Subaru noob coolant hose question

[vladvv]

Hey guys, I'll be doing a timing belt/water pump kit soon, and want to replace any coolant hoses at that time since I'll have the coolant drained.

 

I'm having a hard time finding a list of all the rubber coolant hoses on my car so I make sure I check them all or just replace them all while I'm at it. (Working on my Miata there was an OEM kit of every single hose that I bought)

 

So is there a list of all these hoses, and is there an easy way to buy them all? I see only some are available aftermarket, I guess OEM for the others?

[heartless]

upper & lower radiator hoses, the short hose by the throttle body (smaller diameter), and the little hose down by the water pump are probably the only "shaped" hoses you should need.

 

the radiator hoses you should be able to get from any chain parts store...the little short hoses by the throttle body & water pump should be easily obtained from a dealer - price compare between local & online sources (dont forget about shipping costs!)

 

the other heater hoses (going from engine to heater core) can easily be replaced with off the shelf, by the foot hose of the appropriate size (5/8" for most applications) - unless you are a fanatic about OEM appearances...in which case, again price compare between local & online dealers...

 

Throttle body hose: #5 in this diagram

 

Water pump hose: #6 in this diagram

 

(edit to add - you didnt specify what year/model you have so I used the diagrams for my 98 Forester - most others should be very similar however)

Edited July 17, 2013 by heartless

[MilesFox]

Gates and goodyear are good brands for hoses, and even the timing belts. try to stay away from chinese quality for timing belts, although they are cheap enough to replace, and no damage done when they do, but more life from better quality..

 

The 90 deg elbow hose under the water pump can be any generic molded bend from the parts counter. Just select one and trim it to size. Go with 5/8" diameter.

 

Replace the heater hoses with properly molded hoses and pay attention to the routing around the starter, throttle, and clutch cables. Be careful not to pull the speedo cable out from the firewall as it is easy to do by mistake.

 

And i'm sure you have found the timing belt article and or videos already.

Edited July 18, 2013 by MilesFox

[vladvv]

 

 

 

(edit to add - you didnt specify what year/model you have so I used the diagrams for my 98 Forester - most others should be very similar however)

 

 

Oops! I added car in profile and figured it would show up under my name or something, added to Signature now. 

 

Okay thanks guys, looks like there's 6 hoses total to worry about, so I will look at 6 hoses and replace as needed. That's pretty much what I wanted (I expected more since I think Miata had 9? I'm still pretty new to working on cars)

 

As far as timing belt I'm looking at a gates kit with water pump, and Timken/Felpro camshaft and crank shaft seals, and I believe the oil pump o ring and gasket is included in the fel pro kit with crankshaft seal. I don't really care about keeping everything looking OEM, just has to be functional and good quality.

 

 

I got the car for really cheap, but it was a little neglected in terms of maintenance other than oil changes. Every time I drive it I think about how great it rides considering the age of the suspension parts and such. I am a strong believer in preventative maintenance and so the car is slowly getting caught up on all the scheduled items that I do not have a record for (including timing belt/water pump which are original)

[heartless]

the good news is the 95 should still be non-interferrence so if the timing belt should give up on you, it wont cause any damage internally.

 

Rockauto.com and SubaruGenuineParts.com are both decent places to buy parts online - just remember to include any shipping costs for comparison purposes.

 

Timing kits can be found on ebay for under $200 for the whole works.

[vladvv]

the good news is the 95 should still be non-interferrence so if the timing belt should give up on you, it wont cause any damage internally.

 

Rockauto.com and SubaruGenuineParts.com are both decent places to buy parts online - just remember to include any shipping costs for comparison purposes.

 

Timing kits can be found on ebay for under $200 for the whole works.

 

I was surprised when I found out the 95 is non-interference, but I know that if it breaks in the middle of a road trip I'll be paying hundreds for someone to do it, and I also know rubber parts become pretty brittle after 18 years. 

 

I am actually planning on buying the Gates kit from Amazon, it's cheaper than Rockauto:  http://www.amazon.com/Gates-TCKWP254-Engine-Timing-Water/dp/B003TUA5W6/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=3UTE5RI7D1DXL&coliid=I2XFJP4TQF4SZF  (it also helps that I have some Amazon gift card / rewards points etc)

 

comes with new tensioner, water pump, and belt marked with lines to help you line up the timing

Edited July 18, 2013 by vladvv

[Fairtax4me]

That's is an astounding deal on a timing kit with a new tensioner. Usually without that the kits are $120-$150 and the tensioner is another $90+.

 

One quick tip, if that kit comes with a paper water pump gasket just throw it out. Get a dealer gasket (stamped steel coated with rubber) or just use anaerobic sealant. (Do not use Blue RTV)

 

Upper and lower radiator and the J hose on the water pump are the biggies. The heater hoses almost never go bad, but if you do replace them just get the molded ones from the dealer. I think it's less than $30 for the pair.

The last radiator hoses I bought were Dayco and they sucked as far as fitment is concerned. Kinda feel like I wasted my money on those but they haven't blown up yet so maybe the hassle of cutting and trimming and trying to make them fit properly was worth the $5 I saved. (Also having regrets about the Dayco alternator belt I just bought. coincidence?) Dealer hoses aren't that expensive and will last longer than the rest of the car, and they fit perfectly without cutting.

[heartless]

I was surprised when I found out the 95 is non-interference, but I know that if it breaks in the middle of a road trip I'll be paying hundreds for someone to do it, and I also know rubber parts become pretty brittle after 18 years. 

 

I am actually planning on buying the Gates kit from Amazon, it's cheaper than Rockauto:  http://www.amazon.com/Gates-TCKWP254-Engine-Timing-Water/dp/B003TUA5W6/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=3UTE5RI7D1DXL&coliid=I2XFJP4TQF4SZF  (it also helps that I have some Amazon gift card / rewards points etc)

 

comes with new tensioner, water pump, and belt marked with lines to help you line up the timing

 

Gift cards are a definite plus! hehe and yeah, that is not a bad price at all for the whole kit & a Gates kit to boot. (mental note - remember to look at amazon for the next time...)

But - does it include the oil seals?? I dont see any mention of those, and they really should be replaced while you are in there...4 seals: 2 cam, 1 crank, & 1 oil pump.

 

I personally have never had a problem with the paper type water pump gaskets, but, I do give them a thin coating of ultra grey to help hold them in place during installation - perhaps that is why?

 

for the heater hoses (that go to the heater core) unless they are showing obvious signs of leaking or damage, I would just let them be - but up to you...

 

another thing to look at will be vacuum lines - those definitely get hard & brittle with age/miles. there are a couple of small ones on the passenger side, behind & under the intake that are especially prone to this. Stock, off the roll vacuum line by the foot is fine for replacing these - have done it several times.

 

for future reference, here is the digital FSM for your year car: http://jdmfsm.info/Auto/Japan/Subaru/Legacy%20Outback/1995/Service%20Manual/

 

In all honesty, with a few common tools, a belt can be replaced in a matter of a couple of hours - the biggest issue with the EJs is compressing the hydraulic tensioner - this can feasibly be done with a large C clamp - and hang on to that little pin from your new tensioner!

 

I learned (the hard way) a long time ago to carry a toolbox with the necessities on longer road trips. Had the main crank bolt come loose on my 89 GL once while on vacation, and I had NO tools with me! Borrowed a cresent wrench to snug it up then went to the local Walmart & bought a Stanley socket set with the right size socket in it to tighten it more. Still have & use that set regularly today.

 

Necessities are:

metric socket set w/ratchet - 3/8 drive - 10mm to 22mm - for almost everything

breaker bar w/22mm socket - 1/2 drive - for the main crank bolt (may possibly want a cheater bar/pipe along with this for extra leverage)

large screwdriver or prybar - to hold tranny flex plate (auto) while removing/installing crank bolt (manuals can be put in a higher gear & parking brakes applied in a pinch)

a good philips screwdriver

a large C clamp

a pin to hold the tensioner after compressing (can use a small allen wrench in a pinch - alternatively, if the old one is still in good condition, it can be compressed at home, pinned, and carried with you, eliminating the need for the C clamp)

a belt (a used one in good condition will work for an emergency - just make sure there are no cracks or other damage)

pliers (both regular & needlenose) - for the spring type hose clamps

 

I also throw in a can of PB Blaster (penetrating oil), a couple of rags, a roll of electrical tape, sidecutters, 3/8 extensions (couple of sizes) & a spark plug socket - just because...

[vladvv]

I ordered the two camshaft seals (TIMKEN brand) and a Crankshaft seal kit (fel-pro TCS45919, looks like it includes oil pump gasket and o ring in it?) from Rockauto.

 

I'll look into buying the water pump gasket and any hoses that don't look like they've been replaced from Subaru (Where do you guys buy your OEM parts? heartless mentioned SubaruGenuineParts)

 

And yes I agree on the keeping tools in the car, but crank bolt coming loose is pretty serious, should I be using thread locker on it or just torque it to spec and it'll be fine?

 

Also, as far as compressing the tensioner being a pain, the Gates kit from Amazon comes with a new tensioner that is pre compressed (as far as I can tell from the images)

 

 

edit: I wasn't kidding about Amazon gift card credit and rewards points : http://i.imgur.com/M4eMnDO.png

 

 

edit2: looking around on SubaruGenuineParts just to see what the hoses cost and such, can only find lower and upper radiator hose and the little water pump hose. Can not find throttle body or heater core hoses.

Edited July 18, 2013 by vladvv

[vladvv]

I took a look at my hoses they are pretty dry looking, some look torn or like they're getting ready to fall apart where the clamps grab them. I believe I found all the Subaru part numbers in case anyone in the future needs them:

 

edit: I also found molded rubber Gates hoses including the heater hoses

 

Heater hose inlet 72411AC020 (also Gates 19133)

Heater hose outlet 72421AC000 ( Gates 19131 )

Little water pump hose 807615081 (GATES 19535)

Throttle body hose 807607191 (Gates 18010 or 18257)

Radiator upper hose 45167AA020 (Gates 21851)

Radiator lower hose 45167AA030 (Gates 21852)

 

 

I went with the Gates hoses since they were 40% cheaper or so ... and most are the right shape already so no rerouting or anything crazy

Edited July 19, 2013 by vladvv

[nickb21]

Excellent research, thanks! This is on my to-do list as well.

 

That water pump bypass hose is like $16 (OE), a bit pricey, but it does have 2 or 3 bends in a short span.

 

Now, what kinda new hose clamps to use.. 

Edited July 19, 2013 by nickb21

[Fairtax4me]

I reuse the weird band clamps if they're in good shape, but I've twisted and even broken a few due to rust. In which case I just replaced them with a random stainless ring clamp.

BMW sells some really nice hose clamps that don't stress the hose when you tighten them but they cost like $5 a piece. I just grabbed a handful from the shelf in tractor supply for $1.50 each since they looked nicer than the ones at the local parts stores.

Napa is probably a good source for quality clamps as well.

[nickb21]

Hehe, lot of lengthy threads on 'best hose clamps'.

 

I like those OE 'wire' ones, but they never seem to last through the rust and salt. Agreed - I pickup stainless worm drive clamps from TSC or the Orange Box. (The 'T' style ones are pretty nice too, $$.)

[heartless]

I have NEVER been able to reuse the OE wire type hose clamps - in fact, more often than not I have to cut them off because they are so rusted (small bolt cutters on the rusted up screw) If you are lucky enough that you can reuse them, great! but it has never happened for me...guess that is what happens when you live in the rust belt.

 

replacements are usually good quality SS band clamps - not the cheap ones, either... just dont over-tighten them to the point that they start cutting into the hose...

Placement is also important - do not place them right up tight to the bump in the hose nipple - leave about 1/8" space between clamp & bump. If the clamp is right up against the bump it will be more likely to cut into the hose causing premature failure.

 

[vladvv]

replacements are usually good quality SS band clamps - not the cheap ones, either... just dont over-tighten them to the point that they start cutting into the hose...

 

What exactly is the difference between good quality and cheap ones? And can I get good quality ones at Home Depot or Online or what?

[heartless]

cheap ones are just that - cheap - and they will rust.

 

good stainless steel ones will cost a little more

 

home depot? well...maybe...you would probably have better luck finding good ones at your local hardware store.

 

cheap clamps will have rather sharp edges that can cut into your hoses - good quality ones wont.

Edited July 21, 2013 by heartless

[later, Peter]

be careful about getting *ALL* the air out of the cooling system... this was/is the down fall of many Subaru head gaskets...

[vladvv]

I started looking at "nice" clamps and realized the subaru OEM ones are like $1-3 a piece which is often cheaper... I bought some of those - I got all my parts and took the car apart today, everything is going smoothly except the timing cover... whoever thought of putting a metal nut held in by the rear plastic cover, and exposing the back of it to elements... probably not genius... my plan is to throw a longer bolt and washer + nut to hold covers on where I can.

 

Only had a couple hours today, will finish up tomorrow and post some pictures. Only other issue is I forgot to buy sealer for the oil pump - I actually got a gasket with the Fel-Pro oil pump seal (the blue o-ring) but I figured since Subaru didn't use a gasket neither will I. Or I'll do the gasket + Permatex Ultra Gray

 

Thanks everyone for the help picking parts and such.

Edited July 27, 2013 by vladvv

[matt167]

The only factory fit hoses I put into my '99 ( '96 EJ22E ) was the coolant crossover hose by the thermostat and the radiator hoses. I made the heater hoses out of 5/8" hose off the roll and it clears just fine. The 2 hoses made from 3/8" fuel line fit on the back of the intake with a small loop. Not a bad deal considering they are hidden by the airbox... BTW, I see your from Binghamton.  I was at Garys U pull it the other day and pulled a AM/FM/WB Cassette/CD radio from a 1997 Outback as a spare. I found a better radio that is identical to mine in a red '99 Legacy GT and left that radio in the drivers side  rear floor . Fri/Sat/Mon at Garys this weekend has $15 radio's so if your car still has a stock radio, that could be a nice sub $20 upgrade.                                                                                                                                                                                                        

[vladvv]

Removing the oil pump one of the bolts snapped.... not sticking out below, flush with the surface.... yay

[Fairtax4me]

Well that's a setback for sure.

 

Get a tube of Anaerobic sealant for the oil pump. RTV can be used SPARINGLY, but the anaerobic is much better and does not set until the parts are bolted together. It also will not dry into little globs that can clog oil passages like RTV will.

Toss the gasket. It will cause a leak.

[vladvv]

 

The only factory fit hoses I put into my '99 ( '96 EJ22E ) was the coolant crossover hose by the thermostat and the radiator hoses. I made the heater hoses out of 5/8" hose off the roll and it clears just fine. The 2 hoses made from 3/8" fuel line fit on the back of the intake with a small loop. Not a bad deal considering they are hidden by the airbox... BTW, I see your from Binghamton.  I was at Garys U pull it the other day and pulled a AM/FM/WB Cassette/CD radio from a 1997 Outback as a spare. I found a better radio that is identical to mine in a red '99 Legacy GT and left that radio in the drivers side  rear floor . Fri/Sat/Mon at Garys this weekend has $15 radio's so if your car still has a stock radio, that could be a nice sub $20 upgrade.                                                                                                                                                                                                        

Thanks but I already have a unit put in that I had from before... I'm not going to be in Binghamton until late August, but I can't wait to go to Gary's because I know they always have lots of mid 90s to early 2000s subarus

[vladvv]

Well that's a setback for sure.

 

Get a tube of Anaerobic sealant for the oil pump. RTV can be used SPARINGLY, but the anaerobic is much better and does not set until the parts are bolted together. It also will not dry into little globs that can clog oil passages like RTV will.

Toss the gasket. It will cause a leak.

I'm thinking Anaerobic would have been better but I already did it up with Permatex Ultra Gray (Subaru recommended I believe) I ran a bead as small as I could and pretty far from the inside edge where ever possible... I guess if it fails it will be a costly lesson heh

[vladvv]

So I finally got car back together, took me way longer than it should have but I was distracted this weekend with other things.

 

Anyways, if anyone wants pictures for reference or whatever I have an album here: http://imgur.com/a/CnoX4

 

And some notes and/or problems I ran into:

• Snapped bolt... terrible and hours of time wasted... Could not extract it since it was really seized in there, ended up drilling it out and attempting to re tap the threads back to M6 but those did not hold, ended up getting a Helicoil set which was expensive but worked really really well at restoring the threads, new bolt holds strong.
• Heater hoses: The Gates hoses were a great fit, here is a photo comparing the Gates hoses vs the OEM hoses http://i.imgur.com/npAh95Mh.jpg Pretty damn good. I could not get the heat shield sleeves off of the old ones so I decided not to use them.
• Timing belt covers: A lot of these bolt into a small metal nut held in by brittle old plastic in the rear cover, and the back of this nut/bolt assembly is exposed to the elements. I believe 75% broke on removal. I used longer bolts with a washer and a nut to hold the covers on, this works fine since the hole goes all the way through the rear cover. 
• Burping air out of cooling system... I read in some places raising the car helps, I put the front on ramps and tried burping the car, I never got the air blowing hot inside and my temp gauge started to climb above the middle, I got worried and shut the car off. I let it cool for a while and then tried to put the ramps under the back of the car, and then the front again. Rocking the car back and forth seemed to quickly get bubbles out. After this everything seemed fine, with heat working and temp gauge staying below middle. This is all while squeezing hoses and such. 
• Oil pump seal: Everyone says put the seal on the pump when it's out. I could not get it to go on the crankshaft like this, it would always catch on the lip and I ended up damaging one seal. The next one I put the oil pump in first and then tapped in the seal with no issues. To each his own I guess.
• Hose clamps: If your car is old and driven in the north east United States, I can guarantee the lower screw clamps will be seized and will fall apart. I bought the Subaru OEM ones and replaced those. Some hoses use spring clamps, for example the small water pump hose - in my experience these are a lot more durable and I was able to reuse every single one, they still had good tension.
• Upon starting the car I got a temperature sensor error code with a check engine light. I reset it and it did not come back. Maybe something to do with low coolant? Or maybe I nudged the sensor when I was changing the throttle body hose?

 

btw: behind oil pump is kind of dark/greasy... felt like a fine film of old oil, is this normal or a sign of missed oil changes?

 

Thanks everyone for the help answering my questions!

Edited July 30, 2013 by vladvv

[nickb21]

Excellent info, thanks! Did you end up doing the heater hoses?

 

I usually park on a slight uphill, fill the radiator, then fill the block using the upper rad hose (full as possible before connecting it) and haven't had a problem.