long travel Outbacks or making Subarus faster and more reliable offroad

[pontoontodd]

The main issue I've had since getting the Outback back together is that I can only put a few gallons at a time in it at the gas pump.  I think it's mainly a matter of moving the vent fitting location on the fuel cell.  I would still like to find a good diagram of all the vent hoses, carbon canister, etc.

 

I drove it to a couple of our local testing grounds on Friday.  Our local shock tuning expert thinks the front struts look much better than the a-arms.  The biggest issue now is that it seems like the struts are sticky.  He seemed to think we can overcome this at least partially through some shock valving changes, so we're going to try that and look into different greases and bushings.

 

The next place I went to didn't do any damage to the car mechanically but at one point I was barely able to start the engine.  The alternator was only putting out 11.5V.  Fortunately my friend had a good used Subaru alternator there that we put on the car, bumping it up to almost 14V.  He sort of owes it to another guy though so I'll have to figure out something there.

 

On Sunday we went to the Badlands off road park.  It was about 90F, humid, and no wind, so we were happy we had AC.  Charged up the AC in the Forester in the parking lot before we hit the trails as a matter of fact.

 

We drove the trails pretty hard for a few hours in our own cars, and then started switching around. 
The Outback definitely rode much better than the Forester and could go up obstacles we would not try in the Forester.  In fact, we did a few things we would never have even looked at a couple years ago.  The Outback's suspension might be a bit on the stiff side, we rarely felt it bottom out, but overall the ride quality was amazing.
The Forester had much more wheelspin with its less aggressive tires and less articulation, which was entertaining sometimes and a hindrance at other times.  It is really fun to drive and does great considering it's almost completely stock.

 

The Outback kept running hot when we were not moving enough and had the AC on, but the Forester had no problems with the AC on all the time.  Sometimes the Outback would be OK on temp, but a bunch of times it got pretty hot.  We're thinking maybe the thermostat is sticking.

 

The new guy we brought with who had never been to an off road park commented on the way home that he couldn’t imagine doing that without AC and couldn’t think of any other car that could drive 80mph for 250 miles, beat the crap out of it offroad for seven hours, and then drive it back home without ever wrenching on it.

 

It's going to be a while before I can edit all the video we've gotten but it will be good.

 

So here are my latest questions:

 

What is the best grease for inverted struts for minimum friction?

 

Should I get a reman alternator or get my old one rebuilt?  Is there a new option?

 

What is the best thermostat to get?  I've noticed some are advertised as fail open, I thought they have all been made that way for decades.

[Uberoo]

1. struts don't use grease.Way to heavy and would cause your sticking issue.Instead try 10 or 15w motorcycle fork oil.

2. remaned parts store ANYTHING is crap.A used OEM alternator/cv axle,etc would be better than a reman. Rebuild your stock alt if a used one isnt available.

3.OEM thermostat.PERIOD.END OF STORY.

[pontoontodd]

1. struts don't use grease.Way to heavy and would cause your sticking issue.Instead try 10 or 15w motorcycle fork oil.

2. remaned parts store ANYTHING is crap.A used OEM alternator/cv axle,etc would be better than a reman. Rebuild your stock alt if a used one isnt available.

3.OEM thermostat.PERIOD.END OF STORY.

 

1.  The shafts are lubricated with shock oil which is as you describe.  It is between the shock bodies and strut housings that they are greased.  Every description of rebuilding inverted struts I've seen has recommended using a thick waterproof grease, but perhaps gear lube or something would work.  The bushings we're using should be able to operate dry and they seem to stay pretty clean with the seals we're using now.

 

2.  I should have been more clear, I was not considering an Autozone special.  The only thing available on Rock Auto was AC Delco, etc reman alternators.  I was really hoping to just get a new one for $100.  Also considering getting the old one rebuilt locally.

 

3.  Will do.

[Uberoo]

Its not just autozone that remanned stuff is crap,it everywhere because only a few national companies rebuild the various parts.For example CV axles are rebuilt by A1 cardone, from there they go to the local autozone/orielies/napa/etc The only difference is a part in a "napa" box can charge a premium over a box that is "duralast" even though 9 out of 10 times its the exact same part made in china or taiwan.

[Cyfun]

When it comes to spoob like Alternators, I usually go with an Ultima at Oreillys. They're usually around $100, and probably made in China like everything else. But they have a lifetime warranty and Oreillys has stores everywhere, so not if, but when it takes a spoob, they will replace it without batting an eye.  As I have a bad habit of driving through deep water, I've already fried a couple, and that warranty has paid for itself.

[pontoontodd]

Its not just autozone that remanned stuff is crap,it everywhere because only a few national companies rebuild the various parts.For example CV axles are rebuilt by A1 cardone, from there they go to the local autozone/orielies/napa/etc The only difference is a part in a "napa" box can charge a premium over a box that is "duralast" even though 9 out of 10 times its the exact same part made in china or taiwan.

 

 

When it comes to spoob like Alternators, I usually go with an Ultima at Oreillys. They're usually around $100, and probably made in China like everything else. But they have a lifetime warranty and Oreillys has stores everywhere, so not if, but when it takes a spoob, they will replace it without batting an eye.  As I have a bad habit of driving through deep water, I've already fried a couple, and that warranty has paid for itself.

 

I was including all the chain stores with the Autozone reman comment.  I know all those reman starters and alternators last about six months.  A warranty is great if you just drive around town but if you're hundreds of miles from home in the woods it's worthless.  There is a difference between a reman and made in China, not saying one is much better than the other, but some Chinese parts are actually made well.  Not that I have the time and resources to figure out which ones.

[Cyfun]

I was including all the chain stores with the Autozone reman comment.  I know all those reman starters and alternators last about six months.  A warranty is great if you just drive around town but if you're hundreds of miles from home in the woods it's worthless.  There is a difference between a reman and made in China, not saying one is much better than the other, but some Chinese parts are actually made well.  Not that I have the time and resources to figure out which ones.

After much experimentation, I've found that supposedly better quality parts aren't necessarily more reliable.  So what I consider is how hard a part is to replace.  If it's something that's a bitch to get to, like a clutch or oil pump or timing belt, I'll try and get something of better quality that might not have a great warranty.  But if it's something like an alternator, I'll go for reasonably good quality with the best warranty, and is available at a local retail store.

 

For example: I run a 2 inch lift on my GLW, which puts my CVs at a pretty steep angle.  I could get some really nice EMPI axles, but they only have a 1 year warranty, and take a good week to get shipped to me.  So I go with the Oreilly's ones with the lifetime warranty, and just swap them out every year.

 

The other nice thing about having a lifetime warranty is that you can keep it as a spare part in your trunk.  And if you install it 5 years later and it immediately breaks, you're covered.

[pontoontodd]

Thanks for all the advice.  The lifetime warranty parts can be a good deal sometimes.

 

When I called about the thermostat, the Subaru dealer said a reman alternator is $106 ($50 core), so I think I'll go that route.

 

Another issue I ran into when I put the front struts on is that the tie rods were just barely long enough when everything was realigned (roughly).  Probably two threads of engagement.  I'm not sure why since the lower arms are basically the same and I set the alignment about the same as it was with the a-arms.  I had to adjust them at least 1/2" longer.  I wanted to drive the car that day so I made some extenders, which seem to be holding up fine.

Are there any longer inner or outer tie rods available?  An inch longer would be ideal, even a half inch longer would work.  I went through my pile of various used Subaru and aftermarket inners and outers and they're all the same lengths.

Edited July 28, 2015 by pontoontodd

[pontoontodd]

Here is how I did the fuel lines and the floor.  Cut a few pieces of 1" foam to support the floor panels.

 

 

 

 

With the stock floor panels set over the top.  Eventually I'll make a piece of sheet metal to cover this with carpet glued to it.  The stock floor panel that covers the spare tire is heavy.

 

 

 

After I drove the car for a day, this happened.  The gasket under the cap of the fuel cell is sagging out and falling apart.  There were two gaskets stacked, not sure if that was normal or relevant to the problem.  I'm sure this thing is normally mounted with the cap at the top but I'm disappointed the gaskets couldn't take pump gas for a day.

 

 

Cut a piece of cork gasket to cover the entire hole.  I have no use for a cap on the side.

 

 

Made a steel plate to bolt over the top, welded three bolts to a split ring on the inside for easy assembly and disassembly.

 

 

I'd really like to fit a bigger surge tank but I haven't found anything larger than these 1 gallon tanks that would fit.  There are some wedge shaped four, five, and six gallon cells I've seen but I think they're too wide, not to mention expensive.

[pontoontodd]

First, here is a video mainly from the Badlands a few weeks ago.  You can really see the difference in ride quality in the figure eight clip.

 

 

For the most part, the video doesn't do it justice.  There were trails where the Forester was thrashing around, tires bouncing off the ground, and we were being lightly jostled around in the Outback.  Or if the Outback was leading the way, we could take any line we wanted and the guy in the Forester is pushing it as hard as he can and trying to find the smoothest line to keep up.

 

The main problem still seems to be static friction.  I am going to try cutting spiral grooves in the bearings and adding graphite grease when I put the fronts back together to see if it helps.

 

Installed a Subaru thermostat and Subaru rebuilt alternator.

 

Started mocking up a cage too to see how practical that would be and confirm exactly what we'd have to do to be legal.

 

A few more things on my wish list are:

 

Improved air filtration - current thought is to find a larger (longer) stock air box that would fit that I could run a snorkel to the hood scoop or at least high up in the engine compartment, maybe with a filter twice as big as stock.  So if you know of one, post up.

 

Bigger fuel cell for surge tank.  I could probably fit a 12" x 18" x 4" tall cell on the passenger side.

 

Still looking for longer inner and/or outer tie rod ends too.

[pontoontodd]

A little rust/fatigue re-repair on the LR strut tower after we got home.  I had just welded this back together without adding material the first time.  The other side had a larger gap so I'd added a strip of sheet metal and that seems to be staying together, so I did it on this side.

 

 

 

Not very pretty or exciting, but it needed to be done.

 

Still looking for longer tie rods and a bigger airbox if anyone has any ideas.

[Cyfun]

You could apply the same suspension mod technique to an Audi allroad, couldn't you?  The damn allroads have this adjustable air suspenion that is expensive to replace when it goes out, so you can find the damn things for $1500 in good running condition.  I'm eyeing a 4.2 liter V8 allroad currently that puts down 300 horsies.

[pontoontodd]

You could apply the same suspension mod technique to an Audi allroad, couldn't you?  The damn allroads have this adjustable air suspenion that is expensive to replace when it goes out, so you can find the damn things for $1500 in good running condition.  I'm eyeing a 4.2 liter V8 allroad currently that puts down 300 horsies.

 

I don't see why not, but I don't know much about those cars.

[pontoontodd]

As mentioned earlier, replaced the alternator with a Subaru reman.

Also swapped a different power steering pump on.  The one that's been on the car offers very little assist at idle.  This one is much better.

 

 

I've had these KC lights on for a while now.  They're a spot pattern and I put a set of cheap HID conversions in them.  They have amazing range, probably 1/4 mile, but very focused.  I have them aimed slightly to each side of center.  One issue I had at first was that they would slowly drop down while off roading.  I think after I cranked down the adjustment bolts they stayed put, but just in case I added these long bolts underneath so I can fine tune the vertical aiming and they won't drop down.

 

 

These are wired into the fog lights since those died the first time we took this thing off road, but the switch and wiring were all conveniently in place.  The HIDs even plugged right into the stock fog light plugs, although the polarity was reversed.  The downside of that is that the fog lights only come on with the low beams, the opposite of what I want.  I have seen how tos on making the fog lights work regardless of hi/lo beam switching, but I'd rather have them switch on and off with the high beams for highway driving.  So I figured that out, fortunately the Haynes manual has fairly accurate color coded wiring diagrams of these circuits.  Basically had to cut the yellow/blue wire from the fog light switch and splice a wire into the plug end of it.  This is the pin looking at the wiring harness plug:

 

-      -

- - - X

 

Ran that to the plug for the hi/lo switch under the dash.  Spliced into the red/yellow wire on that end.  These pictures aren't very good but hopefully you get the idea.

 

 

 

Now you can turn the HIDs on and off with the fog light switch and they only come on when the high beams are on.

 

 

So, more questions:

 

Anybody know where I can get longer tie rods?

 

The ignition coil has been humming for a long time, I'm thinking I should replace it, and then I'd have a spare.  Any brand better than any other?

 

The biggest problem with the long travel struts is still that they are sticking.  I think at least part of the problem is that the springs are inline with the strut rather than angled toward the contact patch.  So I'm looking for some springs about 3.5 or 4" ID, 14" long, and 200#/in spring rate.  Anyone know of a good spring size chart or a place that winds good springs for $50-$100 each?

[Cyfun]

I don't see why not, but I don't know much about those cars.

 

Considering they're factory designed to have adjustable ride height while maintaining proper wheel alignment, seems like they'd be great candidates for some long-travel shocks.  Here's a pic of the front control arm.  As you can see, the strut is more like a big coilover shock, as it just pivots on the lower control arm and has no say in the car's alignment.

 

 

And here are the upper ball joints:

 

[pontoontodd]

Looks like a great candidate for long travel.  Have you tried cycling the suspension with the shocks off to see how much travel it could have and what's limiting it?

 

Considering they're factory designed to have adjustable ride height while maintaining proper wheel alignment, seems like they'd be great candidates for some long-travel shocks.  Here's a pic of the front control arm.  As you can see, the strut is more like a big coilover shock, as it just pivots on the lower control arm and has no say in the car's alignment.

[pontoontodd]

I just found this, looks like it will be very helpful finding springs:

http://www.moogproblemsolver.com/moog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/MOOG_Coil_Springs_Spec.pdf

 

This Moog distributor has a sortable version which is even more useful:

http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/universal_coil_springs.asp

 

They also have this outer tie rod size chart:

http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/universal_outer_tie_rod_ends.asp

stock is ES3712

 

And this amazingly useful inner tie rod size chart:

http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/universal_inner_tie_rods.asp

stock is EV473, looks like I just have to decide how much longer I want the tie rods.

[Cyfun]

Looks like a great candidate for long travel.  Have you tried cycling the suspension with the shocks off to see how much travel it could have and what's limiting it?

 

I don't yet have an allroad, and as luck would have it, managed to sell my A6 wagon two days ago after having it up for sale for 4 months, lol.

 

The stock allroad airbags shocks are apparently very prone to going out, and if one goes out, you have to replace the pair, which is about $1500.  A lot of people just slap on some non-adjustable shocks, which are still about $150 each.  In any case, you can occasionally find allroads around for sale with blown airbags for under $2000.  They usually have the 2.7 liter turbo, which has 250bhp, but some have the 4.2 liter v8, which puts down 300bhp.  And of course they all have Torsen differentials, which use worm gears for spider gears to send power to the wheel with the most traction without having to rely on reactionary traction control systems.  The Audis from the late 80s and early 90s often came with factory locking diffs, too, so it might be possible to slap one of those on.  In any case, I'm very curious to see how they do in extreme offroad conditions.

[Uberoo]

The biggest problem with the oddis is they don't have a low range,any they are also more expensive VW's with many of the same problems.

 

However, with the torsion limited slips it might do ok offroad,assuming that you never lift a tire because it needs resistance from both tires to work,lift a tire and your back to open diff.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Uberoo

[Cyfun]

The biggest problem with the oddis is they don't have a low range,any they are also more expensive VW's with many of the same problems.

 

However, with the torsion limited slips it might do ok offroad,assuming that you never lift a tire because it needs resistance from both tires to work,lift a tire and your back to open diff.

 

Outbacks don't have low-range, either.  And depending on the model and engine, they're actually cheaper than VWs.  I'm a big fan of the 2.8 liter V6.  It has 200hp, no fucky turbos, and is surprisingly easy to work on.  Plus, they get about 27mpg highway, which is comparable to an OBW.

 

What it boils down to, though, is that all the affordable Outbacks in my area are from the generation where headgasket issues were inevitable.  There are almost no newer Outbacks for sale, but the ones that are start around $6000.  Whereas my 2000 A6 quattro wagon, with 150k miles, climate control, moon roof, headlight washers, Bose factory stereo, heated seats front and back, power locks, and power windows that will automatically go up or down with a brief button press, and all the other nifty features, was only $2300.  And these cars are often seen with well over 250k miles.  So when you compare apples to apples, having headgaskets done on an Outback every 100k miles is more expensive than timing belts on an Audi.  And if you yourself are mechanically inclined, you can do a lot of the labor yourself, as there are tons of guides and videos online for Audis.

 

Yeah, the torsen diffs do require some resistance, and if you articulate too far, it will just spin.  However, this can be somewhat resolved by a simple tap of the brake pedal.  Also, one of the points of installing long-travel suspension is to improve articulation.  But considering these cars have a pretty nifty ABS and traction control system, the traction control might take care of that for me.  And if not, these ECUs can often be modded to do such things.

 

However, I'm like OP, and wanting to build a car more for medium speed offroading and rallying, so the lack of low-range and articulation isn't an issue.  I mainly wanna be able to catch a little air, and hit big ruts at 50mph.  Besides, a 300 horse V8 helps make up for lack of low-range.  If I do end up making this car, imma definitely go follow the local Jeep club sometime, just to see for how long I can keep up.

[bratman18]

All Outback have 2.5 issues. Not just a certain generation. And if they are done correctly the first time, they won't need to be done again, let alone every 100k.

[pontoontodd]

Outbacks don't have low-range, either.  And depending on the model and engine, they're actually cheaper than VWs.  I'm a big fan of the 2.8 liter V6.  It has 200hp, no fucky turbos, and is surprisingly easy to work on.  Plus, they get about 27mpg highway, which is comparable to an OBW.

 

What it boils down to, though, is that all the affordable Outbacks in my area are from the generation where headgasket issues were inevitable.  There are almost no newer Outbacks for sale, but the ones that are start around $6000.  Whereas my 2000 A6 quattro wagon, with 150k miles, climate control, moon roof, headlight washers, Bose factory stereo, heated seats front and back, power locks, and power windows that will automatically go up or down with a brief button press, and all the other nifty features, was only $2300.  And these cars are often seen with well over 250k miles.  So when you compare apples to apples, having headgaskets done on an Outback every 100k miles is more expensive than timing belts on an Audi.  And if you yourself are mechanically inclined, you can do a lot of the labor yourself, as there are tons of guides and videos online for Audis.

 

Yeah, the torsen diffs do require some resistance, and if you articulate too far, it will just spin.  However, this can be somewhat resolved by a simple tap of the brake pedal.  Also, one of the points of installing long-travel suspension is to improve articulation.  But considering these cars have a pretty nifty ABS and traction control system, the traction control might take care of that for me.  And if not, these ECUs can often be modded to do such things.

 

However, I'm like OP, and wanting to build a car more for medium speed offroading and rallying, so the lack of low-range and articulation isn't an issue.  I mainly wanna be able to catch a little air, and hit big ruts at 50mph.  Besides, a 300 horse V8 helps make up for lack of low-range.  If I do end up making this car, imma definitely go follow the local Jeep club sometime, just to see for how long I can keep up.

 

Definitely interested to hear how the Audi works out if you start pushing it.  I would think they're less reliable and parts are harder to get and more expensive than Subarus.

Like you say, most Subarus don't have lockers, low range, or a lot of suspension travel either.  The low end torque of a V8 would help a lot.

 

How long you can keep up with Jeeps???  Even with completely stock suspension, I've never been with anyone in a Jeep who will even go half the speed we go in Subarus because the Jeep ride quality is terrible.  They can crawl much better, but that's a different story.

 

Second bratman on the headgaskets.  Everyone I've talked to says you might have to replace them once, but not every 100k.

[Cyfun]

Definitely interested to hear how the Audi works out if you start pushing it. I would think they're less reliable and parts are harder to get and more expensive than Subarus.

Like you say, most Subarus don't have lockers, low range, or a lot of suspension travel either. The low end torque of a V8 would help a lot.

 

How long you can keep up with Jeeps??? Even with completely stock suspension, I've never been with anyone in a Jeep who will even go half the speed we go in Subarus because the Jeep ride quality is terrible. They can crawl much better, but that's a different story.

 

Second bratman on the headgaskets. Everyone I've talked to says you might have to replace them once, but not every 100k.

In my experience with German cars, they mind be slightly more expensive, but you save money in the long-run because they're more reliable. They're basically like Japanese cars, cept slightly more overbuilt, but sometimes more complicated, which is where people tend to run into problems: more features mean there's more to potentially go wrong. And there are plenty of specific models and engines to stay away from. The VW 1.8 turbo, for example. They're decent engines, but a pain to work on, especially if the turbo needs work. That's why you can find 15 year old Golfs, Passats, and Audi A4s for $1500: that's their book value because they're kind of money pits. The nonturbo engines aren't too bad, though. The 2.8 and 3.0 V6's are amazing. You just need to maintain them regularly and properly. Whereas with a Japanese car, you can abuse them a bit more, stretch out a few oil changes and timing belt service intervals.

 

What sold me on Audis, though, is their performance in the snow. Modern Subarus have a reactionary all-wheel drive. They wait until AFTER your front wheels start slipping, and then only send 30% of the power to the back. Whereas Audis with their Torsen and Haldex diffs, they put the power exactly where it needs to go. The next time the weather turns to spoob, go find a Quattro to test drive and you'll see what I mean. Besides that, they're wicked comfortable and easy to drive. One advantage for a tall motherfucker like me is that the steering wheel both tilts and telescopes, so I can find a comfortable steering position without feeling like I'm in a sardine can. And the heated seats will roast your rump roast, even in below zero temps. But what really spoils me is the automatic climate control. Being able to just punch in a temperature and never have to fiddle with the HVAC controls again really spoils you.

 

Which brings me to another thing I like about German cars: the sort of people that own them tend to maintain them really well, and not abuse them. Doctors, lawyers, and such. Plus, when they sell them, they don't try to get every damn penny back out. Which is also why I love BMWs. But they absolutely suck in the snow. Hell, the reason I got my GLW is cause one winter it took me 2 hours to make the last couple blocks home in my 525i.

 

As for the Sooby 2.5 headgaskets, where I live, it's common for cars to make it 200k, and some even 300k. I've known a few people with Outbacks who pushed them that far, but are on their second or third headgasket. But as I tell all my friends who consider buying an Outback: Get an early 1990s Legacy with the phase 1 EJ22. And if you want something nicer with more power, find an Audi A6.

 

Jeeps and Soobys really are apples and oranges. Those fuckers do indeed suck doing any more than 10mph. They're only good for rock crawling and really technical spoob. But of course everybody swears by them, and sinks $20k into their rock buggy that sees maybe 20 hours of use per year. My GLW could keep up okay, was great on trails, and AMAZING in muddy ruts, but sure did suck when one wheel lifted. I really just wanna see how an Audi would compare to a Sooby or a Jeep in a true offroad situation.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Cyfun

[pontoontodd]

One of the issues we had the last time out with the long travel was that the hoses were getting crimped in the mounts in the front and leaking.  Since the strut swings forward and back quite a bit when you steer, it was pinching the hoses.  Slotted the mounting plates, got smaller hoses and adapter fittings, hopefully this solves the problem.

 

 

 

 

Reinstalled with the smaller hose.  You can see it is still a very close fit.

 

[pontoontodd]

Tried this to solve the sticking problem.  First cut spiral grooves in the bushings.

 

 

 

Then installed the seals, packed with grease, and sprayed on some graphite:

 

 

That didn't seem to make any difference.  I have some larger OD springs I'm working on spring perches for that I can mount at an angle, hopefully that will reduce the binding.