ej18 upgrade. better pistons?

[tallwelder81]

well, first off, let me just quote Wikipedia.  everyone here is probably familiar with this article....

 

Beginning in the 1997 model year, the 2.2 liter engine for 1997 Legacy and Impreza models had internal and external changes that yield an approximately 10% increase in power and 3% increase in fuel economy. Accomplishing this involves many factors, one of which is engine friction reduction. The pistons were coated with molybdenum to reduce friction. The thin coating reduces moving friction and reduces cylinder wall scuffing. The piston skirt was reshaped and the piston weight was reduced by approximately 100 grams. Compression ratio was increased to 9.7:1 by reshaping the piston crown. This eliminates the clearance that was available between the piston at TDC and the fully opened valve. Piston pin offset has been changed to 0.5mm (0.002 in). Piston to cylinder wall clearance has been reduced by increasing the piston diameter.

 

 

 

so, my question is fairly obvious.

CAN I BENEFIT FROM THAT UPGRADE, with an ej18, rather than an ej22?    having like <rough guesstimate> 125 hp at 5600rm, instead of 110hp at 6000rpm, and 120 trq at 3600rpm, instead of 114 trq at 4200rpm, sounds like a NICE upgrade.

 

Specifications [edit]
⦁ Displacement: 1820 cc
⦁ Bore: 87.9 mm
⦁ Stroke: 75.0 mm
⦁ Compression Ratio: 9.5:1 - 9.7:1
⦁ Valvetrain: ⦁ SOHC
⦁ Fuel Delivery single point fuel injection
EJ181
⦁ Horsepower: 110 PS (81 kW; 108 bhp) @ 6000 rpm
⦁ Torque: 149.1 N·m (110 lb·ft) @ 3200 rpm
EJ182
⦁ Horsepower: 115 PS (85 kW; 113 bhp) @ 6000 rpm
⦁ Torque: 154.0 N·m (114 lb·ft) @ 4500 rpm
EJ183
⦁ Horsepower: 120 PS (88 kW; 118 bhp) @ 5600 rpm
⦁ Torque: 163.8 N·m (121 lb·ft) @ 3600 rpm

 

 

-------ea-81 specs:
 

Horsepower: 73 bhp (54 kW; 74 PS) at 4,800 rpm
Torque: 94 lb·ft (127 N·m) at 2,400 rpm

 

why does the old, primitive, simple basic EA engine make so much torque at 2,400rpm, but it takes the <relatively> advanced and much more complex EJ18 4500 rpm just to get 114 lbs of torque?    what is the difference? is it simply because of timing chains and overhead cams, versus pushrods?

or because the ea81 has a 92mm bore, and only a 67mm stroke, versus the ej18 88mm bore and 75mm stroke? I know that bore vs stroke affects torque.  is that it?

 

[tallwelder81]

12 views, zero responses?   a$$holes.

[tallwelder81]

if nobody helps me, im gonna drive my brat to the scrapyard, sell it for fifty bucks, to be crushed and melted down. then im gonna buy a Honda, and add a HUUUUGE tailpipe and muffler. and put 22" spinners on it.  and chevy bowtie hood ornament. with tiger stripe shag carpet dashboard.

[johnceggleston]

 

a$$holes.

??????

 

the ej18 and the ej22 pistons are different diameter so you can not use them and gain the benefit of those improvements.

 

but if you swap in an ej22 engine you will see more than a 10% increase in power.

the ej22 will bolt right in and run just fine in an ej18 car.

this is way easier than opening your block and replacing the pistons.

any ej22 engine will work, just bolt on your intake manifold.

if you have EGR, which you probably do, just ''fix'' it according to the thread on this forum.

easy fix.

 

 

12 views, zero responses?

i guess everyone who viewed had the same questions you did and no answers.

 

 welcome to the forum , i think!?!?!?

Edited May 18, 2013 by johnceggleston

[NorthWet]

12 views, zero responses?   a$$holes.

Not the best way to solicit responses...

 

You have to understand what produces torque, and its correlation to horsepower, to understand the last part of your post.  If you want, I can give you a mini-lecture, but the basic is that torque is strongly related to displacement (effective displacement in the case of supercharging).

 

Using newer pistons won't get you what you are looking for.  First off, EJ22 pistons will not fit in an EJ18.  Second, the moly coating does not buy you much.  Most of the "improvements" quoted are from much more involved changes... Including making the engine damage itself if the timing belt breaks.

[tallwelder81]

yes, I know what an interference engine is.     which brings up a good question.  an ORIGINAL ej18 is NON-interference.  how much would the cam grind need to be "upgraded" before the valves share space with the piston crown?

 

I know displacement affects torque.  but then again, a buick 430 makes SIGNIFICANTLY more torque than a chevy 454 or a ford 429, or dodge 440, of the same year, and roughly same compression and carb cfm.

so I don't think its fair or accurate to just say, cut and dry, a bigger engine makes bigger torque.

I think that same article I quoted, from Wikipedia, said that the ej22 wasn't an interference engine until 1999. but most of the engineering changes came in 1997, and didn't affect the valve/piston relationship.

 

and to the guy who said "get an ej22"....   thank you. sincerely. but I have an ej18. I bought it, already having heard all this. I PREFER the spfi, obd1, and sohc. im a survivalist. and, even getting an EARLY 90s ej18 was a conflict for me, because ULTRA simple repair and maintenance is a very high priority for me.  I don't want a turbocharger air conditioner. power steering. cruise control. etc etc....

110hp is enough. but 125 horsepower, at 500 rpm LOWER than I get 110 horsepower, WOULD be nice. 

the fact is, when somebody asks you how to fix a hole in their roof, telling em to get a new house isn't that helpful. I HAVE a house. I just want a remodel. a new house means money, time, sweat, and finding a way to dispose of the previous house <ej18>.

 

but the truth is, at least you both RESPONDED, and said something.  and I DO appreciate that.  lol...    I suppose I could raise the compression. but that's kinda counter-productive to my survivalist attitude.

high compression means picky fuel. and as anyone who has read history, or even been in America for over a decade, has learned,  one of the least stable or dependable resources in America is....   quality fuel.  I don't want to NEED anymore than 89 octane.  I don't mind spending an extra quarter or 4 dimes for a gallon. BUT, I don't want to NEED it. cuz if I run 87 octane NOW, it may lose a few horsepower, and it may cough and fart a bit now and then. but it runs fine, and its not at risk of a heart failure.  if I put regular in my 10.5:1 buick 430, it will barely even start. even with my hot rod coil, which could probably electrocute an elephant.   d'ya get what im saying?   y;all hear where im coming from?

on a total side note A.D.D. tangent,  ANY FANS OF VW Baja Bugs? seems like they fit in with the whole 80s EA-series philosophy and attitude.   small, simple, practical, fun, and extremely durable, reliable buggys, that LOVE abuse and dirt.    all the Baja bugs I see online are pretty and shiny, and the sale prices are ridiculous.   kinda defeats the purpose of a cheap simple git-er-dun hillbilly-mobile, when the guys on craigslist are putting a 2,000 dollar paintjob, and 1,000 dollar rims on em.   showcars are for fairies. leave that attitude to the Abercrombie crowd. Brats and Bugs were DESIGNED specifically for blue collar Joes. the pabst drinkers and the dirty fingernail types.

 

 

do you guys think an ej18 could benefit much from a portmatch on the intake and exhaust manifolds? and a quick and easy bowl cleanup?   in all the pictures ive seen, EJ engines seem to have a pretty ideal chamber. just the layout, shape, geometry of it all.   ive never done portwork on anything except old 60s American cast iron.  

[spazomatic]

I totally get what you're saying about keeping it simple...which is why i love carburetors, and distributors that can be readily converted back to points/condensor, if need be.

So keeping that in mind, have you considered grabbing a 2.2, and throwing a weber on it? Thats what i have up my sleeve, when it finally makes it onto my priority list.

 

On a side note, i have an old bronco with a 351 cleveland with about 11.3-1 CR, and i run it on 91 octane...but with careful timing adjustments, i can still run it on 87 ok, and have run it on 85 in a pinch.

 

Thought id bring that up cuz no matter the displacement, the tighter you squeeze the mixture, the better bang itll give ya.

[tallwelder81]

I dunno about the carbd ej.  im not knocking it. I literally mean, I "don't know about it".

ive had friends who carbed various 80s and early 90s Fuel Inj engines.  

a guy who sold me my two most recent rivieras, had a mid90s coupe deville, very

stock LOOKING. if you walked up on it parked at the store, youd just assume it was some

old mans or churchy grandmas white mid90s, stock common, unimpressive wimpy

grocery store Cadillac.  but he put a 600cfm edelbrock 4 barrel, and cherry bomb glasspacks

on it. it still wasn't exactly "fast", it was still probably like a 16 second car. but it SOUNDED awesome.

 

and a few of the local hillbillys have turned their mid90s F150s into carbd farm trucks, on 33"s,

full of dents and bullet holes.  I don't think it was a hotrod purpose. just, like you and I were talking of,

for ease of maintenance, and simplicity. 

 

but another reason I went with the ej18, is because, <yes im aware that the ej22 is WELL proven as

a bulletproof, 300k mile engine> I heard many views, that the ej18 has such THICK cylinder walls,

that its virtually un"cook"able.  in other words, you can basically ruin your radiator, or run out of water,

or lose your fan, and the engine WONT overheat.

 

which brings up a funny story:

when I first got my brat, the guy had done a few mods. spray-bedliner. weber carb. stereo. amp, custom boxes.

dome light mod. late 90s mazda bucket seats. and for SOME reason, my fan didn't work.

but I didn't even KNOW it didn't work. i played around, a little mild offroading, some 30 minute drives up thru seattle,

this and that. maybe 1,000 miles, give or take. ALL without my fan.  well, guess what??  

I NEVER overheated. I popped the hood a few times, for friends, to show off my new buggy.  and within ten minutes,

my radiator, intake, and heads were all as warm as your forehead.  not even warm enough to melt butter.

 

the EA series was based off of air-cooled engines, like the VW pancake.  I think that, if anything, the radiator was just

an afterthought.  and I don't think that, at their basic heart, the first gen EJs are much different.  the ej22 is a VERY

popular airplane engine. almost always used in an air-cooled context.   

on that note, have you ever checked out the engines STRATUS sells?  verrrry nice, but how many Subaru guys have

8 or even as much as 12 grand to spend on a 4-cylinder engine?   

I AM tempted to, in a couple years, whenever I kill this ej18, have CCR rebuild me up a nice 1997 ej22. 

they want $3,050 for the 97 ej22. which is only like 900 bucks more than they want for an ea81.

[johnceggleston]

 

and to the guy who said "get an ej22"....   thank you. sincerely. but I

have an ej18. I bought it, already having heard all this. I PREFER the

spfi, obd1, and sohc. im a survivalist.

i understand completely.

 

but the only difference between the ej18 and the ej22 long block is the diameter of the pistons.

if you use the ej18 intake, and the ej22 long block you will have ALL of the things you listed, ''spfi, obd1, and sohc'', but with more power.

maybe 25hp more, or 22% more.

 

but  i certainly understand if you are locked into the ej18 financially.

 

good luck.

[idosubaru]

this is a bit confusing, you asked if you can "benefit from that upgrade"....to what - coated and lightweight pistons? isn't that expensive, hard to find and impractical?

 

you seem to be asking about a large ticket item, but then squirm at the thought of an EJ22 which is a much easier and practical job.

 

simply clearing up your questions, goals, and constraints would help.  you're after torque/power - at low cost?  that seems to rule out coated and lightweight pistons referenced in the wiki article which you ask if you can benefit from - so that answer is maybe  "no", you can't benefit???   unless you're a highly skilled machinist and can modify pistons yourself, but that's beyond my scope.  but again, i'm still unclear what your goals are.

 

the EA and EJ18 are both 1.8 liter engines, so it's not that surprising that they're similar.  and to me they're similar, i don't care about that difference like you do.

 

the EJ18 and EJ22 are the exact same engine, easily interchangeable -you can bolt EJ22 heads on EJ18 block and EJ18 heads on EJ22 blocks, swap intakes....etc.  

 

i bring that up because - maybe you could benefit from a later EJ22 valve train set up bolted to your EJ18?  other folks here more versed in the differences will know more - but maybe the wiki article mentions different valve changes?

 

a 454 is only %5 more displacment than a 430....barely any difference.

a 2.2 is %25 larger displacement than an EJ18 - 5 times the difference of the engines you were comparing.

a %25 larger engine than the 430 would be a "537"...that's a huge engine that would likely make good torque.

[Gloyale]

All USDA ej18 are Mpfi, not spfi. They use the same timing belts as ej22.

 

There is no reason to try to squeeze more from a 1.8 when the 2.2 is a cheap direct swap. Unless you are racing and constrained to a certain displacement.

[tallwelder81]

I was told by a few people that the wiring harness on an ej22 was MASSIVE. like twice as much wire as an ej18.

I also was concerned about the extra weight of the bigger engine.

 

I don't understand how ej18 heads can fit on an ej22 block, and vice versa, if the BORE is different? are the chambers the same cc?

 

and yeah, I figured the ej18 was mpfi, cuz the fuel rail looks like it goes to each cylinder.  but the wiki article says they are all SPFI.

and my ej18 clearly has a throttle body. and the guy who sold me the engine, suberdave, as I think we ALL can agree, really knows his Schmidt,

and is NO dummy, mechanically, stood in my garage and told me, "THAT engine is mpfi", and he pointed with his finger at the wiring going to

the little cubes, that he says are the injectors, one for each cylinder.  

and I know Wikipedia doesn't create reality. Wikipedia is a handy reference, but hardly 101% accurate.

so my engine is definitely mpfi?

anyone know how an ej22 compares to an ej18, in weight?   if an ej22 is just a bored out ej18, maybe the ej18 actually weighs MORE? 

at least, in my head, it seems possible. since the ej18 is famous for SUPER thick cylinder walls.

 

flashing back to the buick 430...   the 400, 430, 455, 455 stage 1 family is INFAMOUS for being ultra lightweight. often compared to a chevy 350,

because the buick engine uses "windowed" block. they are plenty strong for hot rods or street racers. lots of guys have gotten 300,000 out of them

if they keep em oiled and don't race TOO hard. but one of the first things a serious track racer does to a 455 stage 1, is to bolt on a "halo girdle".

they are like this high-strength steel reinforcement, about as thick as two thumbs, that goes on BETWEEN your block and oilpan, using longer oilpan bolts.

 

so what do you mean when you say "ej18 and ej22 are the same exact engine"?  the heads and block and intake are different? interchangeable and identical are different things.

I can put my left shoe on my right foot. that doesn't mean they are the same shape.  and PLEASE don't take offense.  I have a snarky attitude, but I genuinely appreciate your input and advice.

arguing is how im used to tearing apart things, concepts, to get to the core and see how things go together.  sometimes I even like to argue AGAINST my own beliefs. playing devils advocate is

a great way to see things more clearly, some times.

[NorthWet]

For all intents and purposes, the EJ18 and EJ22 (given comparable years) are the same casting.  The cylinder liners have different bores/wall-thickness.  The parts are like Legos and swap back and forth between them.  The EJ22 shortblock should be within a couple of pounds of the EJ18.  The EJ18 was sort of an price-sensitive version of the EJ22. 

 

BTW, those (dry) cylinder liners are made of a material well suited for their purpose, which gives them excellent wear characteristics.  They don't have to be compromised by having properties suited for structural and casting considerations as does the type of cast-iron that most US engines have used.

Edited May 18, 2013 by NorthWet

[idosubaru]

there are no USDM SPFI EJ engines.  they're all MPFI in the US.  other foreign markets had carbs, not sure about spfi.

 

by same i simply mean- all your ramblings about fuel injection, wiring, harness, OBD whatever, practical, survivalist are a wash. the intake/fueling/wiring has absolutely zero bearing on what EJ block/heads you use since EJ stuff is so interchangeable.

 

you can yank an EJ25 out and install an EJ22 and it's bolt up and plug and play.  you can bolt EJ18 heads to an EJ22 or an EJ25. you can install an EJ18 long block in an EJ22 vehicle, just bolt it to the intake manifold and it's plug and play - or EJ22 lock block under an EJ18 intake manifold into an EJ18......lots of options. i don't care about bore and CC, though memory suggests they do differ. i'm running an EJ18 with EJ22 intake in my EJ25 vehicle with EJ25 wiring/ECU.  and it was all bolt up swap and plug and play, very simple.

 

if you're somehow amped up to use an EJ18 wiring harness then simply bolt the EJ18 intake right up to any EJ18, EJ22, Ej25/EJ22 combo you want and run it.  the intake is meaningless in terms of which motor you have to run.  but they're junk, or at least the ones i've seen are - i don't know how many varieties there might be - the EJ22 intakes ( i get the non-EGR ones with no charcoal canisters up front - very light weight looking) are much simpler, cleaner, and don't have those big wonky cylinders and emissions, hoses, or whatever components they are, the exhaust exhaust porting pipe off the passengers side head that no other EJ engines have (but i don't think all EJ18's have that).  i throw them away and use EJ22 intakes on an EJ18.

[tallwelder81]

"ramblings"?   HOW DARE YOU!!!???

[tallwelder81]

LOL

yeah, I know. I have a bad tendency to get a keyboard under my fingers, and just start wandering randomly.   sorry folks.at least, in this case, I started the thread that im rapidly flooding.

[idosubaru]

"ramblings"?   HOW DARE YOU!!!???

i thought i'd try to speak your language for a moment...lmao

[tallwelder81]

HA...  touché....

[Gloyale]

Once you cut the engine wiring and ECU harness out of the entire loom, the EJ18 and EJ22 are the same size (ej22 has one extra wire for knock sensor:)  )

 

The EJ18 impreza harness is a bit easier to stripdown and cut....but that's minor, and really more of an issue of the wiring, more than the engines themselves.

 

An EJ18 harness/ecu can run a EJ22, and a EJ22 harness/ecu can run an EJ18

 

Intakes have minor differences too, but again are interchangable to either engine.  The EJ22 intake is more compatible with injectors and IAC from other engines like 2.5's.  They aren't quite as tall either, so in an XT it might be better but really again, either one can be used on either engine, it's really a matter of matching the Intake to the Harness/ECU more than the engine.

 

Now as for the enignes.  An EJ22 is not an EJ18 bored out.  Close, but not quite.  The barrels are actually cast smaller in the EJ18.  The aluminum walls around the barrel are thick. About 12mm compared to 10mm with some notches on the EJ22. EJ18 barrels are not nearly large on the OD (coolant jacket edge) to bore out to the as the ID (cylinder wall) of an EJ22.  If you were to do this, there would be almost no aluminum left, and the barrel would be about 1.5mm wall thickness outside the steel liner. 

 

That's if you could/should even stuff a new liner in.  Subaru liners are cast in, not pressed, and they don't come up to the deck like an retrofit one would.

 

EJ18 and EJ22e heads are identical.  The valve arrangement is smaller than the bore of either engine, and the cylinders centerpoints are the same
so you can bolt them to either block  They are the same other than an EGR port on all EJ18s and only some EJ22.  You're obviously aware of the similarities of these engines as you are asking about transfering upgrades from the EJ22 to the EJ18?

 

EJ18s are tough, and great engines.  I love the one in my lifted wheeler and in my GF's daily driver Loyale.  More people should use them for EJ swaps on older soobs.  BUTif I wanted more power, I would just put a 2.2 in it, rather than try to tear down an EJ18 and maybe tease a bit more out of an already just fine engine to get unknown results.  You can DEFINATELY get that power EASY with a 2.2 swap.

[tallwelder81]

thaaaanks, pal!   when you say there is one in your lifted wagon, and your ladies loyale, those weren't original, right?  your wagon is like... a legacy?   why did YOU go with ej18 versus the original engine, versus ej22?    did it just come along in front of you?  that's partly why I got mine. suberdave posted an ad for it, and he lives pretty close, like the next town over from me. and the price was right. and I know he knows his stuff. I had NO desire to figure out any wiring, and he was selling it Already made for an EA body.

[Gloyale]

thaaaanks, pal!   when you say there is one in your lifted wagon, and your ladies loyale, those weren't original, right?  your wagon is like... a legacy?   why did YOU go with ej18 versus the original engine, versus ej22?    did it just come along in front of you?  that's partly why I got mine. suberdave posted an ad for it, and he lives pretty close, like the next town over from me. and the price was right. and I know he knows his stuff. I had NO desire to figure out any wiring, and he was selling it Already made for an EA body.

 

And that will be a great engine for you.

 

As it is.

 

My lifted wagon is an 84.  EJ18 to have reliabilty, parts availability, and alot more ponies than the stock EA81, which I had run Carbed, and SPFI before going to the EJ.  Like yours it was cheap from a board member, $50, Although just a bare longblock.  I had to wire up a harness for it, and I actually used a 93 EJ22 harness/intake/ECU for it.

 

My GF's wagon is strictly about gas mileage.  EJ18 coupled through a pushbutton single range 5spd.  185/70/14 tires, just a bit bigger than stock.  Sadly, I think a good running SPFI EA82 could beat it on fuel mileage   Problem is it needs to be a GOOD running EA82, and that's almost an oxymoron......anymore.

 

If you got a good deal on it run it.  Don't tear into a good engine when it's ready to drop in and rock out. Do the swap, and when you want more power, get an EJ22 and bolt it in under the Impreza intake.  Done.

[MilesFox]

Maybe you can swap around cranks and connecting rods to change the stroke or compression. perhaps you could use ej22 heads if they breathe better and the crank/rods make up differences for compression.

 

Just an idea. I hear you on the survivalist mention. I once cooked an ea81 and drove it 45 miles with no water pump boiling the oil and was able to replace the HG using the same block and heads as it was.

 

I am drinking a Sclitz right now but i go back and forth between PAbst blue ribbon. In milwaukee, of course!

[tallwelder81]

lol yeah, I used to drink a lotta pbr.  now I been on the redhook esb. local stuff. 

my ej18 is already dropped in. suberdave has been very helpful.

problem is, everytime I get going on it, family stuff happens. its been offline for over 2 years now.

lots of other hurdles. 

I ordered a magnaflow y pipe/cat.  waited FOREVER, like 12 days, to get it.  the last one, almost

identical, but Siamese port for the ea81, but other than the inlet, identical part, came to my porch in under 3 days.

this one took 12 days, and then, I get this box that's like 12"x8"x4".   without even opening it, I knew it was way off.

so I dealt with customer "service" for hours.   oh, no problem, just send it back to us!!

well, theres a no returns policy. so they wanted ME to pay shipping, for THEIR fuggup.  hell no, I said.

so finally they covered it.  Summit is horrible.  the ad had a CRYSTAL CLEAR PIC OF THE CORRECT PART!

and they said "the part you want doesn't exist, it never has".   "illustrations are for general purposes, and may not be exact".

ohhhh, okay, so someone supposedly took the time to make a high-def picture of a product that never existed? THAT makes sense.

 

whatever.  so eventually I got all my money back.  and left them a horrible feedback.

and complained to the guys manager. long story short, that took 34 DAYS. and accomplished nothing.  here I am, a YEAR later,

and still I have no exhaust.  I just ordered a 23871, this morning.  237 dollars, free shipping.

[86BRATMAN]

The ej18 and ej22 have the same crank and rods.  The only difference in the displacement is the bore, heads are the same despite what some people say.  If the ej18 is ready to go there is no reason to mess with it at all.  It will be plenty enough motivation for the brat.  Down the road if anything goes wrong then worry about putting an ej22 back in there.  

Edited May 21, 2013 by 86BRATMAN

[Gloyale]

The ej18 and ej22 have the same crank and rods.  The only difference in the displacement is the bore, heads are the same despite what some people say.  If the ej18 is ready to go there is no reason to mess with it at all.  It will be plenty enough motivation for the brat.  Down the road if anything goes wrong then worry about putting an ej22 back in there.  

 

Rods are the same.

 

Crank is different.  Shorter stroke in the 18.

 

Interestingly though,  EJ18 and NA EJ20 share same piston size.....hmmmm???

 

And Also,

NA EJ20 and EJ22 share cranks (same stroke)......Hmmmm? 

 

MAybe a 2.2 crank w/ NA 2.0 pistons in the EJ18 block?  I guess you could just get a JDM NA 2.0 at that point

Edited May 21, 2013 by Gloyale