long travel Outbacks or making Subarus faster and more reliable offroad

[Cyfun]

I vote you find a whole H6 car to convert, rather than trying to swap.  Swaps always end up being more work than you expect. Plus, if you cannibalize this car, then you're down a car.  And if you want to get some money back out of it, could always sell it.  Kinda curious what it'd go for.

[pontoontodd]

I vote you find a whole H6 car to convert, rather than trying to swap.  Swaps always end up being more work than you expect. Plus, if you cannibalize this car, then you're down a car.  And if you want to get some money back out of it, could always sell it.  Kinda curious what it'd go for.

 

Well if someone offered me a decent amount of money for the Outback that would certainly change my thinking!

[pontoontodd]

Made a skidplate for the front end, I'll post up pictures of that soon.

 

My friend drove his Forester over and we were going to replace the head gaskets over the weekend.  It's been overheating on him when he tries to drive it on the highway and he has to keep adding coolant.  There were all sorts of bubbles coming up in the overflow one time we looked and it was warmed up and running.

 

We took the engine out and got the heads off in a few hours.  Block and heads seemed flat and we didn't see any cracks.  Head gaskets were missing at least half the rubber on one side though.  He took the oil pan off and discovered some metal shavings on the oil pump pickup.  They looked like little flakes of bearing material.  We decided to tear the engine down completely.  The rear main bearing was definitely coming apart and the other ones didn't look great, but probably still OK.  The rod bearings were about half worn to the copper and were stuck to the journals.  I'm surprised none of them spun.  Crank's still pretty smooth but no one in town has bearings.  He's going to order some and we'll get it back together.  He already has a new timing belt and clutch disc we'll put in.  The toothed idler spins more freely than the smooth ones, but it seems like that's normal, is it?  Anything else we should do or check while we're in there?

[Cyfun]

Put on some EJ22 heads while you're at it.

[pontoontodd]

We made a big skidplate for the front of my car a couple weeks ago.  Started with a piece of 1/16" 4130 normalized, I think it was 36" x 42".

 

Cardboard template my friend made up for one side:

 

 

Trimmed the edges and made some cuts:

 

 

Bent and tack welded:

 

 

 

Bent the rear edge up so it would be less likely to catch on things when going backwards and add some rigidity.

 

Check to make sure the bends look good:

 

 

Spacers for both sides of the crossmember just outside the exhaust and mounting tabs:

 

 

One of the mounting tabs welded in place to the tube that runs from the front to the swaybar mount:

 

 

Drilled mounting holes for the above tabs and spacers and fully welded the seams on both sides.  Trimmed the overlap from those seams and welds.  It is extremely rigid with all the bends even though it's just 1/16" steel.

 

 

 

 

A little spacer that bolts onto the rear of the crossmember to keep the skidplate off the exhaust:

 

 

Welded and painted:

 

 

Installed:

 

 

Skidplate painted:

 

 

 

Here you can see the aluminum spacer holding the skidpan just below the exhaust:

 

 

side shot:

 

 

Fully installed, tucked behind the smaller steel panel that goes under the bumper:

 

 

[Cyfun]

That's an excellent skidplate, I may copy your design a bit.  By the way, there are about half a dozen baja races in Montana during the summer.  I talked to a few of the organizers about running Subarus, and they seemed pretty interested.  Next year, if you make it out this way to race, let me know, and half of the spectators will end up being Soobie guys.

[pontoontodd]

That's an excellent skidplate, I may copy your design a bit.  By the way, there are about half a dozen baja races in Montana during the summer.  I talked to a few of the organizers about running Subarus, and they seemed pretty interested.  Next year, if you make it out this way to race, let me know, and half of the spectators will end up being Soobie guys.

 

Thanks, it's sort of based on what ferp did.

 

I just looked it up, are you talking about the YORR series?  Do you know what the courses are like?  Sounds like the longest one is 34 miles.  Looked like 100-200 mile races on their website.  From the few videos I looked at the courses looked fun but smooth.  But it always looks smoother on video than in person.  Depending on where in Montana it's at, it might be closer than west Texas.  Isn't it usually cold in early May in Montana?

 

There are some races in Colorado we're looking into.  Some of the guys at the V2R also suggested running a desert race where they run the slower classes in the morning and the trophy trucks and class 1 buggies in the afternoon.  That way you don't get run over and the course isn't as torn up.  Plan is to do at least one next year before the V2R to put some hard, fast miles on the car.

[Cyfun]

Yeah, the YORR.  I haven't seen all the courses first-hand, but most of them do seem like medium speed stuff.  The Columbus one I guess is pretty brutal, though, but it did have a VW buggy class that was able to tackle it.  As for the spring weather, I looked it up, and last May it ranged from 40 to 85.  But I'm the sort of person who motorcycles in single digit weather, so above 40 is pretty warm in my book.

 

Also, was gonna say if you do the Vegas to Reno race again, I might be interested in running a support vehicle.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Cyfun

[pontoontodd]

Yeah, the YORR.  I haven't seen all the courses first-hand, but most of them do seem like medium speed stuff.  The Columbus one I guess is pretty brutal, though, but it did have a VW buggy class that was able to tackle it.  As for the spring weather, I looked it up, and last May it ranged from 40 to 85.  But I'm the sort of person who motorcycles in single digit weather, so above 40 is pretty warm in my book.

 

Also, was gonna say if you do the Vegas to Reno race again, I might be interested in running a support vehicle.

 

Sounds like the course near Columbus is 8.5 miles and 6-8 laps depending on class?  Not sure that would be worth the trip for us.  I was thinking the 200 miler, but it sounds that course is smoother.  Our thought is to hit one or two that are as long and rough as possible early next year to really put the car to the test.  One of the courses in Texas is supposedly really rough and they usually do a 200 or 250 mile race there.

 

I'm just thinking if it's cold we wouldn't get a decent test of the cooling system.

 

I definitely appreciate the offer to help at V2R.  I don't think there's any way we could put together a group of volunteers to do what Baja Pits does.  They have mechanics at every pit with fuel, tools, food, water, welders, etc.  Also, there are no chase trucks allowed on the course.  It would actually be a decent race to watch if you picked out a couple spots to hang out at for a couple hours each.

[Cyfun]

Sounds like the course near Columbus is 8.5 miles and 6-8 laps depending on class?  Not sure that would be worth the trip for us.  I was thinking the 200 miler, but it sounds that course is smoother.  Our thought is to hit one or two that are as long and rough as possible early next year to really put the car to the test.  One of the courses in Texas is supposedly really rough and they usually do a 200 or 250 mile race there.

 

I'm just thinking if it's cold we wouldn't get a decent test of the cooling system.

 

I definitely appreciate the offer to help at V2R.  I don't think there's any way we could put together a group of volunteers to do what Baja Pits does.  They have mechanics at every pit with fuel, tools, food, water, welders, etc.  Also, there are no chase trucks allowed on the course.  It would actually be a decent race to watch if you picked out a couple spots to hang out at for a couple hours each.

 

The Columbus course is adds up to about 100 miles, but it is a 2 day event, so unless you break something serious, you could get two days out of it.  But yeah, it's a bit of a ways for just one crappy race.  The rest of the races here are spread out across the summer and the state, and even if if you lived here, the drive to each track is still like 8 hours each way.

[pontoontodd]

The Columbus course is adds up to about 100 miles, but it is a 2 day event, so unless you break something serious, you could get two days out of it.  But yeah, it's a bit of a ways for just one crappy race.  The rest of the races here are spread out across the summer and the state, and even if if you lived here, the drive to each track is still like 8 hours each way.

 

That would be a long drive for a 100 mile race.  I'll check out their schedule next year, whether we go there, CO, or TX, it's a long drive.  Thanks for the heads up on that series, it's good to have options.

There are some 100 mile woods enduros much closer to home that we might be able to run, but they usually don't allow cars with glass.  And it's really not the same as a desert race.

[pontoontodd]

Wife and I went camping over the weekend with the Outback.  We were on a lot of gravel roads but nothing challenging this time.  Before we headed back the engine started running really rough and the car was bucking violently.  I unplugged the MAF sensor and it ran OK the rest of the weekend.  A little rough and stalled occasionally but we made it home fine.  So thanks again to Uberoo for that tip!  I didn't have the spare with me and the only parts store we stopped at wanted $200 and had to wait a few days to get it.  I replaced it with a used one when I got home and it ran fine today.

 

I had good luck today at the pick & pull.  Got a mass air flow sensor, wiper fluid bottle with pumps and hoses, gauge cluster, three wheels, and some little pieces.

 

Anyone know how to roll forward an odometer easily?  I found this post:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/38259-speedometerodometer-quit-cruise-still-works-vss-or-speedo-head/?do=findComment&comment=308126

but it really doesn't explain what to do.

[pontoontodd]

Also, any thoughts on the MAF sensor?  The one that just failed was a Delphi that I put in just before the Vegas to Reno, so it has seen some dust but has only been on the car about three months.

[ferp420]

Nice skid plate I just caught up on this thread I vote for building a second car just replace the parts you pull out of the one you have now and use the parts from the new one to put the outback together u only need one race car and one screw around/prerunner

[Cyfun]

Also, any thoughts on the MAF sensor?  The one that just failed was a Delphi that I put in just before the Vegas to Reno, so it has seen some dust but has only been on the car about three months.

 

Might be time to shell out for a new one.  Oreilly's has one with a 1 year warranty, but Autozone has a lifetime warranty one for $210.  And there are a few on Rockauto with lifetime warranties for around $100, but then have such terrible customer service, if you ever had to have it replaced, they'd probably screw you over.

 

By the way, was watching the auto auction the other day, saw an 06 Subaru H6 come through.  Almost bid on it, but it went for like $1500.  Dunno if there are any good auto auctions down your way, but if you want a parts car that still has its engine, that's the way to to go.  Personally, I still think you should just find a complete H6 and build a new car, keeping this one to either use or sell.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Cyfun

[jf1sf5]

Very nice skid plate. Am impressed with the angle you can get with oem cv axles. I upgraded to Heri HD cv axles but they are not very HD though they give much more angle than oem. What cv axles do you use ?

[pontoontodd]

Might be time to shell out for a new one.  Oreilly's has one with a 1 year warranty, but Autozone has a lifetime warranty one for $210.  And there are a few on Rockauto with lifetime warranties for around $100, but then have such terrible customer service, if you ever had to have it replaced, they'd probably screw you over.

 

By the way, was watching the auto auction the other day, saw an 06 Subaru H6 come through.  Almost bid on it, but it went for like $1500.  Dunno if there are any good auto auctions down your way, but if you want a parts car that still has its engine, that's the way to to go.  Personally, I still think you should just find a complete H6 and build a new car, keeping this one to either use or sell.

 

That Delphi MAF sensor that lasted a few months was new from Rock Auto.  I didn't realize it has a 12 month warranty, thanks for mentioning that, I'll see if I can get a replacement.

 

More on the H6 cars soon, I'm going for the 01-04, they're cheaper, seem to be more common, and sometime between 2005 and 2008 they switched to CAN bus which probably makes engine and trans swaps much more difficult.

[pontoontodd]

Very nice skid plate. Am impressed with the angle you can get with oem cv axles. I upgraded to Heri HD cv axles but they are not very HD though they give much more angle than oem. What cv axles do you use ?

 

I've always wanted to try a set of the Heri axles but can't seem to find someone who actually sells them.  Do they seem weaker than OEM?  Curious if/how/where you broke them.

 

Mainly we just leave the stock axles in the cars.  We've replaced quite a few boots now, usually when they just start to leak or tear.  I have been replacing my front axles as they go bad with the FWD early 90's Legacy axles, but they're hard to find now.  They had bigger CVs and center bars.  But I think the only CV we've actually broken has been an outboard cage in one of those FWD axles. 

 

Seems like the travel is more limited by inner CV plunge than the angles.

[jf1sf5]

I haven't broken my Heri axles yet but they get a lot of play, like 4-5°. The concept is very good but quality is average. I bought them at Advanced Auto Parts through a friend living in Colorado 2 years ago. I'll try to find some FWD Legacy axles here in Switzerland.

[TryingToRally]

Im really interested in doing this to my 96 Outback, i looked for what shocks you got and the farthest i got was fox universal factory series, although im not sure if those are even it. What im curious about is what are the main things i am going to have to do to get long travel suspension like this. do you just extend all the suspension components, get some shocks and springs and call it a day. I want to do this but theres no way in hell i could do it without advice from this build. 

[pontoontodd]

Im really interested in doing this to my 96 Outback, i looked for what shocks you got and the farthest i got was fox universal factory series, although im not sure if those are even it. What im curious about is what are the main things i am going to have to do to get long travel suspension like this. do you just extend all the suspension components, get some shocks and springs and call it a day. I want to do this but theres no way in hell i could do it without advice from this build. 

 

We did make longer front control arms, but you wouldn't have to.  Rear links are all stock.

 

The struts involved a lot of fabrication and machining.  They are inverted struts.  I know this is a long thread, but you can either look back through it or look up inverted struts to get the idea.  We did start with 2" smooth bodied Fox reservoir shocks but we had to machine the shafts and do some other things.  You can buy long travel inverted struts from a few companies who sell them for rally racing. 

 

We are planning on making a few sets fairly soon.  I've been getting quotes on custom springs.  I want to make new housings with a better bushing setup for this car, and we'll probably make a set for my friend's Forester and at least an extra set of fronts for a second gen Outback once I start on that.  So we could make you a set, I'd have them professionally welded and painted, but even making enough parts for four or five cars they'd be $4000-$5000 for a set of four struts.

Edited November 16, 2016 by pontoontodd

[TryingToRally]

Why did you have to machine them? I could fab up the things to mount them i just cant find the freakin struts or springs you used anywhere.

I was on foxs website and all i could find was a thousand of the same looking shocks, i looked for specifically 11" travel and couldnt find anything

Edited November 17, 2016 by TryingToRally

[pontoontodd]

Why did you have to machine them? I could fab up the things to mount them i just cant find the freakin struts or springs you used anywhere.

I was on foxs website and all i could find was a thousand of the same looking shocks, i looked for specifically 11" travel and couldnt find anything

 

They're inverted struts.  We made housings that bolt to the spindles.  Those have bushings in them for the shock bodies to ride in.  We made upper mounts to adapt the shock top mount to the car body and provide a spring perch.  It's not a bolt on, order it from a catalog situation.  Look at post 333 and 334 (page 14) to get an idea of what I'm talking about, or look up inverted struts.

[TryingToRally]

 im thinking something like this  http://www.bilsteinus.com/products/truck-off-road/bilstein-m-9100-rock-crawler/ and some high travel springs might work, although i need to figure how the max amount of travel/lift i can go before i start tearing up the cv axles. i also wouldnt know what spring rates to go with. I need some guidance  am i getting on the right track?

[pontoontodd]

 im thinking something like this  http://www.bilsteinus.com/products/truck-off-road/bilstein-m-9100-rock-crawler/ and some high travel springs might work, although i need to figure how the max amount of travel/lift i can go before i start tearing up the cv axles. i also wouldnt know what spring rates to go with. I need some guidance  am i getting on the right track?

 

Those are similar to some of the shocks Fox offers.  The basic problem is that you can't replace struts with shocks.  You could try to mount the shock body to the spindle and mount the rod to the car body, but you'll probably end up bending the shock rod.  Also with the springs inline with the shock you'll have a lot of binding and friction.  There are various aftermarket struts for these cars, some of them offer more travel than stock, some are pretty cheap.  I honestly don't know enough about any of them to recommend a brand.  We've thought about trying them but decided to make our own.

 

Did you look back on this thread or look up inverted struts to see how they work?  Not trying to be rude, but I think if you look back at this thread you should able to figure out what we did.

 

The spring rates we're using now are fairly close to stock, but I'd like to go stiffer, mainly for a little more ride height.  I've gotten some decent quotes on custom wound coil springs.  I'd like to buy something off the shelf but the only spring chart I can find is MOOG.

 

The travel/lift we're running doesn't seem to be wearing out CV axles too quickly.  It probably only sits 2" higher than stock.  We're running more droop than stock but that doesn't happen often, and when it does there's little to no load on the tire, so it doesn't seem to cause problems.