Snow

[briankk]

Friday night, we got about 6-8 inches of sugar-like powder in these parts, and I learned the the capability of the Soob to deal with this is WAY overstated.

 

I have an uphill dirt and gravel driveway, maybe 50-75 yards long, I drove down and went about my business without incident, but when I came home, the Soob (90 Loyale, 410k miles) wouldn't go up the driveway.  The 4WD is actually 2WD, one wheel in front would drive, one in the rear.  The car would climb up about 4 of its own lengths, they slide back down, pretty much without regard for anything I did.. 

 

My kid came over with his Toyota PU, drove up and down several times, no problem.  My boss came over in her Lexus SUV, up and down three or four times and left.  I tried again with the  Soob, got the same results as before..  Decided to park it at the bottom of the driveway for the night, but when driven off the plowed road, the car high-centered on 6-8 inches of sugar, we had to dig it back down to where the wheels would touch the road, then dig down to the dirt in front of the wheels before the car would move.

 

Following day, had business in a town 20-30 miles away, came home 'bout 2 pm, was able to get up the driveway and unload groceries, when I tried to move the car it slid off to one side of the driveway and spun its wheels..  We dug it a track to its parking place, where it now sits, waiting for a thaw.

 

I got on the net and looked into this.  It seems that Toyota has a computer-controlled traction assist, it drives both axles, if the computer senses a wheel speeding up, it applies the brake on that wheel alone, which puts the power to the other one instead.  It seems to be a electronic rip of the Mercedes 4-trac system of the '80s which was mechanical when it first came out..

 

Anyhow, it's quite apparent that the Toyota/Lexus so superior to anything with a transfer case as to make it obsolete.  So.. Did Subaru ever build such a traction control, or are they still using the old stuff?

 

bk (snowed in)

[robm]

Wow.  I have never had a problem with high centreing.  Or traction.  Even in 2 feet of snow, or anywhere else.  But then, I run 4 studded snow tires in the winter.  What kind of tires do you have on?

 

Chances are the Toyota, and maybe the Lexus too, have way more aggressive tread, as well as the traction control.

 

 

 

i

[jmoss5723]

Look up VDC. Subaru uses this system in the more modern cars.

 

However, without knowing more details, I'd bet your issues have more to do with tires than anything else.

[MilesFox]

A GLsubaru never cost $35,000 to begin with. The toyota probable has locking front and rear diff. 

[ferox]

First off, is this for real?

 

It's a '90 Loyale.  That means it only has 4WD Hi.  4WD is only as good as your tires.  OP did not mention anything about tires.  Sounds like you have done a lot of research about advanced traction control systems without knowing anything about the basic ones.  4WD Hi plus worn tires or street tires = suck, on any car.  

 

Since you are wondering whether Subaru ever developed a traction control system or whether they are still using the old stuff, do a search for symmetrical all-wheel drive.  I highly suggest you learn more about the capability of your equipment or keep it parked for the sake of everyone else on the road.

[SmashedGlass]

When I still lived in Colorado, I had absolutely no problems when it was pure crap out. Matter of fact, I was sailing right past supposedly "real" off-road trucks and SUV's that had slid into curbs and whatnot because they were too heavy to deal with the slush and ice under the snow. Good tires (Winter iPikes, w/o studs) + low vehicle weight = win.

[bratman18]

I was going to say, must be some pretty bad tires, or maybe just some worn all seasons? I have usually found my Subaru, any of them, out drive any SUV or pickup in the snow.

[81EA81]

That is a pretty funny story,perhaps it could be a combo of bad tires and a bad driver? It takes some finesse at times, WOT isnt always key.

[Gloyale]

Sounds like a case of bad tires or at least over-inflated or both.

 

Combined with a perhaps less than , uh.......seasoned.... driver?

 

 

Any 4 wheel drive with open front/rear diffs would do the same as for spinning 2 tires if you spinout.

[naru]

Any 4 wheel drive with open front/rear diffs would do the same as for spinning 2 tires if you spinout.

 

Not the traction control equipped ones.

 

Traction control is a great addition to any 2 or 4wd vechicle for winter driving.It greatly increases capability.

I`ve had ones that would not move in the snow until the traction control was turned on.

[Gloyale]

Not the traction control equipped ones.

 

Traction control is a great addition to any 2 or 4wd vechicle for winter driving.It greatly increases capability.

I`ve had ones that would not move in the snow until the traction control was turned on.

 

kinda falls into the lsd catagorie

 

Ishould have said any 4wd with ONLY open diffs and no traction control.

 

I am not aware of many cars from the 80'/early 90's with any form of electronic traction control using the brakes/throttle inputs.

 

At any rate this is purely a case of spinning out with wrong tires/pressure or both.

[naru]

I`d take traction control over a LSD any day.

 

I first experienced traction control in a cheapo mid-early 90s Ford fwd van.

I was thouroghly impressed.

 

Have since experienced a full size ford van go through low traction situations that would have stopped it w/o traction control.

 

Just agreeing w/the OP.Traction control equipped cars ARE superior.

Wish I had it on my 84.

[mr sarcastic]

Dude must have junk tires.... Tires mean everything in the winter, it's funny to me when people buy suv's or pickups and think they'll be invincible in snow. They leave the stock tires on and think that's gonna be fine. This is where I feel awd has given most drivers a false sense of security. Sure you got out of your driveway but the awd won't help you stop at a stop sign or give you traction in a turn that's incorrectly banked. That's where good tires come in. That being said, there is a fault with ea82's, they don't weigh squat. We have an Audi a6 wagon Quattro, and it definately plows through the bank at the end of the driveway, first shot. The Subaru I can feel lift up as I push through, so I have to back up and take multiple shots at it.

[briankk]

Dude has $500+ set of Michelin Defenders, which are street tires, for sure.  I anticipated this might be a problem last year, tried to round up a set of 14" tires I could fit my studded Nokean snow tires to,  was simply unable to find a matched 14" set of rims that would fit the Soob.

 

bk

[Gloyale]

Dude has $500+ set of Michelin Defenders, which are street tires, for sure.  I anticipated this might be a problem last year, tried to round up a set of 14" tires I could fit my studded Nokean snow tires to,  was simply unable to find a matched 14" set of rims that would fit the Soob.

 

bk

 

$500+ must include the mount/balance...or else you got ripped off for 13" tires.

 

Anyhow....what I would suggest would be to try to find a set of Nissan pickup 14" rims like these..

.from 90's model 2wd "hardbody" pickup's.  Redrill them to 4 lug.  Most tire shops will mount tites onto them like this, but you may have to put them on the car yourself.

 

Or, if you want to run alloys or don't want to install them yourself, you could redrill the hubs to 6 lug.

[SmashedGlass]

Briankk, try looking for Hankook Winter iPikes  in 175/70R13. They're commonly available (at least they were back in Colorado) and come at a fair price. Excellent winter grip, studded or unstudded, and road noise on dry pavement is acceptable. You can get them studded or non-studded; any good tire place can stud the former for you.

[AdventureSubaru]

Dude has $500+ set of Michelin Defenders, which are street tires, for sure.  I anticipated this might be a problem last year, tried to round up a set of 14" tires I could fit my studded Nokean snow tires to,  was simply unable to find a matched 14" set of rims that would fit the Soob.

 

bk

 

Try not to be too offended by a few of the comments here. Generally speaking, Subarus are beasts in the snow. But they can be easy victims under the right circumstances since they are lighter than most 4x4s and are often equipped with street tires whereas bigger 4x4s usually had more options in a more aggressive tread.

 

Street tires will spin easily in snow. I would guess that was your biggest problem. But seeing as you're located in California, is no surprise since snow is less frequent than many parts of the country.

 

The fact that you have an open differential would make this problem more noticeable and has you seeing front and rear single wheels spinning.

 

Lastly, (If I'm wrongly assuming here, I'm sorry) but there is a whole different set of driving rules in the snow. If you haven't had a bunch of experience in it, it's fine to be learning now. But hills in particular require keeping forward momentum going - crawling is for rocks - accelerating is for snow. Accelerating before a hill, zig zags when necessary to gain traction if the wheels are spinning. A lot goes into it that you'll best learn by just driving in the white stuff and getting a feel for your car. We've just about all been stuck in the snow at some time or other and learned from it.

 

Grew up on the east coast and dealt with snow for 6 months out of the year. Got stuck a few times. Spun out a few times. Learned a lot from it. Couple years ago my brother and I road tripped from Chicago area to Pennsylvania and back it late November for hunting season. Hit lake effect snow both times. About 1500 miles mostly driving on white stuff - in a 95 Honda civic coupe with street tires. On a few steep hills, we passed a large number of 4x4s and AWD vehicles stuck in the snow and spinning out without making it to the top and we made it over without issue.

 

Point being - experience will add as much capability to your vehicle as modification. The same way many Subaru equipped off road guys on here will regularly pull stuck jeeps out. The jeep is probably more designed for that sort of thing, but wheeling a subaru required that they gained a ton of experience.

Edited December 10, 2013 by AdventureSubaru

[Gloyale]

Point being - experience will add as much capability to your vehicle as modification. The same way many Subaru equipped off road guys on here will regularly pull stuck jeeps out. The jeep is probably more designed for that sort of thing, but wheeling a subaru required that they gained a ton of experience.

 

I actually did pull a stuck Jeep out back on friday night when this snow hit here in Oregon.  2010 Wrangler 4 door (no lockers, street-ish tires way to hard psi)

 

I completely agree with everything you wrote with the exception of "acceleration is for snow"  I disagree a bit.  You do need to keep momentum, yes.....but it should be gained on the flat with good traction.......Once headed up the hill, if you try too hard to accelerate you will peel out like the OP experienced.  Steady throttle to keep from having too much wheel speed.

 

I also would add that the light weight will actually help when the snow is deeper, as heavy rigs sink in while subies (with the right tires, aired down) will ride up onto of the snow.  It all depends on excactly what type of snow you're dealing with too. But in most cases I would take a low and light suby in the snow anyday to a heavy, tall, truck or jeep.

 

Briankk, we've all been stuck, it's true.  No offense meant by me or I think anyone.  It is true though, that tires make all the differnence.

[ferox]

Yeah Briankk, we don't mean to dogpile on you, but I think it's safe to say that when people get on here and blame the equipment, it triggers annoyance in many of us, which is probably true for any 4X4 forum. Imagine if you will, a parallel hypothetical situation in which someone posted:"The stopping power of the Subaru is overrated.  We had 6-8 inches of snow and when I came up to a stop light and hit the brakes, I slid out into the intersection."  Would that be an equipment issue or an operator issue?  Many of us went through this when we were teenagers so it's kind of second-nature at this point and seems inherently obvious even though it's learned.  Anyway, didn't mean to gang-up on you, we're here to help.

[briankk]

I actually did pull a stuck Jeep out back on friday night when this snow hit here in Oregon.  2010 Wrangler 4 door (no lockers, street-ish tires way to hard psi)

 

I completely agree with everything you wrote with the exception of "acceleration is for snow"  I disagree a bit.  You do need to keep momentum, yes.....but it should be gained on the flat with good traction.......Once headed up the hill, if you try too hard to accelerate you will peel out like the OP experienced.  Steady throttle to keep from having too much wheel speed.

 

I also would add that the light weight will actually help when the snow is deeper, as heavy rigs sink in while subies (with the right tires, aired down) will ride up onto of the snow.  It all depends on excactly what type of snow you're dealing with too. But in most cases I would take a low and light suby in the snow anyday to a heavy, tall, truck or jeep.

 

Briankk, we've all been stuck, it's true.  No offense meant by me or I think anyone.  It is true though, that tires make all the differnence.

 

 

I agree entirely that it's likely a tire issue, but one thing that bothered me is that on 6-8 inches of snow, the car will high-center and the tires become useless, since they can no longer reach the road.  Had to dig the Loyale back down to the ground twice yesterday...  Lead me to wonder if I just let the car idle for a while, will the exhaust melt me back to the ground?;-)

 

Wish I could get some wheels to mount my 14" Nokians on..

 

bk 

 

 

Try not to be too offended by a few of the comments here. Generally speaking, Subarus are beasts in the snow. But they can be easy victims under the right circumstances since they are lighter than most 4x4s and are often equipped with street tires whereas bigger 4x4s usually had more options in a more aggressive tread.

 

Street tires will spin easily in snow. I would guess that was your biggest problem. But seeing as you're located in California, is no surprise since snow is less frequent than many parts of the country.

 

The fact that you have an open differential would make this problem more noticeable and has you seeing front and rear single wheels spinning.

 

Lastly, (If I'm wrongly assuming here, I'm sorry) but there is a whole different set of driving rules in the snow. If you haven't had a bunch of experience in it, it's fine to be learning now. But hills in particular require keeping forward momentum going - crawling is for rocks - accelerating is for snow. Accelerating before a hill, zig zags when necessary to gain traction if the wheels are spinning. A lot goes into it that you'll best learn by just driving in the white stuff and getting a feel for your car. We've just about all been stuck in the snow at some time or other and learned from it.

 

Grew up on the east coast and dealt with snow for 6 months out of the year. Got stuck a few times. Spun out a few times. Learned a lot from it. Couple years ago my brother and I road tripped from Chicago area to Pennsylvania and back it late November for hunting season. Hit lake effect snow both times. About 1500 miles mostly driving on white stuff - in a 95 Honda civic coupe with street tires. On a few steep hills, we passed a large number of 4x4s and AWD vehicles stuck in the snow and spinning out without making it to the top and we made it over without issue.

 

Point being - experience will add as much capability to your vehicle as modification. The same way many Subaru equipped off road guys on here will regularly pull stuck jeeps out. The jeep is probably more designed for that sort of thing, but wheeling a subaru required that they gained a ton of experience.

[Gloyale]

Anyhow, it's quite apparent that the Toyota/Lexus so superior to anything with a transfer case as to make it obsolete.  So.. Did Subaru ever build such a traction control, or are they still using the old stuff?

 

Uhhh.......?   The Toyota/Lexus probably DO have a transfercase, and low range.  Not sure what year/models we are talkin bout here.

 

Subaru's, espescially a single range Loyale, do not have anything you could call a transfercase.

 

As for traction control......here's a good demo of Subaru's newest type of (VDC) traction control

 

I love how you can see it kinda "walk" it's way up by altering the slip/grip from side to side.

[Gloyale]

I agree entirely that it's likely a tire issue, but one thing that bothered me is that on 6-8 inches of snow, the car will high-center and the tires become useless, since they can no longer reach the road.  Had to dig the Loyale back down to the ground twice yesterday...  Lead me to wonder if I just let the car idle for a while, will the exhaust melt me back to the ground?;-)

 

If you were grabbing snow with good tiresyou would stay on top of it. Not just spinning it out from under the tires/melting it from spinning making ice. You would not have gotten stopped/high centered.  You would have continued to push over the top of the snow.

 

And no, the exhaust will not melt you out.

[86 Wonder Wedge]

I also look at it this way. What would you rather do? Do you want to go forward and back in the snow or do you want to be able to turn and stop?

 

I see people load-up their (and their kid's) pick-ups and/or cars with several hundred pounds of salt/sand/whatever to "add weight to keep traction".

 

Yes, this does work to apply a greater force on the contact patch, but then that bitch physics comes in. When you change the angle of force application on a near-frictionless surface, the momentum can be devestating. Imagine standing on a bowling ball on an ice rink. Then lean over. Not good.

 

Point is heavier stuff tends to "grip" better, but lighter stuff can recover quicker. Have that toyota and lexus slam on the brakes about half way down the driveway and compare it to your loyale. You'll probably have 10-30 feet less sliding distance then they will. And IDK about you, but 10-30 feet can be the difference between a close call and an accident, bridge, cliff, ect.

Edited December 10, 2013 by 86 Wonder Wedge

[Gloyale]

Here's a Forrester, too old to have VDC.......might be low range, w/ limited slip cause it's Siberia and he's got chains on all 4 tires......

 

But it's DEFINATELY not highcentering.....just plowing though cause he's got TRACTION

 

[bratman18]

I'm not buying that it's high centering on 6-8" of snow. 

 

I took my 98 Forester with snows through 4' (feet) of snow, up a 30+ degree slope, for at least 200 yards (my driveway) last winter, and made it to the top without issue. While that does have more ground clearance than a stock Loyale, I still should have high centered with that much, yet I didn't. I had to stop 3 times in fact, to clear a foot of snow of my hood and windshield so I could continue on to make it to work for power restoration.