idosubaru Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) How can I tell if the front control arms bushings in my 2002 OBW need replaced? 210,000 miles. When grabbing/pushing by hand I see no notable movement/play, but what is that verses the weight of the car. I can push the tire and see the rear bushing/bolt move a tiny amount - i have to watch really close...and i'm sure folks will say replace but my other ones did the same thing, so I'm thinking that's normal for the bushings to give a little. Edited April 24, 2013 by grossgary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikaleda Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 The only way i know is to acctually pull it and inspect the bushing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 The rubber front bushings hardly ever go bad, but if they are bad there will be noticeable play with little force. If you cant move them much with a prybar between the frame and control arm they are probably fine. The rear bushings are filled with a silvery/greyish silicone grease which will leak out if they split. its usually pretty obvious if you know that they are fluid filled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 24, 2013 Author Share Posted April 24, 2013 does leaking positively mean degraded performance/failure? i think the side i'm questioning the most is leaking. i think they couldn't get the caster portion of alignment in spec. i can't find those rear lower control arm bushings.....nowhere sells the bushing only except whiteline, etc and Subaru only sells the assembly for nearly $100 each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 The whole thing has to be replaced unless you want to do polyurethane inserts or whiteline or other aftermarket. Otherwise its a Subaru only dealer part. How far off is the caster? That is usually adjustable only slightly by moving the bushing in or out in relation to the frame. If its only slightly off I wouldn't worry about it too much. A small amount more positive caster on the right side is normal and counters the effect of road crown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 24, 2013 Author Share Posted April 24, 2013 Print out says 0.5 degrees on the drivers side (in the red), the passengers side is green and says 2.0 degrees. the arrow on the diagram suggests it's fairly far out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 I would like to strongly recommend you avoid the poly bushings. I regret putting them on our Outback. I did see someone mention they found some for $80 . I may buy some to swap back into our car. WAY too much shock/harshness with the poly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 24, 2013 Author Share Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) i read your thread and wondered too. i have other cars i can swap them to if i dislike them that much....we'll see. i was thinking making these whitelines may be slightly more forgiving material than the prothane you used? http://thmotorsports.com/i-444318.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=4443182001SUBARUIMPREZA&utm_campaign=GoogleShoppingSeanVehSpec&adtype=pla&kw=&gclid=CMCniM_647YCFcLc4AodjiIAhA i sent Whiteline a message about materials... Edited April 24, 2013 by grossgary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 24, 2013 Author Share Posted April 24, 2013 i just ordered an assembly, thanks guys, not going to do the aftermarkets, the time pressing/installing or paying someone isn't worth it. still $50 each just for parts.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 With the amount of cross caster, I'm willing to bet you probably have a bent control arm. Or whoever did the alignment previously could be having an issue with calibration on the machine. Does it pull to one side or the other? On uneven pavement, does it seem like the wheel moves quite a bit without the vehicle changing direction? Both those symptoms are common for blown transverse bushings. If its constantly pulling, something else is going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 25, 2013 Author Share Posted April 25, 2013 thanks russ! steering does seem a little sloppy though i ignored it since i assumed it was tires which have a few more months left. will pay attention more to what you described, sounds more likely than tires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Yeah there's something going on there. Cross Caster should be within about .5 degrees. I'm not sure a bad bushing would account for 1.5 degrees difference without being visibly distorted. Did the print out show the SAI and included angles? Are they within spec? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14D Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Where'd you get the assembly for 50 bucks gary? I recently had my front end apart (wheel bearings, ball joints, tie rods, CV boots on one side) and my control arm bushings definitely had some play in them (mostly the rear busghing IIRC) but I didn't have the time or money to replace them. Swapping out a whole control arm (assuming the new one come complete with the bushings and everything) doesn't sound too bad especially at 50 bucks a pop. Did my 93 have silicone filled bushings? I didn't see any signs of leakage but that doesn't mean much at this age (255k). Steering is MUCH improved now but I still have a bit of wheel shake and unsteadiness in the front end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 25, 2013 Author Share Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) duplicate Edited April 25, 2013 by grossgary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 25, 2013 Author Share Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) Did the print out show the SAI and included angles? Are they within spec? I don't see SAI on the print out, doesn't appear to be there (but I am clueless about alignments). This one never had an alignment until recently, been 70,000 miles since I started driving it. Print out shows before and after of (where applicable for front/back): Camber, Caster, Toe. Total toe, Steer Ahead, Thrust Angle. Edited April 25, 2013 by grossgary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 25, 2013 Author Share Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) Where'd you get the assembly for 50 bucks gary? i didn't, that was for bushings, sorry for the confusing title, it won't let me edit it. $110 for whiteline bushings, divided by two = $50 per side roughly. control arms are like $100 or something and do NOT come with those rear bushings and the front bushings which do come with the control arms are apparently not prone to fail or cause issues like the rears so i'm ignoring those for the moment. you have to buy aftermarket bushings and press them in/out or buy the linkage with bushings already in it for $80+ each from Subaru or aftermarket. i stumbled across transverse linkage assembly for $22 but they only had 4 and i bought all 4, maybe they're not the right part or made from chinese toy plastic, but they appear to be right at this point. i haven't installed them yet. you can probably try to find some good used ones - from a much newer model and lower mileage maybe. www.car-part.com should have them for like $15 or less.....shipping would be nearly nothing if you can get them to sell you just that rear bushing if you can't find one locally. Edited April 25, 2013 by grossgary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 I don't see SAI on the print out, doesn't appear to be there (but I am clueless about alignments). This one never had an alignment until recently, been 70,000 miles since I started driving it. Print out shows before and after of (where applicable for front/back): Camber, Caster, Toe. Total toe, Steer Ahead, Thrust Angle. They don't always put SAI on the printouts. It's typically not an issue unless something is bent, such as the control arm or cross member where the control arm connects, and not usually adjustable which is why it doesn't show on the printouts. But knowing if the SAI is in spec can help determine what is bent. Either way if the caster is really 1.5 degrees out of spec it probably means the control arm is bent. Use a measuring tape and compare the distance from the lower ball joint stud to the outer mounting bolt of the rear bushing on each side. You can also compare the distance from the pinch weld to the pivot nut in the rear bushing. If the first measurement is significantly different it's a good indication that the arm is bent. If both of those measurements are pretty close (within 1/16") from left to right then I would have to blame the alignment guy for setting up the sensors wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 26, 2013 Author Share Posted April 26, 2013 great, thanks. i've done some rebuilds/wrecks/measuring before so i can do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 26, 2013 Author Share Posted April 26, 2013 Reply from Whiteline on the bushings mentioned and linked to above, looks like these might be a better option than the prothane used by Luckytexan. But there isn't really much point since there isn't much cost savings...$50 per bushing if you install it yourself, if you have to get a shop to do it the price is about a wash from buying from Subaru. My time or hassle with a shop wasn't worth saving $30. While the W51710 is made from our “Synthetic Elastomer” material, it is designed and used as an OEM replacement bushing in Australia. The bushings are 75A durometer ( as compared to 85A performance, and 93A motorsport bushings) making it much more compliant compared to traditional polyurethane bushings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torxxx Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 how hard is it to install the bushings Gary? I have a bearing guilotine for removing them, is it just a matter of greasing them and pressing them in? I'm looking for stiffer bushings for offroading, but I dont want ones that squeak, cant stand the hard poly ones makin that noise that they make Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Mine don't squeak. maybe they will in the future? I think they'd be good for motorports. I can feel, um, less delay? in application of acceleration and braking. hard to explain. But they are awful going over expansion joints in concrete roadways. Mine were 2 piece so, no press needed for installation. But, you really should get/borrow a 200ft/lb torque wrench. lemme find the link.......http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/99-do-yourself-illustrated-guides/48910-lower-control-arm-rear-bushing-transverse-link-replaced-prothane-03-outback.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 28, 2013 Author Share Posted April 28, 2013 (edited) how hard is it to install the bushings Gary? I have a bearing guilotine for removing them, is it just a matter of greasing them and pressing them in? I'm looking for stiffer bushings for offroading, but I dont want ones that squeak, cant stand the hard poly ones makin that noise that they make i've never installed bushings before so i wouldn't know. these are definitely hard to remove, folks have spent inordinate amounts of time hogging them out, i think i'd aim for having press if that's possible. or torch them out and clean up the rest. i've torched bushings out before when remove rear diffs with rusted bolts. installing i have no idea. sounds like these whitelines might be a good fit for you, they sounds like an in between...you could probably find some reviews on them, search google via the part number or something. if i were installing new bushings i'd go with these. Edited April 28, 2013 by grossgary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 If the bushings are already in holders, it's a real easy thing to replace. The end of the control arm has a 22mm nut that needs to come off, along with a metal washer and two rubber protectors. The inner protector is made to fit a certain direction but once it gets a bit oil soaked from the bushings, it might to stay put, which is ok. The bushing holder is attached to the body by two 19mm bolts. Once those are out, you can use a small prybar to pry the control arm away from the body and it slides off. If you have a manual transmission, the front crossmember can get in the way and be a pain but with some finesse, you can get it to come out. I have pressed in Whiteline bushing inserts into factory housings, and as long as you have a press, it's fairly simple. Just press the outer metal ring of the factory using out, and press the new one in. I had a few sets of Outback transverse bushings that split but the housings were still good. Ended up giving them to another board member (eggroller on SubaruOutback.org) if you want another set. One you're ready to install the bushings back into the car, get it all bolted up but leave the 22mm nut loose! If you tighten it up with the suspension unloaded (especially if the bushings are OEM), the instant you drop it back down, the bushing will twist to the point of splitting again. The suspension has to be loaded up (on the ground or on a ramp) before its tightened up. Also, if you're struts are pretty weak (either blown or very soft), it can also prematurely tear the bushing because of over excessive suspension travel. Just some food for thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 28, 2013 Author Share Posted April 28, 2013 If you're struts are pretty weak (either blown or very soft), it can also prematurely tear the bushing ht! well, well, well. so my 210,000 front struts might not be helping? already replaced the rears and the fronts are coming this summer, guess i'll do it sooner rather than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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