long travel Outbacks or making Subarus faster and more reliable offroad

[pontoontodd]

Maximum respect to you for raising such a project!!

You are doing metalwork as Main job?

 

Thanks, glad you like it.  Plan to get back on it today.

Fabricating is just a hobby although I've done a fair amount of it.  I do some machining at work but it's not my main job.

[AdventureSubaru]

Your skill is admirable. The thread topic now feels a little misleading. You started here asking advice and you're now breaking new ground and doing it quite well. Many of us are learning a lot just watching this project grow and develop. Good work. It's looking great!

[pontoontodd]

Your skill is admirable. The thread topic now feels a little misleading. You started here asking advice and you're now breaking new ground and doing it quite well. Many of us are learning a lot just watching this project grow and develop. Good work. It's looking great!

 

Thanks, I should be able to get some good video today so hopefully I can post that soon.

What I could still use advice with is this.  For our longer trips, what sort of spare parts should we take?  Considering these cars have 200k+ miles on them, should we be packing cam/crank sensors, coils, injectors, ???

[AdventureSubaru]

If it doesn't weigh much, would bring them. I keep a tote of good used parts in the spare tire well of my car which includes sensors and coil in ziploc bags. Injectors aren't a bad idea. I've not needed them yet. Most roadside repairs have been the zip tie, duct tape and wire bypass variety. I keep an interior lightswitch and a roll of speaker wire in case i need to bypass anything or hardwire anything. Over the years I've used that to hardwire a starter, radiator fans, blower motor and probably more that I'm forgetting. 

[pontoontodd]

If it doesn't weigh much, would bring them. I keep a tote of good used parts in the spare tire well of my car which includes sensors and coil in ziploc bags. Injectors aren't a bad idea. I've not needed them yet. Most roadside repairs have been the zip tie, duct tape and wire bypass variety. I keep an interior lightswitch and a roll of speaker wire in case i need to bypass anything or hardwire anything. Over the years I've used that to hardwire a starter, radiator fans, blower motor and probably more that I'm forgetting. 

 

Good call on the wire and switch.  Speaking of starters and alternators, should we worry about having one of those fail?

 

We beat on the car hard on Saturday and didn't bend or break any suspension.  Got some good video too so hopefully I'll have that edited and posted in a few days.

[pontoontodd]

We were trying to break the suspension on Saturday and couldn't.  This isn't how I plan on driving it normally, just figured it would be best to find the weak links close to home if there are any.

 

[pontoontodd]

The oil pan is badly smashed in again.  So bad this time the oil pickup tube was bent up a bit (found that out when trying to put a good pan on).

 

 

The guard was bent up and the engine must be moving around quite a bit on the mounts since the valve covers appear to be rubbing on the crossmember slightly.  The rubber in the engine mounts has been cracked for a long time.  I got group N engine mounts, expensive but hopefully they will keep the engine in place better.

 

 

Changed the guard a bit to make it easier to remove, farther from the oil pan, and a bit stronger.  Hopefully it isn't too low now.  Eventually I'd like to put a piece of 10" C channel under the oil pan.

 

[Uberoo]

and people say that long travel ifs doesn't help offroad...The long travel subi kicked a55 off road,it certainly seemed to go through that snow better than the stock subaru,and a hell of a lot better than the bronco.. 

 

ALSO: you might be able to keep the skidplate from bending if you make some bolt on supports from the crossmember.The skidplate right now is like 1/2 of a truss,lots of bracing on one side,but nothing holding those braces up.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Uberoo

[pontoontodd]

and people say that long travel ifs doesn't help offroad...The long travel subi kicked a55 off road,it certainly seemed to go through that snow better than the stock subaru,and a hell of a lot better than the bronco.. 

 

ALSO: you might be able to keep the skidplate from bending if you make some bolt on supports from the crossmember.The skidplate right now is like 1/2 of a truss,lots of bracing on one side,but nothing holding those braces up.

 

The long travel definitely helps.  Even with the 1.5" lift on the stock struts it was able to get up that 5' steep hill and the Impreza can't though.  It does ride much better than the Impreza now.  We definitely would have bent some struts on the Outback if we had driven it that hard on the stock suspension.  And that Bronco has some city boy tires so that was holding him back some.

 

We've done a little more tuning since then and the front is great now.  Plan on going out Sunday to see how well it does in the mud/dirt, maybe some small rock piles.

 

We have a bunch of other ideas on the front ends.  One is to have a more solid lower rad support and have rails that connect either end of that to the bumper and then down to the swaybar mounts.  Also instead of the rectangular tubing under the oil pan something like a 10" C channel that could sit up higher and surround the oil pan.  If I did another one from scratch that's how I'd do it anyhow.  How were you thinking of tieing it into the crossmember?  Right now it bolts to the middle of the crossmember behind the oil pan.

 

Any ideas on a shorter radiator or raising/tilting it for better approach angle?  Something like a Cherokee rad and fans would be good but they're too wide.  I've seen someone put the rad and fans on top of the engine but with no hood.

[Gloyale]

Tie the front of the skid/lower rad support to the recovery hooks. Strongest point.

 

Otherwise. Th Lower rad support will just keep pushing up every time the plate hits the ground. Been there, done that

[pontoontodd]

Alright, time for more advice wanted.

Long story, and eventually I'll at least put up some video, but we went to an off road park yesterday that was all rutted muddy trails.  On the plus side, the long travel seemed to work great and we even went over a rock pile that I never would have attempted before.

After hundreds of starts/stops and a bunch of pulling people out, my clutch was starting to slip.  Then near the end of the day I broke reverse.  Not sure how, it just suddenly didn't work and made bad noises.  Fortunately we were able to drive home but the clutch did slip a few times just flooring the gas pedal in fourth or fifth gear.  So I need a new clutch and trans. 

I was looking at the Exedy HD, specifically 15801.

I think I've found a trans not too far way for $350, I will probably just get that and then try to fix this one when I have time.  I would really like lower gearing and/or locking diffs but that's probably not something that's going to happen in the next couple weeks.

 

Thoughts?

[legacygt4]

The automatic trans has 4.44 as appose to 4.11 and the center diff actually locks. In my experience it is a little bit stronger than the 5spd manual but slower on the street.

 

P.S your suspension is amazing! I want it.

Edited March 31, 2015 by legacygt4

[pontoontodd]

The automatic trans has 4.44 as appose to 4.11 and the center diff actually locks. In my experience it is a little bit stronger than the 5spd manual but slower on the street.

 

P.S your suspension is amazing! I want it.

 

The auto would definitely be better for crawling, or going to that park we went to Sunday.  As you can probably tell I don't have a lot of interest in going super slow.

 

The suspension is almost all bolt on.  We'll see how it holds up, but I'm definitely interested in building suspension kits for sale if you have the $$...

[legacygt4]

Maybe early JDM STI, you can find them in a 4.44 and they are much stronger than the legacy 5spd. Down side is they are expensive.

 

As far as the suspension let me know when you are ready for production

Edited April 1, 2015 by legacygt4

[AdventureSubaru]

Exedy is the way to go for subaru clutches. I think you're on the right track.

 

be sure to double check that the final drive is the same on the new transmission as the old so it's a direct bolt in. Or get the rear diff from the donor car as well.

 

I was wondering how long the clutch would last. Off roading a manual trans sube is do-able but I end up riding the clutch a lot.

[pontoontodd]

Maybe early JDM STI, you can find them in a 4.44 and they are much stronger than the legacy 5spd. Down side is they are expensive.

 

As far as the suspension let me know when you are ready for production

 

Good to know.  How expensive is expensive?  Once I have the bad one out and a good one in, I'll probably look more seriously at setting it up with a low range or other mods.

Also, how common is trans breakage when offroading these cars?  I've heard of guys street racing them breaking first but not off roading.

 

I'm going to keep driving the suspension as is for a while, but so far I think long travel struts in front would be much easier and cheaper than the a arm setup with almost as much travel.

 

Exedy is the way to go for subaru clutches. I think you're on the right track.

 

be sure to double check that the final drive is the same on the new transmission as the old so it's a direct bolt in. Or get the rear diff from the donor car as well.

 

I was wondering how long the clutch would last. Off roading a manual trans sube is do-able but I end up riding the clutch a lot.

 

I'm hoping the higher clamping force will make the clutch last longer.  Hopefully I'll just get a little more wheelspin and less clutch slip when starting.

 

This trans is out of the same year Outback so I should be good, but is there an easy way to check the ring and pinion ratio without taking the trans apart?

 

 

Next question:

We did tear/wear out a brake hose in the rear.  There was clearance for it to go up in an upside down U between the tire and strut/reservoir.  Then that clearance got filled with mud.  I've been thinking about replacing all the brake lines for a while.  One of them rusted out last fall and had to be fixed.  I should probably reroute them on the suspension with this added travel.  The ABS has never worked and takes up space and adds a lot of plumbing.  I've always wanted some kind of cutting brake or functional handbrake.

 

My thought is to just run braided stainless -3 from the master, tee to the front calipers.  Then run a line from the master to a cutting brake (single handle, left rear, right rear) and from there back to the rear calipers.

 

I could put in two hand brakes and have four wheel independent braking capabilities.  Rock crawlers often do this so they can lock up both fronts by pushing both forward, both rears by pulling both, either rear by pulling one, etc.  That would cost hundreds more dollars and require a lot more plumbing.

 

Do you know what fittings I would need to do that or where would be the best place to get the fittings/line/etc?  I think the Subaru master is 10mm x 1.0 and the calipers are all just banjos.

[pontoontodd]

Here's a little trick I figured out that might help someone down the road.  I got the nut off the top of the shift linkage bolt but couldn't break the bolt loose.  I was starting to round off the hex head.  I put the nut back on so I wouldn't damage the threads and put a big socket over the bolt head and pressed it out with a c clamp.

 

 

 

If you learn nothing else from this build thread, you should learn never to buy a car from the midwest.

[Uberoo]

Maybe petition the local morons ,err incompetent jerks,err elected officials to stop salting the roads and find something else that isnt as destructive to cars and the environment...

Edited April 2, 2015 by Uberoo

[pontoontodd]

Maybe petition the local morons ,err incompetent jerks,err elected officials to stop salting the roads and find something else that isnt as destructive to cars and the environment...

 

That would be great.  Easily the biggest handicap to car ownership around here.

 

What do they use near you, sand?

[legacygt4]

This transmission should do the trick http://www.ebay.com/itm/JDM-Ver4-GC8-WRX-STi-EJ20-Turbo-TY752-4-4-LSD-Transmission-w-Differential-Axles-/281631147707?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item41928646bb&vxp=mtr

Good to know. How expensive is expensive? Once I have the bad one out and a good one in, I'll probably look more seriously at setting it up with a low range or other mods.

Also, how common is trans breakage when offroading these cars? I've heard of guys street racing them breaking first but not off roading.

 

I'm going to keep driving the suspension as is for a while, but so far I think long travel struts in front would be much easier and cheaper than the a arm setup with almost as much travel.

 

 

 

I'm hoping the higher clamping force will make the clutch last longer. Hopefully I'll just get a little more wheelspin and less clutch slip when starting.

 

This trans is out of the same year Outback so I should be good, but is there an easy way to check the ring and pinion ratio without taking the trans apart?

 

 

Next question:

We did tear/wear out a brake hose in the rear. There was clearance for it to go up in an upside down U between the tire and strut/reservoir. Then that clearance got filled with mud. I've been thinking about replacing all the brake lines for a while. One of them rusted out last fall and had to be fixed. I should probably reroute them on the suspension with this added travel. The ABS has never worked and takes up space and adds a lot of plumbing. I've always wanted some kind of cutting brake or functional handbrake.

 

My thought is to just run braided stainless -3 from the master, tee to the front calipers. Then run a line from the master to a cutting brake (single handle, left rear, right rear) and from there back to the rear calipers.

 

I could put in two hand brakes and have four wheel independent braking capabilities. Rock crawlers often do this so they can lock up both fronts by pushing both forward, both rears by pulling both, either rear by pulling one, etc. That would cost hundreds more dollars and require a lot more plumbing.

 

Do you know what fittings I would need to do that or where would be the best place to get the fittings/line/etc? I think the Subaru master is 10mm x 1.0 and the calipers are all just banjos.

Edited April 3, 2015 by legacygt4

[pontoontodd]

This transmission should do the trick http://www.ebay.com/itm/JDM-Ver4-GC8-WRX-STi-EJ20-Turbo-TY752-4-4-LSD-Transmission-w-Differential-Axles-/281631147707?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item41928646bb&vxp=mtr

 

More than I'm willing to spend, although it is low mileage with rear diff and axles.  Good to know that option is out there.

[Uberoo]

That would be great.  Easily the biggest handicap to car ownership around here.

 

What do they use near you, sand?

sand, gravel,etc.It doesn't rust out cars but expect to replace a windshield every once in a while..People with money replace them every year,but I have never had a car without a cracked windshield so it doesn't bother me.Officer friendly might tell you to replace the windshield,but unless he is paying for it,not happening.

[pontoontodd]

I think the main cause of the clutch slipping was mud in the pressure plate.

 

 

I cleaned some of it out and the fingers came up:

 

 

You can still see the machining marks on most of the friction surface.  Disc and flywheel still looked good too.

 

 

Is there a dust/splash shield that covers the bottom of the flywheel for these cars?

Edited April 4, 2015 by pontoontodd

[Uberoo]

There is but its better not to run it,because all it will do is stop the mud/water from draining back out.Next time if your clutch starts slipping open the top rubber clutch cover and spray some water down into the clutch with a hose while the engine is running. Depending on how much is in there even a 20 oz bottle of water might do the trick.

 

Speaking of that cover if you still have one it bolts onto the bottom of the  engine with two 10 mm bolts.The factory piece is a thin piece of stamped steel with no o ring or gaskets...at least my phase 1 ej22 is that way,but subaru may have put the cover on the transmission in later years.

 

 

In fact I usually remove most of the covers the car came with from the factory for offroad:

 remove timing belt covers because they let water/mud/coolant/oil in but don't let it escape so your timing belt swims through that crap,drastically shortening its life. With an interference engine I might just notch the bottom of the covers to let them drain...better yet would be to make some covers out of fine expanded metal mesh to keep debris out of the belt, but it would easily drain and you could instantly see if the engine was starting to leak oil or coolant.

 

Bottom clutch cover for the reasons above.

 

Backing plates for disk brakes because they are very good at holding rocks/debris and scoring the hell out of the rotors...

 

mudflaps end up getting torn or ripped off anyway...

Edited April 5, 2015 by Uberoo

[pontoontodd]

There is but its better not to run it,because all it will do is stop the mud/water from draining back out.Next time if your clutch starts slipping open the top rubber clutch cover and spray some water down into the clutch with a hose while the engine is running. Depending on how much is in there even a 20 oz bottle of water might do the trick.

 

Speaking of that cover if you still have one it bolts onto the bottom of the  engine with two 10 mm bolts.The factory piece is a thin piece of stamped steel with no o ring or gaskets...at least my phase 1 ej22 is that way,but subaru may have put the cover on the transmission in later years.

 

 

In fact I usually remove most of the covers the car came with from the factory for offroad:

 remove timing belt covers because they let water/mud/coolant/oil in but don't let it escape so your timing belt swims through that crap,drastically shortening its life. With an interference engine I might just notch the bottom of the covers to let them drain...better yet would be to make some covers out of fine expanded metal mesh to keep debris out of the belt, but it would easily drain and you could instantly see if the engine was starting to leak oil or coolant.

 

Bottom clutch cover for the reasons above.

 

Backing plates for disk brakes because they are very good at holding rocks/debris and scoring the hell out of the rotors...

 

mudflaps end up getting torn or ripped off anyway...

 

Thanks for the advice on the clutch cover.  I'll try the hose thing if it happens again.

 

Definitely agree on the mudflaps, I could see removing the disc brake dust shields too.  Not sure I agree on the timing belt covers, I suppose I should pop one off and see how much stuff is in there.