subenoob Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Hey guys! I'll try and keep this short and relevant. Working on my newly acquired 1995 Legacy L AWD wagon. 193k miles, auto. So I do not have spark to the front two cylinders. I was planning new plugs and wires anyway, but these did not help. I first thought coil, but mine is testing fine with the volt meter. That brings me to the igniter. I figured that was the culprit, so I grabbed 2 used ones and a crank sensor from a local yard. However, somewhere else I saw to connect a light build between the middle 12V pole on the coil harness, the blue wire would pulse while cranking. The red wire with green stripe would not. I tried to trace the wire back to find a break all the way to the ECU to no avail. I don't think there is continuity from the red/green wire at the igniter harness to the ECM, but there is to the blue one I'm pretty sure. What gives? Is it that the red/green wire is bad? 3 bad igniters? I'm stuck and frustrated. I fancy myself a decent mechanic, but this wiring stuff isn't my strong suit. I'm not savy to computer controlled cars either which doesn't help. The car will start and run (a bit rough tho!). The CEL flashes (misfire) and I do not have a code reader, nor can I get the car to one. But I believe I have gotten close to the problem, I just need help/advice from fellow Subaru owners that know their stuff lol. Any help or input would be so greatly appreciated. Thanks guys. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 The 2 outer wires from the coil go straight to the igniter on the firewall, so you should have continuity from the coil to the igniter on those wires. The center wire as you know is 12v supply. Whether they're the same color at both ends I'm not sure. Check the plugs on the bellhousing because all of the engine wiring passes through there. Unplug, check for corrosion, plug back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subenoob Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) Thanks FairTax! I did jiggle those a little, but they do look a little grungy. That's a good place to start and rule that out. I'll open them up and clean today and do some more continuity tests and get back to you this. I hadn't considered that the red/green wire may not be the same back to the ecu, only assumed. And we know what happens when you assume lol. I'll do some more digging and church back. Thanks bud! Paul Edited February 24, 2014 by subenoob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 good luck, this one has me stumped. then again, electronics arent my strong point either. have you tried swapping in another 95 ecu? probably wouldnt cost too much from a junk yard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 The ECU likely isn't the problem. The wires from the coil go to the igniter on the firewall. The ECU does not control the coil, the igniter does. Check the wires between the igniter and coil before messing around with the wiring to the ECU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subenoob Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 Thanks suby and fairtax, I was thinking ECU as a last resort, but I understand they almost never fail. I don't think the ECU is my issue here either, but if I come across a usable ECU cheap, it couldn't hurt to try. Think there's other places to trouble shoot first. I def need to take a fresh look at this after work. I was so frazzled and crosseyed looking at wiring all day yesterday, I can't recall where I did and didn't have continuity, so I need to slow down and double check everything. As a side note, the ECU pin out I'm looking at is the only I could find online, and its for a 1997 Impreza I believe. Would this jive with my 95 Legacy? Thanks again for your input guys. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 95 legacy will have a different pinout than what you found. Check here: http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/subaru_manual_scans/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subenoob Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 OK, so if I probe at the ignitor on the red/green wire, with the coil plugged in, I have continuity to the red on the coil, but also the blue. This sound normal? Also the colors from the ignitor are red yellow blue, and at the coil, yellow red blue? So blue goes to blue, yellow to red, red to yellow...that seems strange to me. I thought yellow was 12V and blue and red were pulse??? This is all factory since 1995, seems weird tho.. I can't find a 95 ecu pin out, and I couldn't down the one in the link you provided Fairtax, well I could but my phone wouldn't open in. Perhaps I can try on the ole lady's iPad later. So not sure if the red with green wire I have at the ECU is the same red with green wire at the ignitor. What a mess lol thanks for bearing with me guys Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subenoob Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) Edit: OK testing continuity now from the red/green at the ignitor to red/green at ECU. With the coil plugged in it reads "14". With the coil unplugged it reads "586". I'm not a whiz with these voltmeters. I only know what 2 or 3 positions do haha! What is it trying to tell me? Seems like this is not correct... ****Edit AGAIN.... Ok...im ready to send this pooperoo to the scrap yard...only kidding lol, but man is this annoying...i dunno what i did, but now when the car is running I have a pulse on blue, yellow is solid on, red is solid on. When I probe the blue it makes the engine drop RPMs for a split second, then the test light pulses. Red nor yellow have any effect...just solid on... I'm closely eyeballing the coil. I wish I could afford a new one, but I can't spend that kind of dough right now on a car I have never heard run on all 4 cylinders lol. Only 2 subies at my local pick-n-pull. A 97 and 98 Impreza and one the coil is missing the other, a bit dif than mine (male lugs for plug wires as opposed to my 95's female lugs) Just to verify. With my "el-cheapo" mutli-meter. At the coil harness, on the "200" setting (lowest) from pole 2 to 1 it reads 1.4 from pole 2 to 3 it reads 1.4. Across the plug wire lugs, on the "200k" setting (highest) 1 to 2 plug wire lugs it reads 20. Same for 3-4 lugs. Seem OK? Thanks guys, Paul. Edited February 24, 2014 by subenoob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Kinda hard to give a crash course in how to use a multi-meter over the Internet. To check continuity you're using the lowest resistance setting which should be the 200 ohm scale on your meter. To check resistance we need to completely isolate the circuit that's being tested, which means it needs to be unplugged at both ends. So you need to unplug both the igniter and the coil. This ensures that you're only testing the part of the circuit that we're interested in, which is the wiring between the coil and the igniter. Only the red/green wire, and the blue wire at the coil go to the igniter. The yellow at the coil is your 12V supply wire which comes from the fuse box. It does NOT go to the igniter. Plus, we know that you have power there, so there's nothing wrong with the yellow wire. Find the red/green wire at the igniter plug, and check the metal terminal in the plug for corrosion or damage. If its clean, touch one probe from your meter to the terminal for the red/green wire. Touch the other meter probe to the metal terminal for the red/green wire at the coil plug. The meter should show 0 (or very close to 0, 0.01 is fine), meaning there is no resistance. Do the same check for the blue wire. You should have close to 0 resistance. If the meter shows OL (same as when the probes are not touching anything) this means the resistance is too high for the meter to read. Basically, the circuit is broken somewhere between the coil and the igniter. This could be a broken wire, or more likely a bad connection in one of the connectors between the coil and igniter. The only three connectors those wires go to are the coil, one of the large connectors at the bell housing (both wires go to the same connector), and the connector at the igniter. For right now, those are the only parts you need to focus on. Looking anywhere else is just wasting time. You don't need a coil. This is a wire problem, or a bad connection in one of the connectors between the coil and the igniter. The link I posted above is to a site with a Factory service manual for 1995 Legacy. It covers the entire car. The ECU pinout is in there in the troubleshooting section. It also has wire diagrams. You'll want to open it on a computer though because its 70 MB worth of PDF files. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subenoob Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 That's a great summary and I really appreciate it Fairtax. I know its hard to diagnose things like this over the interwebs, but I really appricate you guys trying! What your saying makes perfect sense and I understand completely now. I didn't mess with it a whole lot last night, but tonight I'm gonna try and be more precise and make a check list of what checks out good and what doesn't. Hopefully I can pinpoint this tonight. I'll be updating for sure. Thanks again Fairtax. I'll try and download that manual on the ole lady's laptop tonight. Thanks for that link. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 good luck, i know issues like this can be frustrating. i had something like this with a carburetor a few years back. that is also why i dont like carbs now, lol/. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subenoob Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Give me a carburetor any day!!! If my one of my carbed cars won't start, its fuel or spark. All easy fixes. The suby has crank sensor, cam sensor, O² sensors, MAP, MAF, coil, ignitor, timing belt, fuel pump, ECU all kinds of crap haha!!! Gimme a Rochester, a mechanical pump, and a distributor, preferably with points haha! I'm slowly moving up into the computer controlled world. Kicking and screaming tho. This 95 is the newest thing I've ever owned... Edited February 25, 2014 by subenoob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Carbs were awesome before they tried to make them all electronical. Not very efficient, but simple enough for the most part that anyone could work on them. Had an electronic feedback carb (EECIV) on my 84 ranger that went haywire and screwed up all kinds of stuff. Swapped it out for an old 2150 and changed the ignition system to the old Duraspark II. Never had a problem after that. Ran great and would start every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 i got in a fight with a hitachi from an ea81...... hate that carb, lol. also the reason i am doing a wrx conversion on my brat, lol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Disconnect ECU Disconnect Ignitor Disconnect Coil NOW.......measure continuity on Blue wire and Red/Green wire end to end from Ignitor to Coil. Both should be near zero resistance. If not there is a break in the wire. If that's all good then measure on Yellow/Blue wire and Yellow/Violet back to pins 14 and 13 at the ECU respectively. They'll be the same color at the ECU so it should be easy to find them. They're on the top row, 3 and 4th pins in from the end. Should again be nearly zero. If you get any other reading there is a break or short in the wire. Edited February 25, 2014 by Gloyale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 From what you stated earlier it appears the red/grn wire is open. There is a gray, 16 pin connector, B22/E3 near the center of the engine that the wires pass through. The trouble is most likely at that point. Disconnecting and reconnecting the connector may solve the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subenoob Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 Just a quick update, while its on my mind. Thanks for the assistance Gloyale. With everything unplugged, both blue and red/green wires read 000 from the coil harness to the ignitor plug. However, pins 13/14 on my ECU are empty on the top row. The 3rd/4th from the opposite end are both yellow. I'll investigate further. Have not checked the connectors at the top of the trans. There's a bunch of them there so I'm gonna pull them all apart and clean for good measure. I'll be sure to update later this evening when she fires right up and purrs like a kitten....(a man can dream lol) Thanks again guys! Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subenoob Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 OK found the connector they doth pass through. Cleaned it and checked continuity on both sides of that connector to the ignitor. 000 across the board. Still no spark to cyls 1 and 2... Who needs some 95 legacy parts??? Lol that's about how I'm feeling right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 wrx swap time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 However, pins 13/14 on my ECU are empty on the top row. The 3rd/4th from the opposite end are both yellow. Those are the ones you want......Look closely and they should have a stripe......One Yellow/blue, and one Yellow/ Violet........ Matching the 2 yellow wires at the ignitor. These are the trigger pulse wires that signal the transitor to fire the coil. Thanks for the assistance Gloyale. With everything unplugged, both blue and red/green wires read 000 from the coil harness to the ignitor plug. That's perfect.....that almost assuredly means the break is on one of the yellow wires between the ECU and Ignitor mentioned above......If you test those wires and they are good..... Then it's a problem with the ECU itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subenoob Posted February 27, 2014 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) Ah!! Thanks for clearing that up Gloyale! I was spacing there and didn't even put 2 and 2 together there!! I'll check those 2 wires now and update. Thank you again. **update** checked yellow/violet and yellow/blue wires. Meter reads 000 on both from ignitor plug to ECU. **another update** just for poops and giggles, I checked compression. 150 exactly across the board. I also pulled the outside timing covers. Marks line up, but I can't see crank of course. Checked the teeth on the back of the cam pulley to trigger cam sensor, cleaned cam sensor. Still no spark to 1/2. I don't want to send this ole girl to the great Subaru junkyard in the sky... Oh, and this thing leaks oil like a siv. Can seals, seporator, valve covers, maybe oil pan. Engine cross member is soaked and dripping after every run. Considering cutting my losses at this point man Edited February 27, 2014 by subenoob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 it can be saved, dont give up on it yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subenoob Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 it can be saved, dont give up on it yet! Thanks for the moral support man!! Haha I'm not yet. I'm really digging this car. Its clean, and its a wagon . I've had a thing for wagons (particularly hearses) since I can remember. I don't mind yanking the engine for a separator and seal and t-belt job, but I can't keep throwing time and money at this thing without being able to have it run right and drive etc. Gonna tinker this weekend and see what I can come up with. Might just back half it and stick a 347 ford stroker in it. I have a habit of doing stuff like that.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 If you still have the timing covers off check the reluctor fins on the crankshaft and make sure none of the tabs have broken off. This has happened to some folks with this kind of problem. If they are okay then it would seem the ECU has to be at fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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