Extreme Cold Weather Starting Problem

[IdiotSavant]

Hello gentlemen,

 

The last few days have been brutal, temperature wise, hitting -30C to -40C.

 

My 99 Legacy GT has been having problems starting.

 

I first noticed the problem when using my remote starter. It didn't start up until about 3-4 minutes after I pressed the button. My Compustar system tries to start the car a few times before giving up. Usually, it starts up right away. I drove around for a while and the car seemed fine.

 

The next day, I went to start the car manually and the engine cranked halfway, then stopped. There was no clicking from the starter and all the electrical components(radio, lights, etc) were still working fine.

 

I eventually got it started after trying for about 5 minutes, but it was an extremely rough start. Once the engine warmed up, it sounded smoother.

 

My first assumption is the battery, as it's about 4 years old. It's probably not sending enough current to start the engine. But wouldn't all the electrical components die after attempting to start the car?

 

It could possibly be the starter as it's never been replaced since the car was manufactured. Same applies to the alternator.

 

Last assumption is that it's just so cold that the oil is too thick to properly lubricate the engine. (using 5w30 mineral).

 

I'm going to be buying a new battery this week, but is there anything else I should be looking at?  

 

After researching some related topics here, I read that fuel delivery could be a problem. The fuel pump has never been replaced, but I always replace the filters regularly. Spark plugs and wires were changed about 70k km's ago with OEM parts from the dealership. 

 

As always, your help and insight is well appreciated.

 

Cheers

[5kiddad]

A friend in Montana says to always carry a bottle of Heet in the car for Temps under 5 below. He says the water in the fuel lines freeze. He is a master Porsche mechanic and says it has saved his life many many times. Just keep a bottle in the car for the winter.   

[MilesFox]

my guesses are:

weak battery 5 yrs or older

old fuel filter moisture icing over below freezing.

 

a battery too weak to turn the starter will still power the car and accessories. What you are thinking of is bad terminal connection where all power is lost until a wiggle is given to the terminals.

 

Start with the battery. An old battery that seems fine at 35 deg can fall on its face at 20 degrees. Have it load tested at your local auto store. If you feel like it, remove the starter and load test it. A starter with a shorted armature can act like a weak battery when the battery is 100%

[upnorthguy]

I don't know about keeping "a" bottle of Heet in the car...keep a pile in your car when it is that cold!  

 

In MN, I would put in one bottle when I filled up the tank.  The product info says each bottle (12 oz) is good for up to 20 gallons of gas.  http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/heet/faq.aspx

[Fairtax4me]

A battery heater would do you some good. Same with a block heater if you don't have one.

Battery's don't like cold. Cold sucks the life out of a battery. At 0°F a good battery only has about 3/4 the cranking amperage capacity of a battery at 70°F. Take another 30 degrees off that and you're down to only 2/3 the capacity. And that's with a GOOD battery. If your battery is old, those heating and cooling cycles take their toll. As a battery ages it is less able to handle extreme cold and can actually freeze solid. Once a battery has frozen the lead grids inside are permanently damaged and often short the cells.

 

Even of the battery tests fine when warm that doesn't mean it has enough amps to start an engine when its 30° below. I would definitely put a fresh battery in.

[potter2010]

We get the same kind of cold here and I've found that a battery warmer and block heater are essential, though Fairtax4me covered that. I also have a 1.5A trickle charger mounted under the hood for good measure to keep the charge up during the really cold nights. You may want to use gas line antifreeze as well, I do. Everytime you fill up pour a bottle in the tank first. They're pretty cheap per bottle, maybe a $1 or $2 each and available at any gas station or hardware store. It helps to keep the gas moving well for those cold morning starts. Some people use oil pan heaters but I've heard it can mess up your oil a bit over the long term but that may not be an issue with synthetic oil, I'm not sure. On a side note, you can also buy interior car warmers so the stearing wheel and seats aren't so cold when you get in!

[Ravenwoods]

An oil pan heater pad and engine block heater are more important than a battery warmer. Here in Fairbanks Alaska we routinely get cold temps like this. I used to have the battery heater also, but as long as your battery is healthy and you have a block heater and an oil pan heater, your engine will crank over easily and start pretty good. Will run rough for a bit and make all kinds of aweful noises. This is if your engine is well maintained. Ours has 215,000 miles on it and still going. But fortunately we have a warm garage for it to enjoy at night. 

[IdiotSavant]

Thanks for all your insight, gentlemen.

 

My car is already equipped with a block heater. I think it was included in the cold weather package. I have never used it before. Then again, I've never had problems starting the car in cold weather. Also, I don't have a driveway, so I'd have to run an extension cord across a busy sidewalk to plug it in. 

 

I had no problems starting the car this morning at about -18C. However, I did notice the oil level was rather low, so maybe a lack of oil prevented the engine from cranking properly.

 

I still picked up a new battery today since it's due to be replaced anyway. I'm also going to try and find an oil pan heater to be better prepared for next deep freeze we get.

 

I'm going to be testing the starter and alternator tomorrow to make sure they're still functioning properly. With busy holiday plans ahead, I sure don't want to be left stranded anywhere.

 

Thanks again. You guys are a wealth of information.

 

Cheers!

[ivans imports]

Sometimes when I do headgaskets the injectors are seeping and leak fuel while sitting mabe injector leaking or spraying to mutch fuel flooding it out

[MilesFox]

My woman's father lit charcoal briquettes on a shovel to place under the oil pan once when it was too cold to start, before draining the battery.

[jp98]

One your next oil change you might want to switch to a full synthetic oil.  On the bottle of heat it all depends on the places that you get your fuel at.  Some have more water in their gas than others and a bottle of heat will not do you any good unless you put it into the tank.  Changing out the battery for a new one is a good choice. 

[MilesFox]

10w30 oil for above freezing avg temp, 5w30 for below freezing avg. temp

[IdiotSavant]

The reason I've been hesitant to switch to synthetic is because the engine has only ever known conventional oil. I remember reading that on these phase 1 EJ25D engines, it's not a good idea to suddenly switch to synthetic at such a high mileage.  The head gaskets have never been done. 

 

Is that true or can I safely switch to synthetic without worry?

[johnceggleston]

 

He says the water in the fuel lines freeze.

water in the gas will cause head aches,

but if your gas has ''up to 10% ethanol'' i doubt it will be a problem.

alcohol absorbs water, so you would have to have a lot of water in the system.

and years ago i heard that the active ingredient in those gas additives was in fact alcohol.

but i don't really know and that was 30 years ago.

 

plus, frozen gas is not going to keep the battery from turning the engine over.

battery and cable connections first.

start there and see if that helps.

 

use the block heater,

and if you must,

move to florida.

[Ravenwoods]

Check to make sure the block heater is actually functioning by putting your hand on the block near the block heater to see if it is warm. Here in Fairbanks, Alaska, they urge everyone to plug in their block heaters and oil pan heaters when it is 20F or colder. A warm block greatly reduces the amount of unburned hydrocarbons your exhaust pipe puts out into the air. We get temperature inversions here that trap pollutants in air and the air can get quit bad. The oil pan heater really helps the engine to spin over nice and fast and reduces engine wear at those low temperatures. If you cannot find one in the stores there, let me know and I can mail one to you. You just use some silicone sealant to glue it onto the bottom of your pan. 

[potter2010]

I might look into an oil pan heater. I had heard they can sludge up your oil quicker but that's probably with conventional oil more so than synthetic. Anyone else heard of this?

[heartless]

if you already have a block heater why not use it?

 

Oil pan heater still has to be plugged in to function, so you would still be running an extension cord to where ever the car is....lay a small rug/welcome mat over the cord where it crosses the sidewalk.

 

I might look into an oil pan heater. I had heard they can sludge up your oil quicker but that's probably with conventional oil more so than synthetic. Anyone else heard of this?

 

maybe if you left it on all night every night, but it doesnt need to be on all night - a half hour to an hour, depending on temps, before starting is plenty of time to warm the oil.

we have a magnetic one that the other half used to use on his old GL that didnt like starting in the cold - he would stick it on the oil pan the night before but not plug it in - in the morning he would plug it in when he got up.... oil/pan was plenty warm by the time he was ready to start the car and it would start much easier. Just dont forget to unplug/remove it before leaving...

[zedhead]

FWIW, buying a bottle of heet for every tank is a waste of money.

 

In the first place, all that Heet is, is Isopropal Alchohol. You could go to walmart and buy a quart of it for about the same price as a pint of heet. Add one or two cap fulls to a tank would be just as effective as a bottle of heet.

 

Secondly, You should not need any heet/alcohol in your fuel. The refineries have already included it in your fuel. The winter blended fuel is so full of additives, that it effects mileage. If you buy your fuel from a high volume station. You should never have a problem with water in your fuel.

[potter2010]

Just dont forget to unplug/remove it before leaving...

 

Yes, remember. This is why my extension cord has a replacement plug on the end!

[Ravenwoods]

Plugging in your block heater and oil pan heater all night is totally unnecessary. The electric company says that in extreme cold weather such as 50 below, that plugging in for more than four hours is wasteful. Usually 2 hours is plenty. You can get a timer to set so that the extension cord is energized at a certain time. Also there are kits you can install on your car that turns the block heater and oil pan heater off once the block has achieved a certain temperature. 

 

As far as sludge forming because of an oil pan heater, that is nonsense. Every car in Fairbanks has one. I change my own oil all the time and no sludge every comes out. The oil pan heater would need to get hot enough to burn the oil to create sludge and that just is not the case.

[Ravenwoods]

Heet can be useful if you  live in a warm wet  area like Seattle and you travel over to a colder place such as over the Cascade mountains to Eastern Washington where it can get colder at night. Sometimes moisture in your fuel can cause problems and putting in a can of heet before you drive over can help. 

[crazyman03]

When you spring for a new battery, look into the biggest you can get that'll fit (usually around the same price). The CCA will be higher so when the cold does decide to suck the life out of your battery, you'll have a bit more to go through before completely dead. That, and it never hurts to have a little more juice under the hood for other accessories.

 

 

My first assumption is the battery, as it's about 4 years old. It's probably not sending enough current to start the engine. But wouldn't all the electrical components die after attempting to start the car?

yes and no. Starters take a LOT more juice to crank than the electronics in the car. Most (newerish) cars, actually have a relay that kicks off accessories during start so that the starter has the most amperes available to it. Some starters use anywhere from 100+ amps to actuate the solenoid and spin the motor, doesn't sound like a whole lot but for every second its cranking its drawing that life out of the battery. 

 

-Justin

[Ravenwoods]

Whenever I get a replacement battery, I don't go for the biggest or most expensive. I just go for the middle of the road battery. If you plug your car in and have an oil pan heater, your engine will spin over very nicely. Also with the warm oil, it cuts down on engine wear very much. Just a couple weeks ago we went to Chena Hot Springs resort for the night. They are not connected to an electrical grid and so have to produce their own electricity through geothermal processes. So they only have a limited number of places for cars to plug in. When we got there we could not get parked in a spot where we could plug in. I just replaced our battery last August as it was about five years old and showing signs of not being as strong as it used to be. The temperature was about -25 F and the next morning early I went out to see if there were any empty parking spots so I could move my 1998 Forester (215,000 miles) to a place where I could plug it in. The car had been sitting overnight for about 14 hours and the engine and oil were totally cold. I just barely got the car started. I moved the car and plugged it in. Six or seven hours later when it was time to checkout of our room, the car started as if it was summertime. This is how dramatically effective a block heater and oil pan heater are. This really does reduce wear and tear on your engine.

[potter2010]

I'll have to look into an oil pan heater. The ones I've seen just stick to the oil pan, either by magnets or some adhesive I'm guessing. I never really paid much attention. Is this sufficent or should I put a little something extra on there to keep it on as I'd rather not attached and remove it every day as someone above had mentioned.

Also, the plugs at our building cycle on and off every 15 minutes (and we don't pay for electricity, though that's a bad excuse) so I hadn't ever looked into a timer. Would it be better for the car to cycle all night or cycle just for a couple hours in the morning? Temperatures here are right around -40c right now but can easily stay at -50c.

[Ravenwoods]

I'll have to look into an oil pan heater. The ones I've seen just stick to the oil pan, either by magnets or some adhesive I'm guessing. I never really paid much attention. Is this sufficent or should I put a little something extra on there to keep it on as I'd rather not attached and remove it every day as someone above had mentioned.

 

Also, the plugs at our building cycle on and off every 15 minutes (and we don't pay for electricity, though that's a bad excuse) so I hadn't ever looked into a timer. Would it be better for the car to cycle all night or cycle just for a couple hours in the morning? Temperatures here are right around -40c right now but can easily stay at -50c.

The oil pan heaters we have here in Fairbanks, Alaska are a thin sheet of rubber with heating elements embedded in it. A cord comes out of that. You just get some high temperature silicone sealant from the car parts store and clean off the bottom of your oil pan real good with some degreaser. Glue it on and they last forever. I've never had one go bad. That is best way to handle it.

 

If you have -40 right now and the power cycles on and off every fifteen minutes, I'd just plug it in before you go to bed. That would mean it would be on four hours and that is just about right at that temperature. 

 

Here is a link at amazon to a 50 watt heater:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Kats-24050-Watt-Universal-Heater/dp/B000I8YPQ4/ref=sr_1_6?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1387772661&sr=1-6&keywords=oil+pan+heaters

 

I don't remember what wattage I have on my vehicles, but 50 watt sounds about right. You can get much more powerful ones for large vehicles such as a big kenworth.