engine died, does this lower cost replacement sound legit?

[curls1]

Hi!  My 98 subaru died in the middle of a 6 hour trip.  I posted to a justy forum & they sent me here, saying many of the legacy owners hang out here!  After research and being told the replacements often run over $1000, I found several in the $600 range.  Can anyone with experience, tell me if this is a flag of "too good to be true"?

 

Off car-parts.com, I found 2.5l replacement with 102k, tested with 90 warrentee (part only, not on install labor) in Newark NJ.  For $650 delivered.  I can't find reviews for the place "Best Metal Used Auto Parts" but called car-parts.  They said BM had been selling on their site since 2010 and they'd had no complaints about them.

 

The mechanic that has the car will install for $800-900.  I figure a few $100 more for timing belt, and miscellaneous.  So $1800 all together, around.

 

Before I go down that road, since I'd have to pay labor whether the engine is good or not -- any help would be great!!

 

Thank you so much!

 

----

 

The death was with sudden loss of 3 1/2 quarts of oil.  It'd be needing the usual 1 quart every two tanks full, and been getting worse lately.  A week and half before the trip, I'd topped up.  So maybe 600, and no more than 1000 miles, it lost 3 1/2 quarts.  Last oil change was probably 6 months ago, so that wasn't the cause.  Oil light never went on that I noticed. 

 

Car otherwise is in decent shape.  Needs brakes. If I can get it done for $2000 and not have to shop right now... it's well worth it. 

Edited January 27, 2014 by curls1

[idosubaru]

no - get a 1995 EJ22 from an automatic - legacy or impreza, doesn't matter.

the engines are much cheaper, more reliable.

 

15 miles from Newark, 718-497-3900  has two from legacy's for $250 but doesn't say auto or manual

 

a bunch more listed on car-part.com only a few miles from Newark for $375 and $400 all day long.  call and find one that's from an automatic.

 

888-855-7278 65 miles away with one from an Impreza for $300 and it's an automatic.

 

save a few hundred dollars and more reliable and not an interference engine...way better in every regard.

 

you want to replace the timing belt and pulleys (and tensioner on the EJ25).  i'd also replace the cam seals, cam orings (if equipped), crank seal, and rear separator plate with the metal variety while the engine is out.

 

1995 EJ22 timing belt kit:
http://www.amazon.com/Gates-TCK254-Timing-Belt-Component/dp/B000C2ULA0/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1390860179&sr=8-11&keywords=Subaru+timing+kit

 

EJ25 timing belt kit:

http://www.amazon.com/Gates-TCK304-Timing-Belt-Component/dp/B002R8HMAY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390860179&sr=8-1&keywords=Subaru+timing+kit

 

technically a manual transmission will work you just have to move a vacuum line to get rid of the check engine light since those don't have EGR.

 

 

**** a used EJ25D is a headgasket risk.

Edited January 27, 2014 by grossgary

[Rooster2]

+1 on installing a 2.2 motor. That is what I did on my 98 OBW to replace the 2.5 motor. Mine came out of a 95 Subie, so it was a direct replacement , plug and play. 2 years ago, I paid $400 inc. tax, out the door. I was told there was about 154K on the donor's car odo. Wrecking yard will often deliver the motor to your mechanic's shop for installation. The transplant has worked really well. I got a sweet running 2.2, in my car. Other year Subie 2.2 motors will work as well, but need to swap the exhaust header pipe to make it work. I had a new timing belt kit installed at the time of transplant.

 

Lots written on this forum about swapping in a 2.2 motor. Just use "search" on the forum to check the archives.

 

Let us know how you come out. We are here to help with advise.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Rooster2

[curls1]

Okay, I'm thoroughly confused.  The Justy forum also suggested using a 2.2l.  Yet when I called salvage years every single one said it can't be done.  One listed all sort of stuff that's not compatable such as computer, transmission including torque converter, and I lost track.  Also several called the 2.5l, the "good engine."  The 2.2l they seemed to think has lots of problems (oil leaks, head gasket).

 

I must be missing something obvious here.  I've never heard the terms EJ22 or EJ25 or EJ25D - I can guess 2.2l, 2.5l, D is for DOHC, which I think my car is DOHC?   Mine is a 98 Legacy with a "6" in the engine vin spot.  Apparently these legacy '98 engines were made for only 1/2 a year then switched to something else.  So does mine have an engine that can't be swapped for the EJ22?

 

Also this 2.5l that I found for $650 is the same as my car, but I was told they're usually over $1000.  Is this a flag?  For $300 more than the EJ22, I might go for it, just because it is tested and warenteed (though not for labor).

 

----

 

Non-interference sounds great...

"i'd also replace the cam seals, cam orings (if equipped), crank seal, and rear separator plate with the metal variety while the engine is out."

How expensive would that be when not yet installed?  The parts aren't very expensive from what I saw I think.  It is much labor to do this?

 

Thanks so much for all the details.  I'll call them tomorrow.

Edited January 28, 2014 by curls1

[Rooster2]

2.2 motors for 1995-1999, I think are the ones to look for. They are compatible from a computer and transmission stand point. The 2.2 from 1990-1994 use a different computer system that is not compatible. Others here can tell you more precisely then I can. Trust us.........the main point is that ...............you can transplant a 2.2 to replace a 2.5 motor.  The wrecking yard guys are just not aware of this.

[curls1]

Thanks Rooster!

 

Everyone I talked to today was just so adamate that I couldn't replace the 2.5 with the 2.2's.  I've been searching this forum, and my basic questions are:

 

1) What engines will plug & play into a 98 Legacy "6" vin, 2.5?  Is it possible mine has a 1/2 year special 2.5 that's not swappable, like the mechanic & salvage are saying?  It's an EJ25D (in owner's manual), & 2.5L H4 PFI DOHC 16V (on carfax).

 

2) Any adjustments needed?  The shop doesn't want to have to change harnesses, etc..  (I've seen that sometimes you need manifolds, & 2.2. must be with EGR.)

 

3) Are the "cam seals, cam orings (if equipped), crank seal, and rear separator plate" expensive to swap while engine is still out of car?

 

4) How can I judge if I'm getting an good enough engine to make the labor to install worthwhile?

 

 

Thank you so much.  And it'd just be so nice if I can get this repaired rather than having it cost so much, I have to salvage it.  I'm dealing with injuries from something, so car shopping is just too much right now.

Edited January 28, 2014 by curls1

[curls1]

I found this engine info on another forum.  It seems good:

 

ej22 replacements in order of preference for replacing ej25d.

95 w/ EGR usually from a an auto trans car. plug and play no issues.
96 w/ EGR usually from a an auto trans car. you will need the exhaust y-pipe .
97 - 98 w/ EGR usually from a an auto trans car. you will need the exhaust y-pipe.
the only difference between the 96 and the 97 is that the 96 is still a non-interference engine. 97 - 98 are not.

 

So that would seem to answer most of my questions.  Is it accurate?  But then why am I getting told I can't put a ej22 into my ej25d because it's part of the '98 year model?

[nipper]

For the record i am the one that sent you over from the Justy Forum, i am glad you found us. Subarus tend to be giant Lego's A lot of parts are all interchangeable.

[curls1]

Hi Ripper - thanks for sending me here!  I'm going to call the dealer and ask what's exchangeable on this year's engine....

[nipper]

Dealer wont know unless he is a car guy. Junk yards wont kow either as they want to sell you what you had, especially if it is harder to find (more expensive). Quite a few people have droped in 2.2's where a 2.5 once lived, it's common to do.

[curls1]

Dealer wont know unless he is a car guy. Junk yards wont kow either as they want to sell you what you had, especially if it is harder to find (more expensive). Quite a few people have droped in 2.2's where a 2.5 once lived, it's common to do.

 

Sorry, hi nipper, not ripper!

 

I just talked with the manager or the Subaru dealer repair dept..  He tells me the 1998 2.5D is DOHC, but all the 2.2's are SOHC.  So swapping can't be done easily because they use different harnesses, & computers and so on. 

 

Are you saying that people you've met online have switched the '98 2.5 DOHC (not the 2.5i that came later) for a 2.2. SOHCs (years 95-99)?  And that it's practically plug and play if you get an automatic so it has the EGR? 

 

I've never seen anything like this, where people are doing something the major often, but the dealer and salvage yards and several mechanics I'd asked are all saying it's not possible.

[MilesFox]

any 95-98 2.2 and 2.5 will plug and play, with the only exception to whether the engine has an egr vave or not, but will still plug anfd play, save for a check engine lite for the EGR

 

Bellhousing and motor mounts fit the same.

 

use the 2.5 torque converter and flex plate on the 2.2 so it matches your trans.

 

any 1990-98 2.2 engine will work, as long as you have an obd2 95-98 2.2 intake.

 

a 2.5 intake harness will swap over to any 90-98 2.2 intake manifold.

 

you must use a 2.2 intake manifold as a 2.5 does not bolt onto the 2.2

 

for example, my 98 forester has a block from a 97 outback(2.5) with 2.2 heads and intake form a 95 2.2. 

[idosubaru]

everything you need to know is in the first reply i posted in this thread.  i suggested a 95 automatic EJ22 because of the situation - away from home and traveling.  you do have other options.  this posting looks almost exactly like some of my writing, but nonethess yes you can use these EJ22's:

 

I found this engine info on another forum.  It seems good:

 

ej22 replacements in order of preference for replacing ej25d.

95 w/ EGR usually from a an auto trans car. plug and play no issues.
96 w/ EGR usually from a an auto trans car. you will need the exhaust y-pipe .
97 - 98 w/ EGR usually from a an auto trans car. you will need the exhaust y-pipe.
the only difference between the 96 and the 97 is that the 96 is still a non-interference engine. 97 - 98 are not.

 

So that would seem to answer most of my questions.  Is it accurate?  But then why am I getting told I can't put a ej22 into my ej25d because it's part of the '98 year model?

 

yes it's accurate with these notes:

1.  95 automatics always have EGR and dual port exhaust so they are the easiest swap.

2.  you can use an EJ22 without EGR with a simple vacuum hose swappage. very easy, there's a thread on this forum about it. ;

3.  96+ have single port exhaust and many places wont' sell the exhaust...so that's why i didn't recommend it for your situation.

 

 

But then why am I getting told I can't put a ej22 into my ej25d

 

*** because you're confusing yourself by asking people that ***have never even tried it before***  LOL.   don't listen to people with zero experience, that's not a good way to get the most accurate information.

 

you will not get any more Subaru specific experience than on this forum, i will walk and talk circles around any Subaru technician or junk yard guy.  I do swaps and interchange parts they can't even dream of doing - they have no idea what interchanges because they only swap what a computer tells them to swap. you have a choice here:

A.  listen to people that have done this gobs of times and know what they're talking about (me, Miles, etc).

B. listen to someone that's never even attempted it before and regurgitates what's on a computer screen

 

I suggest going with option A.

 

*** When I buy an engine i tell THEM what i want, i don't ask.  don't ask them for swap information, they don't know crap.  they sell engines...from all sorts of years, makes, models, and just regurgitate what a computer tells them.  all the stuff about wiring and computers is just apocalpytic talk from someone reading a computer screen - they have no clue.

 

if you pick the right EJ22 it's a bolt in and plug and play affair, it's exactly like installing another EJ25.

 

3. re-read the quoted portion that you copied/pasted from somewhere else i wrote - that tells you exactly what you need to know.

 

4.  re-read my first reply to this thread - i listed engines available right now.   you have no work to do - i already did it for you.

 

EJ25 and EJ25D is the same thing for this discussion.  EJ25D is the EJ25 variation used in your vehicle.  yes - DOHC engine. 

 

Google or search Subaru forums for EJ25 headgasket - there are threats of lawsuits, entire websites and forums dedicated to the EJ25 headgasket issue.  if someone doesn't know about it then you can pretty much ignore everything else they say because they don't know anything about Subarus if they don't know that.  no way i'd want a used EJ25D and their headgasket debacles - again don't listen to me or anyone else do a subaru forum or google search and you'll see how prevalent it is.  the EJ25D is the most ominious of all the EJ25's as well, making it even less desirable.

 

the EJ22 is one of the best engines Subaru has ever made, very robust and they run forever.  replace seals and timing belts and you're golden. 

 

the rear separator is the one item that must be done with the engine out of the vehicle, so i'd say that's the only required item to replace right now.  EJ22 timing belts and seals are really easy to do in the car so not a big deal.  i'd rather do it when the motor is out but it's not a big deal and can be done in an hour or two once the engine is in the car.  but shops charge $40o - $700 for timing belt jobs so it can be pricey too - nice to wrap it up now if possible and you're paying someone else to do the labor.

[curls1]

everything you need to know is in the first reply i posted in this thread.  i suggested a 95 automatic EJ22 because of the situation - away from home and traveling.  you do have other options.  this posting looks almost exactly like some of my writing, but nonethess yes you can use these EJ22's:

 

 

yes it's accurate with these notes:

1.  95 automatics always have EGR and dual port exhaust so they are the easiest swap.

2.  you can use an EJ22 without EGR with a simple vacuum hose swappage. very easy, there's a thread on this forum about it. ;

3.  96+ have single port exhaust and many places wont' sell the exhaust...so that's why i didn't recommend it for your situation.

 

 

 

*** because you're confusing yourself by asking people that ***have never even tried it before***  LOL.   don't listen to people with zero experience, that's not a good way to get the most accurate information.

 

you will not get any more Subaru specific experience than on this forum, i will walk and talk circles around any Subaru technician or junk yard guy.  I do swaps and interchange parts they can't even dream of doing - they have no idea what interchanges because they only swap what a computer tells them to swap. you have a choice here:

A.  listen to people that have done this gobs of times and know what they're talking about (me, Miles, etc).

B. listen to someone that's never even attempted it before and regurgitates what's on a computer screen

 

I suggest going with option A.

 

*** When I buy an engine i tell THEM what i want, i don't ask.  don't ask them for swap information, they don't know crap.  they sell engines...from all sorts of years, makes, models, and just regurgitate what a computer tells them.  all the stuff about wiring and computers is just apocalpytic talk from someone reading a computer screen - they have no clue.

 

if you pick the right EJ22 it's a bolt in and plug and play affair, it's exactly like installing another EJ25.

 

3. re-read the quoted portion that you copied/pasted from somewhere else i wrote - that tells you exactly what you need to know.

 

4.  re-read my first reply to this thread - i listed engines available right now.   you have no work to do - i already did it for you.

 

EJ25 and EJ25D is the same thing for this discussion.  EJ25D is the EJ25 variation used in your vehicle.  yes - DOHC engine. 

 

Google or search Subaru forums for EJ25 headgasket - there are threats of lawsuits, entire websites and forums dedicated to the EJ25 headgasket issue.  if someone doesn't know about it then you can pretty much ignore everything else they say because they don't know anything about Subarus if they don't know that.  no way i'd want a used EJ25D and their headgasket debacles - again don't listen to me or anyone else do a subaru forum or google search and you'll see how prevalent it is.  the EJ25D is the most ominious of all the EJ25's as well, making it even less desirable.

 

the EJ22 is one of the best engines Subaru has ever made, very robust and they run forever.  replace seals and timing belts and you're golden. 

 

the rear separator is the one item that must be done with the engine out of the vehicle, so i'd say that's the only required item to replace right now.  EJ22 timing belts and seals are really easy to do in the car so not a big deal.  i'd rather do it when the motor is out but it's not a big deal and can be done in an hour or two once the engine is in the car.  but shops charge $40o - $700 for timing belt jobs so it can be pricey too - nice to wrap it up now if possible and you're paying someone else to do the labor.

 

 

Aaaah, thank you.

 

I've generally found mechanics, and salvage yards useful... so this is new to me with them being so clueless.  But yes, I'll go with the incredible number of times this has been done & commented about & your experience... over their by the book comments.

 

You're laid out what needs to be done, and what works, very clearly.  That helps a lot.  I'm going to wait till my dad is finally reachable tomorrow (it's his car), & decide what to do.  I may have questions then on details to get it all lined up.

 

Now a big question.  Any chance anyone here knows someone in Clinton NJ or anywhere from there to Mid-Hudson valley (Kingston) NY -- who can do this job for me?

 

The car is in Clinton.  I'm in Kingston.  I can uhaul it to someone along the way.  Then go back & get it when done.  I have a couple mechanics in Kingston I've liked in the past for complex diagnositics and jobs well done.  I need to call again specifically about doing the 2.2 swap.  No one's suggested it and all talk about engines costing at least $1000.  I feel like I'm in a twightzone.

 

 

It's been completely weird hearing salvage yards say 2.5D, oh that's the good engine.  It's obviously the troubled one after a small amount of forum reading from the beginning.  I guess their trying to sell their dud, but I'm not used to so much snookering.  And local mechanic saying "oh that engine usually lasts longer, huh?"  Also odd that the mechanic in Clinton with years of experience doesn't seem to know they swap or much of anything about the 2.5D.

 

Okay, so now I'm close to good to go.  Just have to put the pieces together (mechanic, engine, exhaust, father's reaction then decision).

 

One more big concern -- if the check engine light comes on, it won't pass emissions where I live.  Is there any way around that?  Seems like if I use one with EGR already, then it will hook in alright?

 

Thank you, thank you....Grossgary, and MilesFox...!!

[nipper]

You can basically trust the information these guys are giving you here. Dealers dont want you to fix your car unless they can charge you through the nose for it. Also they may be limited by law what they can tell you since it involves emissions that they arent allowed to modify.

[cmmc]

Hi, These guys helped me to do that same swap (2.5 to 2.2) and it made a new car out of it.  Their info is good and the swap should be able to be handled by and good mechanic.  thanks again guys

[idosubaru]

lots of questions, i'll try to address them.

 

#1 THERE IS NO CHECK ENGINE LIGHT if you get an EJ22 with EGR.

 

you can get one without EGR and swap the vacuum hoses, there's a post on here on how to do it - very easy.  but no matter - if that scares you then reread #1 above.

 

if you get a 1995 EJ22 there is nothing to do different than an EJ25 replacement.  if someone will swap an EJ25 this is the same job.  i just put together a 1995 EJ22 (timing  kit, water pump, rear separator, reseal oil pump, plugs, etc) for a friend to have his mechanic swap into his 1998 OBW EJ25 which blew headgaskets...same exact thing you're dealing with.  his mechanic had no experience doing this so i gave him my infomrmation - but never contacted me with questions because it's easy.

 

this is why i recommended to get a 1995 automatic EJ22 - distance, uncertainy of mechanics, etc.  simple is good. 

other EJ22's are easy to swap too - with the points noted.

 

i wouldn't "fault" the mechanics or junkyard guys for not knowing, they're not being shady or untrustworthy, they're just speaking about what they know not.  they're accustomed to hearing all sorts of non-mechanically inclined questions on the phone from desparate people and probably lumped you in with them and they assume they know more than they actually do.  junkyards do decades worth of every make, model, vehicle made. they can't possibly get into all the nuances and tricks of one specific platform, that would be an inordinate amount of information to handle.  also the guys answering phones and the guys pulling parts are often not one in the same so the phone guys may have no hands on experience just how similar the engines are - on paper they do appear a lot different and many manufacturers engines and with more complicating electrnoics, can be vastly different when talking different sizes.

 

as to the EJ25 being "the good motor" - that can be true and not true.  it is more power and in todays world, that sells.  it is nearly unheard of for consumers to buy a "reliable" engine.  they want new, faster, better, etc.  i mean consumers say they want reliability but they really don't have enough technical leverage or experience for companies to take them seriously so the market isn't driven by it very much.  anyway, the EJ25 is the "good motor" in that:

1. more power

2. it came in all the higher end vehicles - outback, leather, Impreza RS model, etc...

3. those higher end vehicles are owned by people with more money, have fewer owners, are more well taken care of (large sample size), and tend to stick around longer.  lower end vehicles get trashed, used as beaters, poorly maintained and aren't worth as much due to them being lower end models so they're sent to the junk/scrap yard quicker - so to a junk yard they look like worse motors in some ways.

 

so it seems like the "better" motor.

 

in terms of reliability, the EJ22 is one of Subaru's best motors they've ever made and the EJ25D is Subaru's worst motor they've ever made....or at least since the 1970's, i don't have experience beyond that. 

 

don't run them low on oil or run them hot and an EJ22 easily see 300,000+ inexpensive miles or however long you care to keep doing easy maintenance on the vehicle.

Edited January 28, 2014 by grossgary

[Rooster2]

My testimonial...........when I had a 2.2 from a 1995 transplanted into my 1998 with a 2.5, my trusted mechanic had never heard of doing this. He has spent a life time as a mechanic, owning his own shop, specializing in working on foreign cars. I delivered the 2.2 motor to his shop, and said "put this motor in, it will be fit, and be "plug and play.".............and so he did it, with no issues, except maybe a bracket needed to be moved from the 2.5 to the 2.2 to mount the A/C compressor.

 

On my return to pick up the car, he was installing in a customer's car a 2.2 in a 1997 OBW that had a bad 2.5. I think my mechanic learned a thing or two.

[wavekayaker]

Curls, What these guys are telling you is spot on correct. I swapped in a 95 EJ22 in place of a blown 99 EJ25D. It was complete plu and play. The three main engine disconnects from the EJ22 manifold plugged right into my 99 Outback. The computer doesn't know the differance. I got an 85,000 mile engine for $450.

[curls1]

Wavekayaker - I found a 95 2.2 with 100k and shop to do it.  Now it's finger crossing that they have success, and with all the snow, it gets done.  Thanks for the reassurance.  Once I knew this from you all online, it was easier to find a shop to do the job.

[idosubaru]

i've been talking to the OP via phone and looks like they are moving right along on sourcing parts/shops.  should be a success story and they can move on with life and take the least hit possible.

[curls1]

Hi!!

 

I posted an update to another thread on this forum.  So I'll post a link to it, rather than repeat it here.

 

Thanks you to everyone!!

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/144005-anyone-want-to-install-a-22-in-a-98-or-know-a-shop-who-will/page-2