Grrr... Muprhy Failed Smog!

[Sonicfrog]

And here we go with the Smog-Drama!

After having a "bit of a problem" with the exhaust system last week...



(fixed of course), Murphy, the 1987 GL-10 Turbo Wagon failed smog today. The problem is at idle / 954 RPM.
 

CO MAX is 1.00

 

I'm at 8.76.

 

HC MAX is 270.

 

I'm at 576.

 

The numbers on the high RPM are fine, at .32 and 51.

 

I'm going to change the plugs, wires, disty... The usual subjects... And do a Seafoam treatment out in the country tomorrow for good measure. Both front and back CATS were replaced last year, and the OX sensor is pretty new also.

Anything else I should look for?

Edited October 24, 2013 by Sonicfrog

[greg454]

New clean oil will also help a little bit. 

[Sonicfrog]

Just changed that about 700 miles ago.

[yblocker]

My unblown '92 failed up here in Oakland due to high idle.  You need to get it below 800 rpm first (ideal is 700).

My coolant temp sensor was the main glitch, as mine was idling around 1,000 rpm.  Once I replaced the CTS it idled right down.

I cleaned out the idle air valve, and replaced all dry vacuum lines too to eliminate vacuum leaks.

[Bdawg22]

Sonicfrog, I feel for you and Murphy. My Dorothy (87 DL) failed yesterday in the south bay. I may be a bit down farther away from passing than you but found this one time waiver program that I'm considering:

http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/80_BARResources/02_SmogCheck/Referee_Centers-FS.pdf

 

The $650 repair bit is no fun--maybe some beer for the tech?

 

I'll keep an eye on your thread though for pointers for when I try to repair the problems myself.

Happy smogging :/

[TallonX]

She's obviously runnin rich at idle so your either getting too little air or too much fuel.

 

That's an MFI system isn't it?

[Sonicfrog]

Yeah... It's multiport.

[TallonX]

Check your tps iac and temp sensor o2 might be actin up as well new or not

[Gloyale]

She's obviously runnin rich at idle so your either getting too little air or too much fuel.

 

That's an MFI system isn't it?

 

High CO and HCs readings would suggest too lean at idle i think.  Like vacuum leak

 

Not enough fuel for the amount of Oxygen so the excess bonds with carbon = CO

 

Coversely incomplete burn latent moisture in the air i.e. hydrogen bonds with Carbon rather than with Oxygen = HC

 

Complete burn the oxygen and hydrogen will bond yeilding clean water or steam in the exhaust rather than HC or CO

 

Carbons stay in short chains isolated as sooty material.

[TallonX]

High HC and High CO = rich

 

High HC and Low CO = lean

 

Low HC and High CO = burning oil

 

Hydrocarbons are our fuel source, I know where your coming from Gloyale but this is stochiometrics not just lighting something on fire which produces high levels of both and the emissions of which can be used as a fuel source in it's self, wood gas generators are an example, fun to build too not too practical power to weight.

Edited October 27, 2013 by TallonX

[Gloyale]

High HC and High CO = rich

 

High HC and Low CO = lean

 

Low HC and High CO = burning oil

 

Hydrocarbons are our fuel source, I know where your coming from Gloyale but this is stochiometrics not just lighting something on fire which produces high levels of both and the emissions of which can be used as a fuel source in it's self, wood gas generators are an example, fun to build too not too practical power to weight.

 

I know what Stoichiometry is.  I even know how to spell it too.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometry

 

And I still say he's got a lean condition.

 

That's why at wider throttles....i.e. higer Rpm/load applications things are fine......more gas.

 

I've been doing these EA82t's for a long time.  They develop vac leaks.  Most likely the intake boot supplying the turbo is cracked, or the PCV hoses are brittle and leaking a bit too.

 

We will know when the OP posts new results.

[TallonX]

Sigh... not trying to but heads with you dude why are you nitpicking? Neither of us can give a knowledgable answer without knowing the NOx output anyway lol

[PA Grown]

Make sure it's warmed up all the way and it's not shut off while you're waiting in the line to the smog chamber.

[PA Grown]

Oh and maybe some fuel treatment additive to make it run cleaner? Aka higher grade ethanol?

[Sonicfrog]

OK.... Finally got around to having it smogged again. The tech was kind enough to do an off-line scan . I have replaced the plugs, wires, disty cap and rotor, plus replacing the t-stat (the old one was a 180 instead of 192 temp) and it still put out really bad numbers. It did improve a little bit, but I need it to improve a LOTTA bit.

Not quite sure where to go from here. Will probably start with the O2 sensor, as that is the cheapest part on my list of possible problem parts.

PS. I've checks for vac leaks... Can't find any.

So... Here we go again.

 

 

PS: High HC and CO means too rich, which would explain why my MPG is crap.
 

Edited January 10, 2014 by Sonicfrog

[Idasho]

Time to move to Idaho 

[Sonicfrog]

[Sonicfrog]

New smog results.... Improved... But still failed.


At idle, HC is down to 345 from 576, and CO is down to 1.29 from 8.76.

So it's still runniing rich. 

I replaced the Ox sensor and the engine temp sensor. Plugs, disty and wires are new.  The cats are less than two years old. I'm not sure where to go from here.

It may finally be time to retire Murph.

[ruparts]

New smog results.... Improved... But still failed.

 

 

At idle, HC is down to 345 from 576, and CO is down to 1.29 from 8.76.

 

So it's still runniing rich. 

 

I replaced the Ox sensor and the engine temp sensor. Plugs, disty and wires are new.  The cats are less than two years old. I'm not sure where to go from here.

 

It may finally be time to retire Murph.

 

 

hi,

  not to rain on your parade but aftermarket cats are   " so bad " they usually only will pass once,  when they are just put on.   maybe?  the next time if not very  many miles ago ,  but i doubt they going to pass the third time,  it's very common here to have to do it every year,, in fact they tell you warranty is 1 year for them when installed,, which means by the time you need to pass again a year later it is due for a new cat again.    the quality of aftermarket cats is appolingy poor.

[ferp420]

hi,

not to rain on your parade but aftermarket cats are " so bad " they usually only will pass once, when they are just put on. maybe? the next time if not very many miles ago , but i doubt they going to pass the third time, it's very common here to have to do it every year,, in fact they tell you warranty is 1 year for them when installed,, which means by the time you need to pass again a year later it is due for a new cat again. the quality of aftermarket cats is appolingy poor.

what he sead

if the car is running perfect it wont need a cat at all but these motors are older burn alittle oil maybe alittle low on compresion the cats are saposed clean all that up and after market cats suck and wont hold up to less than ideal conditions i run a msd clone igition unit that makes multiple sparks under 3k makes for a nice complete burn and clean emitions but might not pass visual inspection i hide mine under the spare tire and i go to the smog only smog ref guys they atleast know there isht and the cleaner the oil the less burning it will afect the emisions so change it right before you smog it i.also.have a smog designated exaust system i through on for tests and then pull it off again and run my home made set up the rest of the time might be a way to go.for you have new cats made up that bolt in take them out after the test and you will have a nice fresh cat for your next smog

Edited January 17, 2014 by ferp420

[mcmillonbe]

I feel your pain. I bought a 87 Brat back in the fall, I thought it would be no problem, just a little work to get it pass smog.  First e test, it blew 3800hc, after a good tune up with oil change and carb rebuilt got it cut in half to 1800hc at idle.  Next,  I got the distributor rebuilt, fixed all the vacuum leaks, verified by vacuum gauge and it went done to 800.  Before the 4th attempt I replaced the non working EGR valve with brand new one and ran a high concentration of denatured alcohol and dumped the timing to 4 degrees.  It still failed but was at 250 hc vs the required 220.  At this point, I ended up going to the Board of Air Quality and got a one year waiver.  Good luck!

[Sonicfrog]

OK. Ran some "Guarenteed To Smog" stuff through the tank. Also, one thing I didn't do was to reset the ECU, which I assumed would readjust once I put the new parts in. I'm thinking that I wass wrong and should have done that. So either tomorrow or Tuesday, I'm gonna give 'er on emore go. If it doesn't pass, it may be time to let the girl go. God knows I've put her through enough.

[TomRhere]

One thing I didn't see mentioned in the thread is the injectors. Read a few threads of MPFI owners having issues with them, as in leaking when engine not running, or bad spray pattern(s) from them.

Leaky/dirty injectors could be your issue here.

 

I really don't know a lot about FI systems, just tossing out ideas.

[Sonicfrog]

One thing I didn't see mentioned in the thread is the injectors. Read a few threads of MPFI owners having issues with them, as in leaking when engine not running, or bad spray pattern(s) from them.

Leaky/dirty injectors could be your issue here.

 

I really don't know a lot about FI systems, just tossing out ideas.

I'm going in that direction. If the injectors were leaking, there would be more gas at idle as there is a longer pause in between injector firings, thus more fuel leaked into the cylinders at idle.  I just ordered some from Rock Auto for 88 smacks with shipping.

[Sonicfrog]

It's Feb 10. Got the new injectors in and replaced just about all the little vac hoses. Went in to get it smogged today and...

Still didn't pass!!!!

However,
there is encouraging news. Where before the HC and CO at idle were so
far off it was a gross polluter, now the CO is good and only the HC at
idle is high. It's at 248, and max is 120. But it's down from the 576
mark at the first test.

The car runs so much better and quieter than it has in a long long time.

I have replaced the plugs, cap, rotor, fuel injectors, O sensor, temp sensor, a bazillion little vac hoses.

I
didn't replaced the spark wires as they weren't that old, but I may
just do that anyway, because maybe they aren't as new as I'm thinking.
I'm also going to do the seafoam treatment. So if you're in the Fresno area, and you see a huge puff of
smoke out in the wilderness today, it's probably me!!!