wagon for instance. But again, real world, some drivers may have been more cautious with their cars than other drivers, or it could have been crappy stock tires, or they just didn't understand how to hit the apexes just right, etc.

 

maybe subisailor or some other real motorsport guys will post.

 

here's a pic;

Edited March 7, 2013 by 1 Lucky Texan

[moser330]

well yeah, if one driver has talent and the other doesn't, it's not really a fair fight. but let's assume equal talent in stock cars

[1 Lucky Texan]

well, you did say 'who', not 'which car'.

 

I'm giving the edge to the Subaru.

Edited March 7, 2013 by 1 Lucky Texan

[moser330]

lol, fair enough. is it the traction and power advantage that you like? or something else that has you going with the subaru? we may just end up heading down to Firebird International Raceway before it closes to determine a winner once and for all

[cal_look_zero]

Balanced symmetrical AWD system  vs torque steer for days biased weighted FWD car on a twisty road: Advantage Subaru. You can come into corners hotter, mash the gas and not understeer like the FWD chassis cars. The rear drive wheels serve to "push" the car where you want it, as opposed to a FWD dragging the car outside of the apex.

Now if the civic were track prepped, I'd give him the advantage based on the ol 9k redline and better use of power to the wheels.

[1 Lucky Texan]

cal has good points, I guess I feel the way I do mainly because, as delivered new, the Subaru is better prepared/designed/engineered w'ever for the track.

 

if you look at turn 8 on the track up there (we ran it CCW), the FWD guys were having to decel hard while they plowed right past turn-in (you can't see on the plan, but it's also down hill and maybe slightly off-camber IIRC) , then took a hard left.

 

The rest of us just rolled-off throttle early and or braked, turned in, apex a little late, then gunned it. basically treated it like any other turn, just carry less velocity through.

 

My first instructor had me try that turn the same way at first, it felt very unnatural and the rear would try to come around on me when i hit the throttle. The Viper driver helped me a lot more. later in the day, I had some of the turns up to within 2-3 mph of his speeds he said. Buned through 3/4 tank of gas - probably 3.5-4 hours of track time (the rest was 'class time' and lunch and taking a break so another group ran.) so awesome.

 

I ran with these guys; http://www.apexdrivingacademy.com/

Edited March 8, 2013 by 1 Lucky Texan