heartless Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 so we finally got the new starter for our 98 Forester project, got it all installed, along with new front O2 sensor (got a rear one as well, but that is another issue), brand new plugs & wires (both NGK) exhaust is all hooked up, air intake is all hooked up, battery installed...turn the key - she turns over great, but doesnt fire. it WILL fire with a quick shot of starting fluid, but then dies right away - so I am assuming spark is ok. Pulled the cargo area covers out (and yet another issue rears it's ugly head) and opened the fuel pump access - using a multi meter - we do get a brief reading of 12 v at the fuel pump plug when the key is turned to on - but I do not hear or feel the pump kicking in at all when it is plugged in - even with the access cover off... dead pump? with a voltage reading at the pump plug, I am guessing fuse & relay are ok - correct? so what else could it be besides a bad pump? ok - on to the "other issues" rear O2 sensor - were there 2 different sizes of plugs for these? Ordered from Rockauto - for the 98 Forester 1 upstream - triangular plug - fits fine, no issues installing 1 downstream - square plug - the sensor side of the plug seems way too small - will not plug in. any thoughts on where water could be getting in to fill the drivers side rear quarter area (the space behind the rear wheel well - found this after removing all the cargo area covers to do some cleaning out) - the car is not rusty at all so I have no idea how the water got there (not to mention it hasnt rained enough in weeks here to get that much water in there! it had to have been in there when I got it back in June. Passenger side is dry as far as I can tell (cant get my fingers all the way in there to be sure) The spare tire well also had water in it - found a missing body plug in there...under the thick rubbery lining - but - if the water couldnt get out thru that hole, how did it get in there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Dead pump or bad ground. Got a donor EJ car around? the gas tank wiring plugs are all teh same, and the big wires are the pump 12v pos and Ground. Cut out the pigtail and use it as a jumper to give the pump 12v to prove bad or good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted August 17, 2013 Author Share Posted August 17, 2013 nice thought, but the what remained of the donor car went bye-bye last week... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 (edited) Well, take a look at the plug, the 2 big wires are the pump power so find a way to jumper to those posts. I believe they are both along one edge of the connector. Like 1 and 4 of 6 here: 1 2 3 4 5 6 Maybe insulated aligator clips? Edited August 17, 2013 by Gloyale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted August 17, 2013 Author Share Posted August 17, 2013 will see what i can come up with...have some old plugs from other things lying around, maybe I can get the actual connector parts out and use those... is there any way to test the relay? (and relay location?) or am I correct in thinking voltage at the plug would mean relay is fine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted August 18, 2013 Author Share Posted August 18, 2013 (edited) well, it would appear that the pump itself is dead. oh yay... this car has turned into quite the money pit.... anyone know anything about the O2 sensor question??? nevermind - figured it out - there are actually THREE different styles of plugs for the downstream. Plan on calling Rockauto tomorrow Edited August 18, 2013 by heartless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 That's too bad the donor is gone. Coulda used the pump from it. Glad your getting it worked out. I want to get a 98 Forrester and put a 95 2.2 into it. Plug and Play! WOOT! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted August 18, 2013 Author Share Posted August 18, 2013 (edited) Honestly, Gloyale - I think we already stole the pump from that donor car for my current dd... got our eyes on 2 different pump assemblies on the fleabay - one is just the main pump assembly, and one has both main and secondary...one of them will be coming here! LOL funny you should mention 95 2.2 into the 98 Foz - we JUST picked up a 95 Legacy 2.2 (w/EGR) with a bad tranny (picked up on tuesday) It is mighty tempting.... But, have other plans for the Legacy, so its motor will be staying put. Car is on otherwise pretty good shape. Once we get the Foz sorted out and running, I will be driving it for a bit - we will be taking the tranny out of my current daily driver (getting exceedingly rusty, but still runs/drives great) and putting it into the Legacy to get it going again, then I will take over the Legacy, and Madkow will take the Foz to get out of his current dd - an 04 Mercury. Edited August 18, 2013 by heartless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 How brief is the 12v reading? Should be about 2-3 seconds, coinciding with the click of the fuel pump relay under the dash. Did you remove the plug on the pump and make sure the connector isn't melted? A bad connection could keep the pump from running even if you have 12v at the plug. I don't remember exactly where the pump grounds, but check voltage on the ground side as well to check for a bad ground. If you get high voltage (more than .5v) on the ground pin at the pump (meter negative to chassis ground) you have a poor ground. I'd also pull the pump and check out the wiring in the tank. With the pump out (allow it to dry first) you can use two short jumpers from the battery to see if the pump runs. Don't run it for long because the pump needs fuel to cool it. Should only need it to run for a second to confirm operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 the reading lasted a couple seconds (didnt have a stop watch handy) but long enough that it "should" have kicked the pump on for the initial prime. the plug itself is pristine white inside - no melting, not even a little discoloration. the individual connections all look good - no corrosion showing anywhere. pulling the pump out is next on the agenda - soaking the nuts/studs good in PB first for a couple of days - kind of rusted up & I really dont want to break anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 ok, so how do I disconnect that "clip on" style fuel line connector? Do I need a special tool for this, or can it be done with regular hand tools? everything is fairly rusty in there, including the metal nipples the fuel lines connect to. I have managed to break all the nuts free - nothing broken so far - hoping it stays that way - but I need to get the fuel lines off before I go much further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Press in on the collar. The GM or Ford tool for fuel lines works for this, or you can simply press them down with any tool that works. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 so, squeeze the inner "clip" portion and slide the outer part off? (hopefully) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Not squeeze, push down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 push down on what? This is what I am looking at...from the back looking forward: from the side... Has that white tab on both sides - it looks to me like the white parts need to be squeezed inward to be able to slide the black part off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 the white parts need pushed down into the black part. White part needs to slide on the tube, further into the black part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 i finally managed to get the darn thing off - was not an easy task as rusted up as things are. but yeah - squeeze the white tabs to "unlock" the connection (they do NOT slide up in the black part further - will get some more pics later), and the black section slides off over the white tabs (again - not an easy task, but it does come off with a bit of effort) there was a small pop when it finally broke free, and I got a tiny little splash of fuel - already had a rag under it just in case. anyway - 12 volts connected directly to the pump itself does absolutely nothing. I think it is safe to say that this pump is dead. "new" used pump assembly is on its way already - snagged up from fleabay last night - just hope the thing is as advertised...seller has a good rating, but we shall see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 (edited) here is a shot of the nipple end with the fuel line off. There is no way the white part was going to "slide" anywhere...you can see the two locking tabs that snap into place in the slots of the black piece. Because of the crusty rust buildup, I had a hard time sqeezing the tabs in far enough to release the black part...gotta love salt induced rust...Not! Edited August 19, 2013 by heartless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Did you get a whole pump assembly? (With tank cap?) I'd replace that whole thing to avoid issues with leaks and broken lines later on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Did you get a whole pump assembly? (With tank cap?) I'd replace that whole thing to avoid issues with leaks and broken lines later on. +1...........just too much rust on everything. I agree, you are much better off replacing the tank, if you intend to drive this car for any extended period of time. Otherwise, you will be replacing the tank in the near future. Lots easier replacing now, then in the middle of January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted August 20, 2013 Author Share Posted August 20, 2013 Did you get a whole pump assembly? (With tank cap?) I'd replace that whole thing to avoid issues with leaks and broken lines later on. yup - it is the entire pump assembly that is coming. the donor was a 98 Forester, AWD, auto, with 114K on the clock (i asked about mileage). the only thing I may have to re-use is the rubber gasket/seal, and that looks to be in ok shape - should be fine with a little cleaning up (stuck on rusty particles). and yeah, I would have reservations about re-using that top piece since the metal nipples were bending when I was trying to remove the rubber lines...that is never good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted August 25, 2013 Author Share Posted August 25, 2013 ok, so the saga continues.... got the new used fuel pump installed - all connections are solid, everything that should be is plugged in. turn the key, crank, crank, crank (i know it takes a little time to get fuel to the engine after having lines disconnected - tried multiple times over the course of several minutes) - no fire - still... Pulled #1 spark plug - it is slghtly damp & smells like gas...hmmm...so it IS getting fuel now... So I wonder to myself - how strong is the spark? Sure it fires off with starting fluid, but starting fluid is supposed to fire easily - wouldnt take much of a spark to ignite that. So I dig out the old Rem-Star (remote starter unit) that Skip (miss you buddy, hope life is treating you kind!) helped me create so many years ago when I had similar issues with the old GL - not even sure if it would work on this new of a car... Well, it does! Keeping the #1 plug out, pulled the plug wire out of its holders so I could ground the plug on a body bolt, set up the rem-star & hit the button - and the spark is quite weak - very orange in color, not a strong, blue-white like it should be... So - is this an ignitor unit issue? or is it a coil pack issue? I have a 95 2.2 Legacy (known runner) sitting here that I could temporarily steal parts from to test, but which one should I try first? Which would be the most suspect? and what are the chances of getting good used units - for either one (or both)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 How's the battery? Low voltage will lead to a weak spark. I'm not sure how conclusive the "visible spark" test is with the wasted spark setup. You could still have a fuel delivery issue, or the fuel in the tank could just be ancient and isnt potent enough to fire anymore. Check secondary coil resistance and see if it is below spec. If you want to, try another coil. Check the center pin at the coil to make sure it is getting at least 12v when cranking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted August 26, 2013 Author Share Posted August 26, 2013 (edited) ok, so looking up what the specs are supposed to be for the coil pack I see major differences between 98 and 90 versions and what they are calling "primary" and "secondary" 1990 FSM001.pdf 1998 FSM coilpak.pdf 1990 FSM is calling the the main coil pack the "primary", and the connector the "secondary" 1998 FSM is just the opposite....connector is "primary" and main coil pack is "secondary" Engine, and coil pack, is a 1990 with newer style wiring harness installed, and the throttle body from the original 2.5. Should I have swapped over the coil pak as well? and to add to my confusion - I looked up the specs for the 95 to see if maybe I could use it ... 95 - Main coil pack is called "primary", like on the 90 FSM, but with the exact same specs as listed on the 98's "secondary"...there have got to be some typos going on here...but which version is right? Edited August 26, 2013 by heartless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 Gotta love them discrepancies! Primary is always the 12v side of the coil. (12v pin to negative pin) Should be low resistance, a couple ohms at most. Not usually the problem side if you actually get spark from the coil. Secondary is the output side (12v pin to output post). Generally gonna be in the 10-20 K (kilo) ohm range. This is the high voltage side that makes the spark. This is the one you want to check. Just replaced a coil in my buddies Accord that was spec'd at 14-17 Kohm. Measured at just under 11K ohm. Not a huge difference but enough to weaken the spark and prevent starting. Low resistance reading means partial shorting of the coil, which lowers the output voltage. With the wasted spark system it may jump one plug (the "wasted" plug), but may not be strong enough to jump the plug gap of the plug that is under compression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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