Lifter tick won't go away?

[Subinoobi]

So I just did a top end rebuild on my EA82, sent the lifters to Mizpah, brand new oil pump and seals, and I still seem to have a tick. Now I didn't have one before the rebuild, I did it due to a bad head gasket. Now it's really loud. I've driven it about 20 miles, probably 45 minutes of run time. The one thing I messed up on was that I didn't go to the dealership for the genuine cam tower o rings, but I would think that a regular o ring wouldn't cause this until later down the road. From what I've been reading, people say these will be loud for a bit after rebuild and that I should take her for a nice long ride. So should I be worried? From my understanding, the tick won't cause any damage it's just very irritating. 

[jono]

I have only just done same to my EA82M - installed Mizpahs reco lifters. If you read comments at same time I did, they were of good quality, thought to get more attention in their process compared to new lifters.

 

Mine sat sideways for four years in the engine until fitted last few weeks, so if I had bled/primed them on instal, likely have drained out in that time. I started her up and got the slight TOD until warmed up - running Valvoline fully mineral 15W40 on a day of 38C - this may have been an advantage!

 

I have previously fitted new HVLA's and needed good 25 to 30km driving at slower suburban speeds, stop start stuff to load the HVLA's up a little.

 

I am happy with the quiet result compared to EA81 with tappets not reset at least 130,000km

THUMBS UP for MIZPAH !

Edited February 3, 2014 by jono

[stratman977]

I would bet you have a clogged oil passage and one side is not oiling. I had really loud lifters after tearing mine down and found a piece of rtv stuck where the cam tower o ring is.

 

My tick didn't start right away though and I think its because it took a mile or two for the assembly grease to wear off.

Edited February 3, 2014 by stratman977

[scoobiedubie]

In order to install the camtower and have your engine run as quietly as possible, you need 6 things.

1.  Rock hard lifters to begin with

2.  Genuine Subaru, metal reinforced high temperature O-rings.  O-rings off the shelf will melt rapidly and clog the oil passage hole.

3.  A faint touch of gasket maker around the additional two contact surface oil passages, between the camtower and the cylinder head.  Be careful not to get this gasket maker next to the actual oil passage hole so that when it squishes, it would flow into the hole.

4.  Clear oil passages to your lifters and camshaft.

5.  Degreased both mating surfaces

6.  20 minutes time for the gasket maker to get tacky before assembly and overnight wait before you actually run the engine.

[Subinoobi]

The cam tower being clogged could definitely be a possibility. I may be wrong but I think I only hear it on one side. As for the o rings, so it was a bad idea to just use o rings huh? I mean I figured it would at least last a little while before they would go.

[ruparts]

hi,

  i have seen several cam case blockages,  the little brass port incert is where it usually is,  and usually on the pass side,, the main oil passages are big enough to pass most bits but that little restrictor oriface is the bottleneck on the oil passages.  as for the oring seals they are only a couple of dollars, the hassle to get them is much worse than the cost but is necessary!

[silverback]

Many good comments here. In addition, since you will be removing the cam towers to check for obstructions, look closely at the oil relief pipes. There are 4 small holes to check for blockages. The relief pipes have an oil relief spring and plunger( valve in the FSM ). Perhaps the springs are old and compressed. Buy new ones for a couple bucks or some people 'stretch' them a little bit. Verify that the plunger/valve slides freely.

 

How many miles?

What goop was used for a sealant?

[Subinoobi]

Many good comments here. In addition, since you will be removing the cam towers to check for obstructions, look closely at the oil relief pipes. There are 4 small holes to check for blockages. The relief pipes have an oil relief spring and plunger( valve in the FSM ). Perhaps the springs are old and compressed. Buy new ones for a couple bucks or some people 'stretch' them a little bit. Verify that the plunger/valve slides freely.

 

How many miles?

What goop was used for a sealant?

I have 194k on it. I used some permatex anaerobic sealant. About those relief valves, I've never messed with those before, is there a specific procedure, or are they pretty noticeable and straightforward? Where would I get the new springs and plungers at if I need new ones? and how exactly will I know if they're worn?

[silverback]

Anaerobic sealants should not cause any problems. Some of them can tolerate 300 degrees. Find out what your goop can handle at the Loctite website. The orifice that ruparts referenced is small and needs to be probed, blown-out just to be sure.

 

The spring and valve in the oil relief pipe is straightforward. The banjo-bolt covers them. You won't need a valve/plunger. The springs get compressed over time. It is a 'gut call' on how the springs feel when you compress them and the length. The springs come from Subaru. Couple of bucks apiece.

 

I just went through 2 EA82 SPFI heads that someone used a years supply of RTV silicone on. The goop was everywhere. I poked, blew-out, squirted and scraped. Takes hours to get the goop out and verify open pipes, orifices, cam oil passages, ports and open HLA sockets (for supply and drain). Painful.

 

I will find part numbers and show new spring length versus old spring length.

[idosubaru]

what year EA82?

what size oring did you use?
Is it exactly OEM size?

 

 The one thing I messed up on was that I didn't go to the dealership for the genuine cam tower o rings. 

 

i would vote for this.

 

you had zero issues before hand - suggesting everything is working properly.

then you repaired it but inserted one "less desirable part/method" into the process

 

of course it's totally possible it could be something else yet hard to ignore the one glaring thing that most people wouldn't do.

 

that being said i think people say 85-87 models used to come with regular orings.

[silverback]

I am going to post a drawing and images of what works on my 87 EA82. I think they will work for you but I am not 100% positive. The drawing is the 'total picture' of the lubrication system.

Edited February 5, 2014 by silverback

[silverback]

  The oil pipe.  Banjo-bolt --->oil pipe-->spring-->valve(plunger) Make sure that the seat for the valve is clean. A pipe cleaner can probe the oil pipe and clean out the crud.

 

 

   Passenger, right side   cam tower, a.k.a. cam box,  with three important areas. Do not get sealant in these holes as scoobidubie pointed out. Top left red zone is where Subaru "O ring-CMS case # 13089AA010"is placed. It is slightly counterbored for the special metal washer.

 

Red zone at lower left has the brass restriction orifice. I measured the opening to have a diameter of 1,79mm or about 0.070" of an inch. Make sure it is open. A pipe cleaner can be passed through it.

 

Red zone at lower right, oblong, is the hole that has the oil relief valve on the other side. 

 

 

 

       This is the spring for the oil pipe relief valve. 2 are required -- one each  cam tower.  Some people just stretch the old springs.  If the springs are old, weak and compressed, your oil pressure in the engine galleries will be lower than normal/required.           

[silverback]

You listed a 'new oil pump' as one of the changes. How new, as in new-new or reman???? An old worn oil pump shaft seal/shaft will pass air. A new pump should have the correct seal that is made with 'VITON'. Did you put dabs of sealant on the engine case split lines where the oil pump mounts?????

 

 

Subaru oil pump shaft seal. Do not accept substitutes. The shaft has to be in good condition.

 

 

 

Subaru spring for oil pump. Many postings on the USMB refer to the "3" springs that one needs to help solve HLA noise. This is the first one, at the pump.

The three springs are:

#15020AA000, oil pump, quantity one

#15020AAo11, cam case, quantity two

Edited February 5, 2014 by silverback

[ruparts]

hi,

  silverback ,, hats off to you , excellent posts and pics there!   first time i've seen the information actually shown on the board.  

  the only thing i want to add is that you have to take the cam out of the case to clean that passage with the restrictor oriface,  any "stuff" will be caught in that short passage between the cam and the restrictor.

   NICE JOB!

[Subinoobi]

IMG_0118.JPG  The oil pipe.  Banjo-bolt --->oil pipe-->spring-->valve(plunger) Make sure that the seat for the valve is clean. A pipe cleaner can probe the oil pipe and clean out the crud.

 

 

IMG_0119.JPG   Passenger, right side   cam tower, a.k.a. cam box,  with three important areas. Do not get sealant in these holes as scoobidubie pointed out. Top left red zone is where Subaru "O ring-CMS case # 13089AA010"is placed. It is slightly counterbored for the special metal washer.

 

Red zone at lower left has the brass restriction orifice. I measured the opening to have a diameter of 1,79mm or about 0.070" of an inch. Make sure it is open. A pipe cleaner can be passed through it.

 

Red zone at lower right, oblong, is the hole that has the oil relief valve on the other side. 

 

 

 

IMG_0124.JPG       This is the spring for the oil pipe relief valve. 2 are required -- one each  cam tower.  Some people just stretch the old springs.  If the springs are old, weak and compressed, your oil pressure in the engine galleries will be lower than normal/required.           

Thank you so much for this post, it helps out so much. And Ruparts, I shall keep that in mind thanks for the tip! So I just got my o rings from the dealer and I ordered an oil relief spring (they only had one in the area) just in case one is worn too much. So i'm gonna try to do all of this in the car as I've already pulled the motor twice recently and I really don't want to do it again. Hopefully after a good clean and the right seals I won't have the terrible tickiong that's going to make me go insane!

[silverback]

Keep in mind that "the white zone is for loading and unloading only......the red zone is for"......very careful application of sealant................

[Subinoobi]

So all of my lifter are rock hard. I'm kind of scared this tick is something else. Any thoughts?

[stratman977]

Any evidence of the cam or the rocker getting hot? 

 

If your lifters are good than you don't have proper oil flow to them or the cam for some reason.

[Subinoobi]

Well after a bit of looking I noticed I had some play with my rocker arms. I got some remanufactured heads because my old ones were cracked through the port runners. Anyways the new heads, for some reason 2 of the valves are shorter where the rocker arms sit than all the rest of them on both sides by like 1/4 in. i never noticed this before although I should have. Now I'm just utterly discouraged.

[scoobiedubie]

Well after a bit of looking I noticed I had some play with my rocker arms. I got some remanufactured heads because my old ones were cracked through the port runners. Anyways the new heads, for some reason 2 of the valves are shorter where the rocker arms sit than all the rest of them on both sides by like 1/4 in. i never noticed this before although I should have. Now I'm just utterly discouraged.

 

You take both heads in to have the valves ground.  Tell them to remove the best valves from the bad head and install them where the too short stem valves are.

[ruparts]

hi,

 good job finding what most likely is the problem,,  whoever did that valve job may have made errors.  seems the only way to cause a valve to be short on the installed height is ,1 an incorrect valve was installed , 2 the keepers not seated on the stem correctly or the wrong ones/ or the retainers mismatched somehow, 3 stem tip ground way too short,,  4  the valve seat was replaced and is too thick, or the original has lifted up from it's place,  last is possible the valve is sticking in the guide, bent ? and not fully seated, or a broke spring maybe.  in any event it looks like you will need to remove the head/heads again to do a full inspection on the problem,, find out what the installed height spec is for the engine and check each valve for proper height and seating.  if all is to spec and the oiling is clear, that tic clack should be gone.

 hate you have had such a tramatic experience with all this, but i believe you definately on the right path to success now.

[Gloyale]

In order to install the camtower and have your engine run as quietly as possible, you need 6 things.

1.  Rock hard lifters to begin with

2.  Genuine Subaru, metal reinforced high temperature O-rings.  O-rings off the shelf will melt rapidly and clog the oil passage hole.

3.  A faint touch of gasket maker around the additional two contact surface oil passages, between the camtower and the cylinder head.  Be careful not to get this gasket maker next to the actual oil passage hole so that when it squishes, it would flow into the hole.

4.  Clear oil passages to your lifters and camshaft.

5.  Degreased both mating surfaces

6.  20 minutes time for the gasket maker to get tacky before assembly and overnight wait before you actually run the engine.

 

This is not needed, nor recommended by subaru or anyone.  Not sure were SoobieDoobie gets that info from?

 

I have seen where the clearance in the Cam journals was too large, and too much oil escape out the cam journal.....never makes it all the way to the lifter buckets.  Gotta replace Carrier.

 

In this case i would suggest a little more driving to see if they quite down.

 

After that I would remove the carrier and check it out.  Replace the O-rings with the OE type.

[scoobiedubie]

This is not needed, nor recommended by subaru or anyone.  Not sure were SoobieDoobie gets that info from?

 

There are a lot of things, that aren't absolutely needed.  However, from my experience, my engine runs quieter and I have assembled the top end both with and without this little extra touch of gasket maker.  People have commented how unusually quiet my engine is.

[Subinoobi]

So a little update on my situation, after close inspection, those 2 valves were somehow grinded down by my rocker arm. Nobody I know has ever seen that before. I don't see anything wrong with my rocker arms and my cams appear to be okay, I would think I would physically see what's causing such a drastic grinding. Any thoughts?