questions on lifting my 95 legacy sedan

[porcupine73]

On a '96 Legacy I used Outback struts with Outback King springs and then put on some larger snow tires I actually had for my '00 Outback. It's been working pretty well for a number of years. If you also go with larger wheels then you can upgrade the front calipers and rotors to something a bit larger for better performance with the larger diameter.

 

[cymbri]

Best of both worlds, 96-99 legacy outback struts and gen1 Forester springs. Nets a hair over 3" of lift, gives you the best tire to strut clearance of the options above. And the ride doesn't really change drastically if you keep sway bars connected.

 

I am a shade tree mechanic with 15+ years of hands on subaru experience, and I have personally ran this setup.

 

 

that is very nice, wouldn't have though of it either. thank you!

[cymbri]

I ran without a rear sway bar on my lifted Forester and saw very little difference. I also have run several lifted cars both with and without bigger bars. IMO, it's not really worth the hassle unless you drive your car hard, meaning, fast through corners all the time. Even with no sway bar, that's possible. Not saying it can't be done. But there's also a difference in the curves of the sway bar between Legacy and Impreza/Forester chassis. They might fit, they might not. And even of they fit, they might have the wrong bend so the geometry is off, and it ends of making no difference. Just food for thought.

 

I generally take it easy, since I just got the car and it has 200k+ miles on it. But I love being able to corner hard and fast when needed, and handling, to me, is one of the most important aspects of a car since it goes along with keeping the car under control

[cymbri]

On a '96 Legacy I used Outback struts with Outback King springs and then put on some larger snow tires I actually had for my '00 Outback. It's been working pretty well for a number of years. If you also go with larger wheels then you can upgrade the front calipers and rotors to something a bit larger for better performance with the larger diameter.

 

I have 16" rims with low profile tires on it now, since i got them as a set for a steal.  I figure the next time I need tires I'll get bigger beefier ones.

 

I still haven't gotten around to getting it worked on, but I am definitely going to lift it, and the legacy outback struts with the forester springs and upgraded sway bars seem like the way to go.

 

a friend of mine does the work on my car, since I don't have the skill or tools necessary. He hates working on cars, but does it  for extra cash and because he knows how. So It makes sense that if i'm paying him to do the struts, that I have him do the rest of the work that requires taking the wheels off and suspension apart at the same time.

 

I'll post before and after pics once everything is done in about a month or two.

 

Just to be clear:

96-99 legacy outback struts

1st gen forrester springs

longer sway bar, like from an outback

and bigger rotors with calipers to match

 

I may need to adjust my tie rod ends, does that mean I need to get them for a different model? I have to at least replace my front inner tie rods ends, and get a new alignment anyway. Should i just get new tie rods all around?

 

While I trust my friend to do the work, I need to buy the parts, and he's never done a lift on a legacy so I appreciate all the responses, thank you all!

[heartless]

96-99 legacy outback struts yes

1st gen forrester springs yes

longer sway bar, like from an outback - not longer - larger - as in diameter of the bar

and bigger rotors with calipers to match - not a necessity, but an option

 

I may need to adjust my tie rod ends, does that mean I need to get them for a different model? No, it just means they may need to be adjusted - usually done at alignment time. 

I have to at least replace my front inner tie rods ends, and get a new alignment anyway. Should i just get new tie rods all around? Not necessary unless you need them.

 

Have been driving my 95 Legacy with the Forester strut swap for a week now - really liking it. It rides very well - better than the other half's 04 Mercury Sable. Handles well too

 

You say you just got the car - something you might want to take care of, if it hasnt been done recently - Full Timing job!

Just did mine this weekend (206K) and I was definitely running on heavily borrowed time! Timing belt had pretty severe age cracking, all the idler pulleys sounded like they had rocks in them, and the upper radiator hose was about to blow - was so thin in one spot you could see daylight through it! and the small coolant hose off the water pump was pretty mushy as well...

Edited December 9, 2013 by heartless

[bratman18]

I generally take it easy, since I just got the car and it has 200k+ miles on it. But I love being able to corner hard and fast when needed, and handling, to me, is one of the most important aspects of a car since it goes along with keeping the car under control

Same here, and from my experience, you don't notice any worse handling with the Forester struts and no or small rear sway bar. I daily drive this combo, along with a lowered car, and another lifted old gen.

[cymbri]

I picked up a set of 05 forester springs and struts since my used part source sells full sets at a good price and doesn't carry anything as old as my car.

 

I also got a set of 17" rims and tires. I have 16"s on it now but thy are low profile so that's 2 more inches right there.

 

​Apparently I also needed to get legacy outback trailing arm brackets to have the lift done properly.

 

Later on, I may get wrx swaybars and bigger rotors/brakes, but it's not like my car has an insane amount of power that I have to worry about those right now.

 

I should have the work done in a week or so, I'm pretty sure my friend wants to lift his forester before he does my car just out of principle.

[Bushwick]

Later on, I may get wrx swaybars and bigger rotors/brakes, but it's not like my car has an insane amount of power that I have to worry about those right now.

A front WRX bar is not plug and play. I have a STi bar and it'll need custom stand-off blocks on the frame/crossmember to clear the exhaust leaving the heads, OR custom pipes with different radius to clear the straight bar from a WRX. i.e. the Legacy bar has "U" hoops to clear the exhaust and the WRX bar is basically straight across since the turbo'd cars have different down pipes. If you went with the custom pipes, I suggest sourcing factory WRX down pipes, and cutting the flange OFF just before it connects to the turbo, and welding in a universal fitting. Then, fit in a section of pipe with a matching fitting and route it to your existing mid-pipe. Lot of work, but the final result will be a better handling Legacy. Considering you are putting 17" rims in there (more unsprung weight) with much wider tires than stock, It'd probably be worth the extra effort to improve the handling characteristics for even low speed turns. 

 

For the rear, it's easier to source an Outback swaybar from the late 90's as it's a direct fit and needs no mods. I suggest sourcing some aluminum end links from a WRX (aftermarket) and making those fit as they should help the factory bars work a little more efficiently considering plastic isn't exactly rigid or strong, and will snap over time. Try the Outback bar first on the rear, if it's not enough, then source a STi rear bar. You'll need Forester stand-offs to get it to clear the rear exhaust hoop I believe. Forester stand-offs in question are about 3/4" taller from what I've been told. 

 

You don't need a ton of power to appreciate better handling, but if you improve the tire grip, you'll worsen the already weak sway bars, though the fronts aren't nearly as bad the "pinky finger" sized rear bar we get factory. The Outback bar is like going from a "pinky" to a "thumb" in diameter, so well worth it. The stock STi bar is only a mm or so larger. If it were me, I'd probably go with a 20-22mm rear bar to get the most out of your wide tires and extra lift. 

 

I made a custom rear (4 point) shock tower brace in my 9-3 Saab and the handling improvements were very good. I noticed a huge improvement with slow speed, 90 degree turns where it just points and goes. I'd suggest doing the same for your Legacy by making a cross bar that connects at the top of both rear struts, then "T" it down so attaches to the floor's brace just by the seats. Make a 4 point so it has 2 different floor attaching points and then cross brace those to the horizontal bar. If down carefully, it won't interfere with anything in the trunk, and if the rear seats are down or removed, it'll still be minimally invasive. Carpet the pipe, wrap in vinyl, or powder coat, etc. and it'll be very inconspicuous. I made my 9-3's to be easily removable w/o the knowing it was ever there in case it's a turn-off for a future buyer if it ever gets sold.  I spent about $25 in parts from Lowe's and used square tubing. Picked up a $100 arc welder from Harbor Freight that welds thicker steel very well and it's already paid for itself many times over now.

Edited January 25, 2014 by Bushwick

[cymbri]

Thanks, Bushwick! I didn't realize it would be so involved to use wrx sway bars. In that case, I will just upgrade the rear sway bar with an outback one if I bother with the sway bars at all. I don't do the work myself, but I will pass this on to my buddy that does the work if I want to swap out the sway bar. He has acetylene torches and a good arc welder at his disposal.  

 

The lift is done, and I had actually gotten 16" rims, and 215 60 tires. It seems to corner as well as it did before, though a do feel the body lean more. Overall, I'm very happy as I live in eastern PA and there's loads of snow and ice on the road right now.

 

My biggest complaint is that it accelerates more slowly at lower speeds, I'm told it's because of the gear ratio changing from the larger tires... As far as I know, there's not too much that can be done to increase power in my car. I can also feel that it doesn't stop as well, but brakes are an easy fix.

 

Are the rotors with the grooves and/or holes be worth it as opposed to getting a lest costly larger diameter rotor? Are there better OEM rotors and calipers that will fit my car?

 

[86BRATMAN]

With those 16s you can use any wrx brake setup, even the 4 piston calipers from the 06/07 cars. That being the most expensive option, but any standard 02-05 wrx brakes will swap without any trouble, just get the matching calipers, brackets, rotors, and pads. I personally would stay away from the drilled rotors as I've seen them crack from heat around the holes, slotted are a decent upgrade as it allows for quicker cooling, but on a street car the difference wouldn't really be noticed.

 

If you want a big front sway bar, the B9 Tribeca bar is a simple bolt in and we'll documented on the web. 96-99 outback rear bars is as simple as it gets for an upgrade out back. I'd recommend changing out the end links front and rear, along with the mount bushings before making the decision to swap the bars, in my 97 they were completely shot. New bushings really changed the dynamic of my car for the better.

[Fairtax4me]

Yes, You effectively have a final drive ratio change because of the tires. Similar to changing from a 4.11 FDR to a 3.90 FDR. Somewhere online I saw a calculator that showed the difference in power put down by the wheels with different size tires. That was several years ago though, it may not be around anymore.

 

 

Look into a set of Delta torque grind cams. Under $200 and makes a big difference in bottom end power, especially with the auto trans.

[cymbri]

With those 16s you can use any wrx brake setup, even the 4 piston calipers from the 06/07 cars. That being the most expensive option, but any standard 02-05 wrx brakes will swap without any trouble, just get the matching calipers, brackets, rotors, and pads. I personally would stay away from the drilled rotors as I've seen them crack from heat around the holes, slotted are a decent upgrade as it allows for quicker cooling, but on a street car the difference wouldn't really be noticed.

 

If you want a big front sway bar, the B9 Tribeca bar is a simple bolt in and we'll documented on the web. 96-99 outback rear bars is as simple as it gets for an upgrade out back. I'd recommend changing out the end links front and rear, along with the mount bushings before making the decision to swap the bars, in my 97 they were completely shot. New bushings really changed the dynamic of my car for the better.

 

 

Thank you! It's difficult for me to get parts for anything older than 2000. My used parts source has almost any used subaru part you'd want 2000 and after, so I can pick up a whole wrx brake set, rotors, calipers, and pads from there. The outback rear sway bar i'd probably have to get from ebay, but I should be able to get a front tribeca one from my used part source. 

 

I've heard that thicker sway bars aren't ideal for off-roading because you want your car to be able to tilt. Right now there's 9in of snow that has turned to ice, and another 3 in of snow on top of it, so the roads that haven't been plowed are the equivalent of off roading. I need it to be able to drive with two tires up on 8 in of snow/ice and the other two in a rut if I want to pass someone driving down an alley...

[cymbri]

Yes, You effectively have a final drive ratio change because of the tires. Similar to changing from a 4.11 FDR to a 3.90 FDR. Somewhere online I saw a calculator that showed the difference in power put down by the wheels with different size tires. That was several years ago though, it may not be around anymore.

 

 

Look into a set of Delta torque grind cams. Under $200 and makes a big difference in bottom end power, especially with the auto trans.

 

I used a calculator like that to figure out how much faster i'd be going than what the speedometer says, I don't really know how to equate a difference in power in print to how a car drives so a calculator like the one you mentioned would be interesting for me to compare the before and after.

 

I will look into the delta torque grind cams, are they time intensive to replace?

[Fairtax4me]

They had a calculator where you put in estimated engine torque, tire size, gear ratio sand all that and it figured an average powertrain torque loss, then would show approximate torque/horsepower delivery. Kinda neat. I searched but couldn't find it.

 

I don't know all the calculations, but torque is pretty simple.

 

Expressed as foot-pounds, its a measure of twisting force in pounds on the end of a 1 foot bar. So say you have 100 ft lbs, that's 100 pounds of force 1 foot from the pivot point of the bar.

You get the same amount of force by putting 50 lbs at the end of a 2 foot bar.

It takes 200 lbs to create the same force, if the bar is only 6" long.

 

It works the same the other way. If you twist hard enough to make 100 pounds of force at 1 foot, that same force will make 50 pounds at 24", 200 pounds at 6".

 

Using the 100 ft lbs example. Lets say you were putting 100ft lbs to the road with the stock size tires, approximately 24" in overall diameter. (Makes it very simple at just 12" from center to the road)

Your new tires are approximately 26" in overall diameter.

Roughly 8% difference in size.

8% of 100 is 8. 100-8=92.

That extra inch of reach from the axle to the ground means you're now putting down about 92 ft lbs at the road.

 

It's probably more complicated than that, but that gives a good general range for what to expect.

 

 

Cams are not hard to put in. No worse than a timing job, the only extra steps would be to pull the valve covers and the rocker assemblies. Takes all of 10 minutes to pull the rockers off each side.

Though you do need to pull the radiator to have room to pull the drivers side cam out.

Passenger side slides out of the back of the head and has plenty of room.

[cymbri]

 

Fairtax4me:

 

(Nice Cake siggy by the way)

 

It is difficult for me to think in terms of American units when science is taught using metric.

 

While I understand the concept of torque, your examples made me think more deeply on how it applies to my tires. The wheel surface is now farther away from where the force is applied to turn the wheels on the bigger tires, therefore less force is applied to the tire surface resulting in what feels like slower acceleration.

 

Kind of how a large spinning tractor wheel will look like it's going faster in the very center and slower on the outer edge.

 

Thank you for giving me the info on cam replacement. I don't think I can convince my "mechanic" to do it, his thoughts are that my engine has over 200,000 miles on it so why bother. I see his point, and I think the better, easier fix would be to put my low profile tires back on it for the summer and use bigger tires in the winter. My low profile tires are on another set of 16" rims. Additionally, being a bit under-powered in the snow is ideal for traction.

 

I will definitely upgrade the brakes, since that can be done cheaply and easily (can get a used wrx brake/caliper/rotor set for $125)

 

Now I just have an awd issue, which I will make a new thread for since it's not related to my lift.