Can my 93 Loyale EA82 have died?

[myhilo]

Funny noise followed by stopped running.  Took off timing belt covers, left tensioner disintegrated, no oil in filter, did oil pump loose drive ??  Body is great shape, AT 78K Do I have to let it go, or can I find an engine, rebuild engine $$$$ or what.....

[Subruise]

look for metal in the oil when you drain it, if not do the tbelts and drive it.

[Gloyale]

Replace the belts and the tensioner.

[myhilo]

So this is a Non-interference Engine correct? 

I should drain the oil, as suggested, of no metal shards replace tensioners and belts and water pump?

Can anyone suggest a reliable source for parts, water pumps from Autozone are just not reliable so I'd like a new pump.

I see timing belt kits at Rock auto but don't know if the parts are again reliable?

 

Can I pull the oil pan with the engine in the car?

If so I expect I will need to pull the exhaust Y pipe and face the 20 yrs old studs and nuts, again any advice?

[Subruise]

soak with pb blaster for a day or so before battling the rust. pull y pipe to get at the motor mounts. youll need to lift the motor to get the pan past the pickup tube. oreilleys and rockauto are both good sources of waterpumps however ebay and amazon usually have good deals on timing belt kits and wps. youll want a water pump with a cast impeller and not a stamped one.

 

when you go to put the y pipe back on dont use an impact, youll strip the threads right out of the head.

 

good luck, RV

[ford'ssubaru's]

Yes this is a Non interference engine.  I just use O'Reillys for everthing except head and intake gaskets.  Those I get from Subaru.  Just a personal preference.  I would not go that far to drain the oil pan.  Will see the metal in your drain pan.  Like the above stated do the belts and test it.  Alot of people knock engines but I have had them pretty badly beat to crap and still running.  Try it and see.  There is an awesome thread on timing belt replacement.  As far as the idlers get new bearings or replace the whole assembly.  I personally buy the bearings at an industrial supply store.

 

Peace,

 

Eric

[rdweninger]

Ebay timing kits are good. They come with belts, idler and tensioners. 

  As far as waterpumps go.... do not get the cheapo rebuilds.   I like the Japenese made waterpumps. The cooling system is much too important to save a few bucks.   I usually go for the Aisen brand.   Double check your WP size... will be 105 or 110 mm.    Search and read this forum to figure out what you have.

[superpoo93]

Yes non-interference engine. I bought my water pump from Autozone no problems 60,000 miles later...works perfect. Rock Auto has quality material, with that said... I bought my TIming Belt kit off EBay before knew of ROck Auto. You can take off oil pan, but you have to raise engine up to do so. I would drain oil, and see if any metal comes out first. You said the left side belt broke, was it the drivers side??? If so, I would not worry about the engine, since it would have died quickly, just get a timing belt kit and start her up.

Edited February 20, 2014 by superpoo93

[TheWanderer]

As stated above, this is non interference.  One thing to add when you drain the oil to see if there are metal flakes in it, take a magnet (an old car speaker magnet works great for this) and put it in the bottom of the pan.  Any when you drain the oil, any metal flakes will stick to the magnet.  A bit of metal in the oil is not uncommon, as over the time parts will wear down.  I wouldn't be terribly concerned with that.  However if you have massive chunks of metal or a lot of flaking, that is cause for concern.

 

Rockauto is an excellent place for parts.  Personally this is the only place I will buy my parts anymore (the 5% discount code on top of already cheap prices makes it work waiting an extra day or 2 to get the parts).  And as mentioned above, make sure to get a water pump with a cast impeller, and one from a reputable manufacturer (for remans I prefer A-1 Cardone due to their lifetime warranty and being made in the USA. but willl also use Bosch or Gates pumps if not available.  Gates is lifetime warranty as well, whereas Bosch is 12 mo/12k miles). Make sure to order the proper pulley style pump for your application (either pressed on pulley or bolt on, for our cars it should be a bolt on pulley).  Rockauot lists a new Cardone Select waterpump (not reman'd) for $28 and a Bosch for ~$25 (depending on which one you need).  Gates pump lists for $22 (for bolt on pulley).  IME, all of them have cast metal impellers

 

As for timing belt kits, I recommend getting the full component kit.  which comes with the idlers, belts, and new tensioners.  I also recommend replacing (at the very minimum) the camshaft seals at the same time, if not the crank seals as well if they have never been done before (or you don't know the maintenance history of your engine).  Dayco and Gates make excellent kits, and there is even a Goodyear kit listed on Rockauto for $120.  Personally I prefer the Dayco kits on a budget (rockauto lists DAYCO Part # 95299K1S which includes cam and crank seals in the kit for $90) but if $ isn't a factor I will go with a Goodyear gatorback or Gates Powergrip for extra peace of mind. (Gates being the first choice of the two, due to the lifetime warranty vs, Goodyear's 12 month warranty).

Edited February 20, 2014 by TheWanderer

[myhilo]

Thanks for the info, can anyone give me advice to locate (that is find the old posting )the links refered to for doing the EA82 timing belt job?

[djanikowski]

Just did this myself the other day.


http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/48359-timing-belt-procedure-ea82/

[silverback]

For video of a timing belt 'job', visit UTube and find  'MilesFox' series on Subaru maintenance.  Go slow and double check the steps in your procedure.

 

When timing belts fail, the engine dies and the oil pump is no longer driven by a belt. You had some oil drain out of the filter.  Do not use a cheap oil filter. The brand to use is an endless debate on this forum. However, do not use a brand that starts with 'F'.  Subaru branded filters if you have access. Some like WIX.

Edited February 21, 2014 by silverback

[myhilo]

So I'll take a look at the car tomorrow, My mechanic tells me there was junk in the oil, so it's toast.  But he also told me it's an interference engine (EA82) and everyone here says it a non-interference, so I'm somewhat doubtful of the mechanics facts and I hope to check tomorrow.

 

What's with the F oil filter concerns????

[silverback]

What is the definition of "junk in the oil"?  Sludge? Pieces of RTV silicone sealer ?  Did the mechanic save an oil sample for your inspection? It is a non-interference engine as all posters have pointed out. Tow the vehicle away from the non-Subaru mechanic.

 

Previous posters have said to just change the belts and tensioners. Ditto.

 

Quality oil filters have a lot of filtering media. low pressure drop through the filter and an 'anti-drain back valve'.  The anti-drain back valve is supposed to keep oil in the filter when you shut the engine down( important for filters that are horizontal and upside down ). At start up, the filter is full so the oil pump does not have to fill the filter housing before oil is pumped to the oil galleries --- eliminating 'dry starts'.  You posted that the oil filter was empty. Change brands.  Many automotive forums on the internet have discussions on oil filter brands and qualities. You have time to search.

[myhilo]

OK, so I went to the mechanics shop, we put the car up on the lift and I took a magnet and pulled out some metal shards and what seemed like old gasket non-metalic stuff through the drain plug hole.  The metal shards stuck to the magnet is very concerning.  We also ran a compression test on cyl no. 1?

passangers side front cyl. As we put pressure into the cylinder using a leak down tester we could hear air coming out of the spfi air horn.  The passenger side cam was turned so that the single timing hole was at the top, aligned with the belt cover indicator.  My machanic suggest a leaking intake valve.

 

I had the car towed to my house and am looking forward to pulling the engine.  I've seen Miles Fox's you-tube videos and I can handle this. 

 

So should I begin to dissassemble the engine, look for another engine? 

Can I fit one of my ea81 engines into it? 

Can I find a EA82 and do a direct swap (my favored option) 

Can I rebuild this EA82? Will I be able to do this ?

 

[ford'ssubaru's]

MY OPINION ONLY,

 

I have rebuilt 3 EA-82.  I was patient and asked alot of questions.  Obiously you are both cause you have kept asking questions and have taken your car to pull and save.  They are just time consuming to rebuild.  I use HONDALUBE sealant for the cases.  The only reason for this is the motorcycle industry has perfected case sealing.  Other opinions are welcomed on this.  Before pulling your motor flush out coolant system thoroughly,  it makes it easier for cleaning if you don't have a full shop like some of the lucky dogs on this sight.  Rebuilding these just takes an eye for detail. 

 

Peace,

 

Eric

[myhilo]

Thanks for the reply and encouragment.  Where would I source rebuild kits, bearings, rings, and seals. 

I have the time and interest, the car will only get 3000 to 5000 miles a year most likely less.  So I don't need a lot of life after the rebuild, but these cars are getting old and many go to the crusher so I'm not sure where to get rebuild kits and will have to disassemble it all to evaluate damage and go from there.

[ford'ssubaru's]

Any major parts house.  Still fairly cheap.  Buy head gaskets and intake gaskets from Subaru though.

Thanks for the reply and encouragment.  Where would I source rebuild kits, bearings, rings, and seals. 

I have the time and interest, the car will only get 3000 to 5000 miles a year most likely less.  So I don't need a lot of life after the rebuild, but these cars are getting old and many go to the crusher so I'm not sure where to get rebuild kits and will have to disassemble it all to evaluate damage and go from there.

[myhilo]

Thanks for the reply, I'm not sure of the source of the shards
how can I tell if it's the oil pump or the bottom end.  Should I remove
the engine and then look to the Oil pump and remove it first, if it's
showing signs of coming apart?
 

But I still have the unexplained cyl #1 leaking air out of the
SPFI air horn during the compression leak down test.  This second
problem has made me spend time looking for a replacement whole engine if
I have multiple problems with this engine.

 

So, I think your suggesting I take a good look at the oil pump-correct?

[86 Wonder Wedge]

What are you describing as "shards"? Like rice sized pieces or glitter looking specs?

 

And when the mechanic did the compression test on No.1, he had already replaced the timing belt and retimed the cams correctly? And assuming the crank/cam alignment was correct, he does know the cam alignment marks are NOT TDC for the EA82, yes?

 

TDC (on the compression stroke) is the ONLY time the valves will be closed and you can perform a leakdown test.

 

Find a different mechanic.

[myhilo]

Thanks for your comments, I had found only one 'shard' a little longer than a flattened rice grain stuck to the magnet I put through the sump drain plug hole.  The forward timing belt was still on the engine and assumed to be still correctly timed in relation to the crank flywheel marks, but I do understand your comments and will try to redo the leakdown test. I can remove the valve cover and confirm the valves are both closed that way, correct?

[silverback]

This is strange. The vehicle has 78,000 miles and you are having these problems. Timing belts failed from age/mileage which is common. But metal???

Save any pieces of metal that you find.  Remove the oil pump and look at the pieces: oil pump shaft with inner rotor ( 4 lobe thingy ) attached and the outer rotor ( round thingy with 5 lobes that rotates around in engine case ). Using a mirror with good light, check out the rotor housing in the engine case. You will see immediately if the pieces are scratched/gouged from passing debris. If you have an oil pressure indicator in your instrument cluster then you may have seen 'normal' / less than normal oil pressure prior to belt failure.

Please remove your oil filler duct from the cam case. Is there a perforated gasket there?  Find anything?

[myhilo]

Thanks for your reply, it's just what I needed, that is how to proceed next, stay tuned....

[MR_Loyale]

You can do it. I did mine in 2006 and prior to that hat never done timing belts or pulled an engine. Go slow, and mark every connector and fitting yo remove with masking tape and write the number of the step you did on a sheet of paper:

 

1) Disconnect AC wiring harness

 

 

You end up with a nice list documenting everything you took apart and then you have only to reconnect in reverse. That is what I did and at the time I hadn't a clue what half the connectors did. But I got it all back together and it started first crank. Come here often for help and ignore what non-subaru mechanics tell you. They try to view Subie's and any other kind of car which they are not.

[myhilo]

Encouraging News,  Today I pulled the oil pan looking for more metal in the pan. ( I had pulled one shard out of through the drain plug and feared severe damage.  Doesn't look like any significant metal debris in the bottom of the oil pan. (I did find some metal which stuck to a magnet, was the texture of the metal filings used in classrooms to demonstrate magnet lines of force.  I'm attributing them to normal wear after 76K mi.  So I am going to next verify the #1 cylinder is not leaking from the intake valve.  The mechanic I took the car to ran a compression ( leak down ) test.  We could hear air coming out of the intake when the piston was at Top Dead Center (hopefully on the compression stroke).  I as assuming the test needs to be repeated and this time pull the valve cover and assure both valves are fully closed.  Once I confirm the #1 cylinder does seal, I will assume the prior test at the mechanics was caused by incorrect cam position and the cams will be reset correctly by the timing belt installation procedure which is covered here on this board in a number of places.  Next news won't take months......