Where can one find a reliable spec sheet and engine codes for 2nd and 3rd gen Subaru engines?

[Ultravan Owners]

I'm looking for a reliable spec sheet and engine codes for 2^nd and 3^rd gen Subaru engines.

I honestly don’t know enough about all the Subaru engines out there.

But I need to know that the one I pick is a sound decision for the conversion project I’m doing.

It is a mid-engine project in a non-Subaru.

 

Key things I’m looking for:

 

It has to be automatic

Size and weight of engine compared to HP and Torque

MPG

 

Where can I find such information to compare them all?

 

Thank you, Tony

[Fairtax4me]

2nd and 3rd gen is really just too vague.

Are you looking for 4 or 6 cylinders?

Turbo or non-turbo?

[Ultravan Owners]

I'm truly not trying to be vague. 

 

But I need to look at all possible choices; 4 and 6 cylinder to compare them for the best fit possible for this conversion.

I honestly do not know enough about the Subaru power plants. More so with the changes over the years that I have not kept up with.

 

I will be purchasing a wrecked/rebuildable Subaru as a donor for this project if I go with something that is 5 years or newer.

Otherwise I will likely purchase a good running Subaru if I go with something a little older.

 

Key Issues:

 

I'm not looking to race.

It is going into a heavy vehicle. (3,620lbs with a Corvair power plant and close to 5,000lbs loaded for a road trip and camping) 

Good low end Torque is key and HP is a close second.

Engine weight ratio to HP and Torque is something to also look at. 

Gas mileage is something to think about; with gas prices always going up. 

Knowing that the engine and AT transmission will be around for some time.

 

Thanks, Tony

 

This is what it is going into.

 

Edited May 27, 2013 by Ultravan Owners

[Fairtax4me]

Now were getting somewhere!

With weight being the major factor, a 2.2 would have the bottom end torque to move a vehicle that size if matched with a good low final drive ratio. But, I think it would struggle on the top end.

 

I would certainly go with one of the H-6 engines. The early 3.0 made 212 hp and 210 ftlbs at 4400. 174ftlbs at 2100. You can find these in 2001-2009 model year legacy outback wagon and legacy outback sedan, and 2006-2007 model year B9 Tribeca. The 3.0 was used to haul around the Tribecas 4200lb curb weight.

Later versions of the h-6 were bumped up to about 250 hp, with similar gains in torque. The 3.6 was available starting in 2008 in the Tribeca, but not until 2010 in the Outback. Obviously these are going to be harder to find and cost quite a bit more.

 

All the H6 transmissions were automatic as far as I know so any donor car with that engine will have the trans you want.

 

As far as size is concerned, the H-6 is not much larger than the 2.5. Overall height and width are nearly the same, and its only about 1" longer (crank pulley to bellhousing) than the 4cyl engines.

The 3.0 also uses a timing chain which is much more reliable than the belt system used on the 4 cylinder engines, and no need to be serviced.

[WoodsWagon]

A 2003+ 3.0l will have the variable cam timing which helps with both low end torque and peak horsepower, it just takes a bit more to wire up but worth it.

 

Honestly if you want to do the biggest, best subaru swap, use a 3.6l out of a newer tribeca. There's no replacement for displacement as they say when it comes to hauling a heavy vehicle around.

[Ultravan Owners]

Okay If I were to go with the 3.0 - Is it the "SAME engine", "matching specs for spec" in the 2001-2009 model year legacy outback wagon and legacy outback sedan as it is found in the  2006-2007 model year B9 Tribeca?

 

The reason I ask and why I also wanted to find a spec sheet for all the 2nd and 3rd gen 2.5 engines and up; was becasue of what I knew about Chevy engines. I needed to know for sure that Subaru worked in the same way with applications of their engines or they did not.

 

A Chevy 350 small block can be fund in a car or truck.  However, in a truck it has a different cam with more lower end torque for pulling.

 

Again I know nothing about Subaru and their engines or codes and what to look for to be sure I spend my money on the best donor car - the first time out the gate. ggg 

 

I also like to be able to get the best possible gas mileage too.

 

Tony     

[Ultravan Owners]

A 2003+ 3.0l will have the variable cam timing which helps with both low end torque and peak horsepower, it just takes a bit more to wire up but worth it.

 

Honestly if you want to do the biggest, best subaru swap, use a 3.6l out of a newer tribeca. There's no replacement for displacement as they say when it comes to hauling a heavy vehicle around.

When you say a bit more to wire it up; what do you mean?

Would I not have everything I need - "IF" I had a complete donor Subaru with everything still on/in the car?

 

I do plan to use the following from the donor Subaru:

1. Complete power plant in a mid-engine placement facing as it was in the front of the Subaru.
2. The complete wiring harness from the car. (Easier and better for computer and to operate everything in the conversion vehicle.)
3. The donor Subaru’s computer.
4. Steering column with steering wheel for all the hand controls.
5. Even the dash gauges and center controls.

It will be like you are sitting behind the wheel and dash of an extra large Subaru. GGG

 

BTW - If I were doing a Chevy conversion I have no problems. I worked as a line mechanic for Chevrolet for ten years. I was a mechanic in the US Army and I had my own Auto Shop before I met my Canadian Wfie and moved up north. I just need help to make this Subaru conversion the best it can be with the right power plant that checks off the most boxes.

 

 

Tony

Edited May 27, 2013 by Ultravan Owners

[matt167]

What I would do is strip the car of it's subframes. That will give you the engine/ trans that you require along with the front and rear suspension ( would need to cut and gut the Subaru body for the strut towers and fab them into the  UltraVan.. You should be able to bolt the front crossmember/ engine and trans in the rear but fabricate it so that it uses the knuckles and suspension from the rear of the Subaru ( don't need or want fork lift turning ). Then use the Subaru front knuckles on the rear Subaru suspension and mount it in the front. You will need a new drive shaft and may need to make some CV axles up but it will work at least in theory.. It's not a theory tho that the transmission will drive the vehicle in 'forward' gears the direction the engine is pointing which would be backwards. So you need to flip the pinions on the differentials to go forward in forward gears.. LOTS of work, but how about an AWD Ultravan?

 

As far as the wiring. Take it all and save it all. Rewire the Ultravan with the entire harness. You can swap lighting connectors as needed but if your planning on 'Roo steering and gauges than the entire harness will work well. You may need to add several feet to some ( most ) wires

[Fairtax4me]

If you have a complete donor car you will have everything needed to make the engine from that vehicle work. The AVCS engines did make more power. Starting in 05, the 3.0R models (outback and sedan) made 250hp and 219ftlbs. Anything you need to make the AVCS work will already be in the car. You're swapping everything from the donor car, everything will work as it did originally.

The only tricky part will be keeping the evap system happy, but that should be doable by swapping the whole evap system onto your campers fuel tank.

 

Subaru is nothing like GM.

Subaru likes to keep things simple. Same engine is in the Outback as is in the Tribeca. There is a difference in transmission gear ratios, the Tribeca has a shorter first gear, but it is mostly so the Tribeca can run on the larger 18" wheels.

 

Fuel economy is kind of a moot point. A 2.5 would have to run so hard to pull a vehicle that size the fuel mileage would suffer tremendously. And not that you're going to be driving particularly fast with that rig, but you would probably need the 4.44 final drive out of a Forester just so the 2.5 could move it at all, and that would mean running a ridiculously high rpm on the highway. I just don't see the 2.5 having enough, if any, advantage in fuel economy to make it a worthwhile candidate.

 

There is a turbo 2.5, but that's going to be a major maintenance liability, and will have to run on premium fuel. The 3.0 with AVCS can be run on regular.

[Ultravan Owners]

What I would do is strip the car of it's subframes. That will give you the engine/ trans that you require along with the front and rear suspension ( would need to cut and gut the Subaru body for the strut towers and fab them into the  UltraVan.. You should be able to bolt the front crossmember/ engine and trans in the rear but fabricate it so that it uses the knuckles and suspension from the rear of the Subaru ( don't need or want fork lift turning ). Then use the Subaru front knuckles on the rear Subaru suspension and mount it in the front. You will need a new drive shaft and may need to make some CV axles up but it will work at least in theory.. It's not a theory tho that the transmission will drive the vehicle in 'forward' gears the direction the engine is pointing which would be backwards. So you need to flip the pinions on the differentials to go forward in forward gears.. LOTS of work, but how about an AWD Ultravan?

 

As far as the wiring. Take it all and save it all. Rewire the Ultravan with the entire harness. You can swap lighting connectors as needed but if your planning on 'Roo steering and gauges than the entire harness will work well. You may need to add several feet to some ( most ) wires

Thanks Matt for your input.

I think you might of missed #1 in my post above.

I will be doing a mid-engine - not a rear engine. 

I will also be facing the engine - complete power plant the same way it was in the Subaru.

So there will be no need to flip the trans or use reverse ring gears. 

 

Tony

Edited May 27, 2013 by Ultravan Owners

[Ultravan Owners]

If you have a complete donor car you will have everything needed to make the engine from that vehicle work. The AVCS engines did make more power. Starting in 05, the 3.0R models (outback and sedan) made 250hp and 219ftlbs. Anything you need to make the AVCS work will already be in the car.

So I can be up on all this - what is AVCS?

 

You're swapping everything from the donor car, everything will work as it did originally.

The only tricky part will be keeping the evap system happy, but that should be doable by swapping the whole evap system onto your campers fuel tank.

I'm assuming the Subaru fuel pump mounts in the tank and I have to make a new feul tank anyways. It is over 50 years old. ggg 

The only things I will not be using are the brakes, rotors and wheels. To spport the weight I will be using HD stuff and haivng the shafts made to use the inner Subaru part of the axle and a custom outer part to mate up with the hub and rotor I will be using.

So I'm not so sure how the wiring for ABS/braking stuff will go.

 

 

Subaru is nothing like GM.

Subaru likes to keep things simple. Same engine is in the Outback as is in the Tribeca. There is a difference in transmission gear ratios, the Tribeca has a shorter first gear, but it is mostly so the Tribeca can run on the larger 18" wheels.

 

Fuel economy is kind of a moot point. A 2.5 would have to run so hard to pull a vehicle that size the fuel mileage would suffer tremendously. And not that you're going to be driving particularly fast with that rig, but you would probably need the 4.44 final drive out of a Forester just so the 2.5 could move it at all, and that would mean running a ridiculously high rpm on the highway. I just don't see the 2.5 having enough, if any, advantage in fuel economy to make it a worthwhile candidate.

FYI - A Corvair air-cooled flat 6 cylinder is what is in most of the Ultravans. They are only 110 or 140 HP, I'm guessing max 165 torque(which I will check)  and 2 speed Power Glide.

For 2 years I was getting 15.6MPG from our Ultravan #256 - until I pulled that power plant this past fall. 

I'm resealing it and installing it in another one of our Ultravans.

The Ultravan #256 I took it out of is going to get a GM 3.8lt supercharge power plant from a fully loaded 98 or 99 Olds LSS donor - which I purchased running for only $300.

 

 

There is a turbo 2.5, but that's going to be a major maintenance liability, and will have to run on premium fuel. The 3.0 with AVCS can be run on regular.

I like to stay away from Premiunm!

 

BTW - I'm from Fairfax. The MRS twisted my arm and made me move up here.

That is when I closed fleet service business and move here.

 

Tony

Edited May 27, 2013 by Ultravan Owners

[MR_Loyale]

A good story on these:

 

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/11/curbside-classic-ultra-van-cross-an-airplane-with-a-corvair-for-the-most-radical-rv-ever/#more-374511

[Ultravan Owners]

A good story on these:

 

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/11/curbside-classic-ultra-van-cross-an-airplane-with-a-corvair-for-the-most-radical-rv-ever/#more-374511

Thank you. I don't recall seeing that before.

Here are the rest of our Ultravans. We are blessed to be able to have them.

 

 

This is our first one, Ultravan #248 Corvair powered, being delivered in the spring of 2008.

That is Marie's 62 Corvair convertible with UV248.

We thought we work on this Ultravan first.

However, when I cleaned it out and started looking it over I found structure problems.

The entire support area for the passenger side front suspension needs to be redone.

To do it right I have to support the coach on flat ground until it is finished.

 

 

This one is UV256 and it was delivered in the summer of 2008.

We purchased UV256 from the same owner as UV248 above.

I got it to have the interior to help restore UV248 above.

It too was Corvair powered from the factory as most Ultravans are.

BTW – This coach sat for 28 years, with a locked up engine, before we got it.

I was blessed to get UV256 back on the road in less than one year.

I took a power plant out of a $150 Corvair parts car, that I had purchased.

I changed all the fluids, rebuilt the carbs, gave it a good tune up and installed it in spring of 2009.

I rebuilt or replaced wheel cylinders, master cylinder, brake hoses and corrected some wiring too.

I added new LED running lights, front parking lights and turn signals.

That is our Corvair Rampside next to UV256 at a local car show.

In 2009 Marie drove the Rampside to the show and I drove Ultravan #256.

I pulled the Corvair power plant out of UV256 this past fall, Oct 2012, to reseal it and use it in another coach. More than likely it will be UV362.

I have always had plans to make UV256 a custom Ultravan.

It was going to be a Subaru or some V6 GM. 

I found and purchased a complete donor vehicle in 2009/2010 for only $300.

It is a nice running low mileage 98 or 99 Olds LSS.

It has a GM 3.8lt supercharged power plant.

I’m just waiting for my barn/garage to be built.

 

 

These two, UV362 (Corvair powered) on the left and UV512 (Chevy 350 power) on the right, were delivered Nov. 2012.

 

 

This Ultravan, UV231, arrived Nov 9, 2013. I saved it from the scrap yrad this summer.

It too was once had a Corvair power plant.

However, someone did a poor conversion and the rear structural area got badly damaged.

Due to the structural damage; I’m now free to reconstruct the back engine and rear suspension area as needed to fit the Subaru conversion of my choice.

I have wanted to do a Subaru in one of these since 2008 when we first got UV248 and UV256.

 

Why so many Ultravans - you ask? I'm a retired car nut - living up north with my Canadian wife. ggg

Winters are way to long and very cold.

Marie and I have plans for a small private working museum. We plan to use and enjoy each one of them.

Each one has some things different about them.

Some have a different; engine, color interior, options and floor layout.

 

 

Thanks for dropping in and I hope you enjoy the thread.

Please keep the information and ideas coming.

Sincerely, Tony

Edited May 27, 2013 by Ultravan Owners

[Gloyale]

You will probably be better off using a 2001-2005 3.0 from an Outback, rather than the tribeca motor.

 

The tribeca and all 2006+ engines are drive by wire throttle. You'd need to install the gas pedal and more electronics.

[Ultravan Owners]

You will probably be better off using a 2001-2005 3.0 from an Outback, rather than the tribeca motor.

 

The tribeca and all 2006+ engines are drive by wire throttle. You'd need to install the gas pedal and more electronics.

Gloyale,

 

 

I will have a complete donor Subaru vehicle to ensure that I am successful with the conversion.

 

 

FYI - These coaches are 22 feet long with the engine in the back already.

 

Running a wire or wires for the accelerator pedal sounds much easier than running the steel cable that they use now. But then again I’m not sure what kind of wire, if it is costly, or if it can hurt the signal as the wire gets longer.

 

It be nice if we, humans, can know everything. But then again we never count on others.

 

Thanks for your input!

Everyone else thanks again too and please keep the information and ideas coming.

 

Sincerely, Tony

 

[Fairtax4me]

I don't see how throttle by wire would be a bad thing in this. Much better than a 10 foot long custom accelerator pedal.

The signal wiring from the pedal to the ECU may be shielded. I'd have to dig up a service manual to find out.

That wouldn't stop me from just extending the wires to the pedal assembly though. Obviously there are quite a few more that will need to be lengthened if you plan to use the whole interior/dash anyway, what difference do a few extra wires to the pedal box make?

[Ultravan Owners]

I don't see how throttle by wire would be a bad thing in this. Much better than a 10 foot long custom accelerator pedal.

The signal wiring from the pedal to the ECU may be shielded. I'd have to dig up a service manual to find out.

That wouldn't stop me from just extending the wires to the pedal assembly though. Obviously there are quite a few more that will need to be lengthened if you plan to use the whole interior/dash anyway, what difference do a few extra wires to the pedal box make?

 

My plan is to get extra bulkhead connctors, like the ones used at the firewall, and make a wiring harness that runs between the (now) rear engine compartment back up the front. That way I should be able ot use the original engine harness in the back and relocate the rest up front with the new center section made up between the extra connectors.

 

At lease it sounds good on paper or in my head. GGG

 

Tony

Edited May 28, 2013 by Ultravan Owners

[Ultravan Owners]

The other concern I will have to deal with, once I have chosen 2 engines to compare, is the location of the center line of the front axles to the front of the engine. Again when it comes time; I will be capping off the rear driveshaft of the transmission somehow..

 

Tony

[presslab]

Fuel economy is kind of a moot point. A 2.5 would have to run so hard to pull a vehicle that size the fuel mileage would suffer tremendously. And not that you're going to be driving particularly fast with that rig, but you would probably need the 4.44 final drive out of a Forester just so the 2.5 could move it at all, and that would mean running a ridiculously high rpm on the highway. I just don't see the 2.5 having enough, if any, advantage in fuel economy to make it a worthwhile candidate.

I wouldn't be so sure. While the UltraVan is a lot longer than my Vanagon, it seems to be about the same weight. My old EJ22 was acceptable at 137HP, and my now EJ25 pulls it with ease. I can't say for sure which has better aerodynamics, the UltraVan has more frontal area but is more curvy than the Vanagon. I'm looking at using the 4EAT in my van, and the 4.44 is too tall still; 65 MPH would be only 2700 RPM. Stock the Vanagon has 4.86 and turns about 3800 RPM at 65 MPH. It's a bit high, yes, but not ridiculous.

 

The tribeca and all 2006+ engines are drive by wire throttle. You'd need to install the gas pedal and more electronics.

I believe the drive by wire engines are a whole 'nother ball of wax. Like they are intimately intertwined with the ABS computer. I know some of the Vanagon guys are working to figure this out, but with the newer drive-by-wire engines I think most go with aftermarket engine management.

[Ultravan Owners]

I thought I share the following.

 

Here is a Chrysler 3.0 in the back of an Ultravan. The owner was in his late 70's when he did this.  

 

 

Here is the dash taken for the same donor mini van that the 3.0 power plant came from.

 

 

 

The following are the kinds of items from a Subaru Tribeca that I hope to incorperate into the Subaru Ultravan Dash.

 

 

First is a standard dash found in a Corvair Ultravan.

 

 

This is a dash cluster from a 2006 Tribeca that I hope to incorperate into my custom dash.

 

This is the center control panel with radio and heater controls I hope to use too.

 

 

The steering wheel with the hand controls and the GPS too.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Ultravan Owners

[Ultravan Owners]

Question about EM and LM Automatics.

 

I only need FWD with this Subaru porject.

 

They made one for a Subaru car in the early 90's I think it was. (I read it yesterday in Wikipedia and forgot the year and car already)

 

Anyways

 

Would I be better off using the entire power plnat from a 2006 Tribeca and blocking off the rear tail shaft of an AWD Automatic?

 

Or should I buy the extra EM FWD only trans and use it with all the newer stuff from the Tribeca?

 

 

One other Question.

 

Years ago when I was thinking about this Subaru porject - I thought I would put the Subaru engien in like the Corvair. (Sitting behind the trans and not in front of) 

 

However, I found out real fast - unlike the VW one can not simply flip a Subaru Automatic tranes.

It was also during that time that an aftermarket company overseas was workign on a reversed ring gear for some manuals only.

 

Now the question.

 

Has anyone come across information for reversed ring for the Subaru automatic?

 

 

Thanks, Tony

Edited May 30, 2013 by Ultravan Owners

[Gloyale]

I don't see how throttle by wire would be a bad thing in this. Much better than a 10 foot long custom accelerator pedal.

The signal wiring from the pedal to the ECU may be shielded. I'd have to dig up a service manual to find out.

That wouldn't stop me from just extending the wires to the pedal assembly though. Obviously there are quite a few more that will need to be lengthened if you plan to use the whole interior/dash anyway, what difference do a few extra wires to the pedal box make?

 

Without other associated signals from the ABS and VDC systems the ECU will not like the throttle inputs.  If you could get one from a non VDC car that would be better....but I still think the ABS would need to be fooled or the ECU reprogrammed.

[Ultravan Owners]

I will have to do some research on the Subaru FWD bearings and what their load rates are.

 

Also see if I "MIGHT" be able to use the heavier Impala lower control arms and disk brakes and some how hook up the Subaru ABS and axles to the connection on the Hub of the Impala? 

 

 

I researched the same with the FWD GM 3.8lt Supercharged project.  

I contacted the leading aftermarket bearing company and spoke with one of their engineers.

He was kind enough to let me know - what Impala FWD bearings were the most popular;

that way I knew once I did this porject - I could still get those bearings as needed - keeping that coach on the road for years to come. 

He also made sure it could handle the wieght in the back of the coach. He then told me to make sure I look for - one or the other - and now I would have to go look at my notes to vbe sure which way that went. But he either way he said the Green color bearing set was the old or the new and the Blue was the newer or the older design and I want to be sure I get the newer design - whichever it was. (sorry very bad memory - from not one bu two head injuries - one of which almost killed me) Anyways, the older design - if not torqued right by a do it your selfers  - would come apart pretty quickly and they had a lot of them returned. The newer design however, had a spacer added in the middle - so they could not be over tighten and thus fixed all the returns by those who did the work them selves. (He was very helpful with that porject.)

 

So as you see a lot of things have to be worked out and that is why I ask questions and take the time.

 

Many thanks to everyone for your time and input!

Please keep it coming. It is very useful.

Sincerely, Tony

 

PS - I plan to use Air Ride system on top of the spindle and not the stanard front coil socks.

This will porvide a much better ride and as I get older - make it much easier to level a coach when camping.

No having to go outsdie in the rain and block the tires to ge tthe coach level.  GGG

Edited May 30, 2013 by Ultravan Owners

[matt167]

You can use whatever you want for suspension, but I think the key to it is getting something AWD or 4wd with independent suspension and use the rear setup. You just need to have the CV axles assembled with ends to fit the transmission splines and the bearing ends on the spline ends in the hubs.

 

I would use an auto level airbag system

Edited May 30, 2013 by matt167

[Ultravan Owners]

You can use whatever you want for suspension, but I think the key to it is getting something AWD or 4wd with independent suspension and use the rear setup. You just need to have the CV axles assembled with ends to fit the transmission splines and the bearing ends on the spline ends in the hubs.

 

I would use an auto level airbag system

Matt,

 

Thanks, I do understand.

 

My point was IF I have to use everything from the Subaru to make it work and the computer to operate; I'm not sure if I will be able to use all the wiring, computer and ABS brake system from the Subaru and (somehow) be able to connect the ABS wire connectors from the Subaru harness to the Hubs/Bearings of a 2004 and up Impala with ABS? 

 

Or the other choice - IF it do NOT have to use the ABS and wiring for it from the Subaru - I could use everything from the larger Impala.

 

Either way the outer CV joint on the Subaru axle would have to be replaced with one that fits the Impala hub. Or a custom axle made with the correct ends for both.

 

 

Tony