SubaRulz-NrthJerZ Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I bought '02 Forester L in July(2013),off a close friends mother.Original owner.Garage kept for 9 years.Impecable service records.179k miles on it.All recommended interval maintenance performed as suggested.It was VERY well maintained.Had intermittent external Head Gasket leak.Took it to mechanic(@182K),which had been serciving vehicle for years and diagnosed leak prior to my acquiring car.Changed head gaskets,timing assembly,water pump and sent heads to be cleaned and spec'd.They refaced valves,repaired guides,installed new valve seals and cam seals.I was told two valves were dropping out of spec.The week I got it back,I noticed that it didn't seem to have the same 'zip' that it did.Especially under load.Going up hills.Calculated mpg week two at 16.7.Down from the 24 mpg it was getting before surgery.Due to circumstances with new job and harsh winter weather.Which the AWD was a must have for.I didn't bring it in right away.It never gave me any reason to be concerned about a major issue.No knocking,or tapping or surging.Just lower feul economy and what seemed to me as less pep.Well 1500 miles later.After racking up a whopping 41 miles a day commuting.It started losing power on a light incline,while in Cruise control at 68mph.Within a minute of noticing how the car wasn't maintaining Cruise speed.It shifted down twice and rev'd the rpm's up.That's when the tapping started.Then upon canceling Cruise and removing throttle input.The tapping became more like clattering.Pulled right over and called AAA.The same mechanic now tells me it threw a rod.???When he told me,after asking how the bottom end looked when he had it apart,that it was in great condition,That the cylinder heads were very clean.He could still see the cross hatch marks on the cylinder tops.He even said he inspected the Main Seal and it looked good.Sorry this post is a like a 'Short Story' but this is my first Subaru.Not the typical overhead cam that i've always owned.It seems a little odd to me that the bottom end,per say,went right after he told me how clean and good it looked.I pulled the dipstick after it shut off coming to a stop on the side of the highway.The oil appeared normal in color,but had a fuel like smell to it.Any one have any advice on this?He is taking the approach that this is the 'Luck of the draw' type thing.Said he was sorry that this happened to me and he'd make some calls to see what he could come up with for some options to replace/repair my motor.The bill came to $2,620.00! At 184K miles.Something doesn't add up to me.Any suggestions on what I should be asking this mechanic?What problems with the valves could cause the motor to blow a rod,if any?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) Why does the oil smell like fuel? Why did my car have less power after you worked on it? Maybe he got the T belt on wrong, Worth a look. Not unusual to lose a rod after repairing an internal head gasket leak. External,not so much. He would not have seen the bottom end w/doing head gaskets. Rod failed because oil was fuel thinned for some reason. Edited January 23, 2014 by naru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 fuel smell and 16 mpg sounds fairly conclusive that it was dumping too much fuel. fuel thins out the oil and doesn't lubricate the bearings. the bad fuel mileage suggests: 1. something was compromised when the job was done 2. a symptom of engine issues was ignored for 1,500 miles #2 would be more culpable for the rod bearing failure unfortunately. www.car-part.com for used engines or JDM Depot has good prices on JDM motors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubaRulz-NrthJerZ Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Firstly.Thank you both for your replies.The initial problem was an extrnl hg leak.Not quite an eighth" gap on the drvrside rear cylindr.He showed me the old parts,which was a nice suprise.He totally seems like an honest guy.I don't doubt his craftsmenship in his trade.I am absolutely guilty of procrastination whith having the symptoms addressed.Set aside my neglect and I ask this.The noticed loss in mpg and the lack of "zip" in the upper rpm range.Could that have anything to do with the valve work the machine shop did?The receipt says,"clean and reface valves,repair guides,install new valve seals and cam seals,clean check and tech two cylndr heads." It didn't seem out of time to me.I have previous exp with that.Idled good.Started good.Shut off smooth.Really just the inclines and when you had to get on it alittle.I could use your third party,uninfluenced opinions:) Do I have a leg here?How do I prove that the two shops work was not the "initial" cause of the problem?Is it resonable for me to feel that they should meet me half way with the repairs/replacement of a motor?Thanks again,really.Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 any check engine light? i would expect a poor knock sensor to cause the poor performance. an oil analysis might help shed light on things. companies do UOA all the time and should be well versed at helping you analyze the results - type of material, how much, damage, how long it's been happening, what may have been the cause, etc. copy, point taken that it was performing poorly from the start. the work they did shouldn't cause any issues regarding the bottom end but obviously it's fairly invasive so a lot of things can happen. vaccuum leaks, valves out of adjustment (it would have to be really bad) or timing could cause poor performance. i'm uncertain of oil supply routing but if the oil supply lines were clogged that could starve the engine of oil and compromise rod bearings - but i wouldn't expect poor performance outside of catastrophic damage. there was a case, someone posted pictures on a subaru forum a year or three ago, of a mechanic leaving a rag inside the engine if you can believe that. or over-zealous RTV/sealant that clogs and oil port, that has happened before too. but i wouldn't expect performance issues due to that. and i'm not sure how oil supply is routed - if the rods get oil from the crank/oil pump and not from the heads then it would be a stretch to say the rod bearings were starved by anything that happened during head replacement. keep in mind - they would still be suspicious of someone that swears up and down that it was performing poorly the whole time before it blew up and you just didn't come back and ask. they couldn't say it because it would make most customers angry but they would be thinking "it must have not been performing that bad, you didn't say anything about it before after a huge repair bill you certainly would have felt undeserving of poor service if it was......until you needed $3,000 worth of work then all of a sudden it was really bad the entire time you were driving it." this is going to be a hard one to figure out and basically up in the air for you two to resolve, you have a leg to stand on and so do they, but in a court of law i see little proof yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubaRulz-NrthJerZ Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 No check engine light.I replaced the knock sensor in Sept. along with the battery,alternator,plugs and wires.I even unfastened the grounds around the engine compartment,wire brushed the connection points and applied an electrical anti-oxidant coating to them.Just an example of how I maintain my vehicles.This Forester should have seen 250k.The service/maintenance records for this car are almost as thick as the Chilton manual.I'd say 60% of them are from the mechanic I took it to.He knows the car was in tip top shape.He serviced it for years on a routine basis.Garage kept at home,parking garage at work till 2011.It's VERY clean.Everything works without flaw.Even the pull out cup holders are in mint shape! LOL.Had a guy ask me one morning at the deli,if I'd sell them.I'm beating myself over the head for not getting it back into the shop when I noticed the fuel economy drop and the dip in top end power.At the same time,I can't help but think that I'm not deserving of eating the whole cost of a motor swap or rebuild.There's a link between the work that was done and the "blown rod",as I'm being told anyway.As luck would have it,the owner of the shop who did the work on my car,has double pneumonia and I can't seem to get a return call.Any opinions on whether I should force the issue.I've been told by a few different qualified people that I should have an oil analysis done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivans imports Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Clasic get this weekly it threw a rod right after the heads were done Two reasons one poor cleaning job or orbital grinders used for cleaning. Also if was running with bad HG the coolant was finding its way into oil witch the pcv can remove the moisture but addatives and sugars are left in the oil ruining bottom end bearings. A oil presshure test should have been done prior to removing engine { MIN 10 PSI HOT AT IDLE ] if not bearing time. people assume that because they are going to get the heads done soon they do not have to change oil BIG MISTAKE antifreeze in oil will ruin engine and you will never see it coming. And will never have milky oil or any warning signs just wipeout bearings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I 2nd what Naru said. If you had a loss of power after work done, I would suspect timing was off. If timing was off its possible for fuel delivery problems. Check timing belts etc before disassembly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivans imports Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Also some engines came with 7mm oil pump was to small and had hard time keeping up check oil pump stamp for size came with 7mm 9mm and 10 mm pumps see the most bottom end problems with the 7mm one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubaRulz-NrthJerZ Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 it was an external hg leak.Saw the old gasket.Mechanic told me the cylinders tops were so clean that he could still see the cross hatching on them.He was pleased with how clean it looked.I also wanted to mention that I happen to be outside when i activated the auto start and it failed to engage on the first attempt.Never noticed that before the work was done.That sways me toward a timing problem.Is it possible that the timing could be off so slightly that I wouldn't notice it on flat ground?But be enough to cause a rod/and or bearing to go in the bottom end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubaRulz-NrthJerZ Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 Can anyone recommend somewhere to purchase a re-manufactured motor with a warranty?Also,any idea what labor costs I could expect for a swap out?Thanks again for taking the time to help me with this.It's greatly appreciated! The rest of the car is in REALLY nice shape.NO rust at all.Brand new tires,brake system and total exhaust system a year and a half ago.Brand new alternator.I also have new struts,bushing set,tie rod ends and links waiting to go in.My only concern would be the Trans.How many miles do the Subaru trans typically make it to before problems.This one has been serviced several times over the last 10 yrs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I had a 2000 2.2l throw a rod 2k miles after I changed the oil. It was still full minus what had sprayed out the hole in the top of the block. I felt bad, but sometimes these things do just happen. Its very rare for the EJ series engines to throw a rod, usually they just spin bearings. Unless it dropped a valve and that caused the rod to break or a rag was left in the engine and it blocked the oil pickup, I don't see how it could have been the mechanics fault. These guys have a good reputation: http://www.ccrengines.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cz777 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Clasic get this weekly it threw a rod right after the heads were done Two reasons one poor cleaning job or orbital grinders used for cleaning. Also if was running with bad HG the coolant was finding its way into oil witch the pcv can remove the moisture but addatives and sugars are left in the oil ruining bottom end bearings. A oil presshure test should have been done prior to removing engine { MIN 10 PSI HOT AT IDLE ] if not bearing time. people assume that because they are going to get the heads done soon they do not have to change oil BIG MISTAKE antifreeze in oil will ruin engine and you will never see it coming. And will never have milky oil or any warning signs just wipeout bearings. back in the stone ages ,FORD banned the use of orbital grinders ...we learned why talk of abrasive bits /dust getting in the oil passages and other areas ...nice new clean job but within seconds over 200,000 mile of filings done .....no one needs them for clean up .....try as you will try no way to get all crap out ........i have pulled many of oil pumps down with super fine and deep grooves in the gears because of them .........a super sin !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivans imports Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 At least 50 ejs killed by orbitals in one year The local Subaru dealers use them carnage ! one ruined engine after the other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Can anyone recommend somewhere to purchase a re-manufactured motor with a warranty?Also,any idea what labor costs I could expect for a swap out?Thanks again for taking the time to help me with this.It's greatly appreciated! The rest of the car is in REALLY nice shape.NO rust at all.Brand new tires,brake system and total exhaust system a year and a half ago.Brand new alternator.I also have new struts,bushing set,tie rod ends and links waiting to go in.My only concern would be the Trans.How many miles do the Subaru trans typically make it to before problems.This one has been serviced several times over the last 10 yrs. CCR for rebuilt used: www.car-part.com JDM depot for used engines transmissions are robust. frankly i'm beginning to think auto's are less maintenance and more robust now days. just depends. driven gently and maintained well the manuals easily exceed 200,000 miles. otherwise they can have input shaft bearing, synchro, and clutch issues of course. auto's easily make 200,000+ miles with little more than fluid changes. rotate tires frequently to protect center differential (manual) or rear transfer bits (auto). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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