long travel Outbacks or making Subarus faster and more reliable offroad

[pontoontodd]

On 12/8/2022 at 12:10 PM, slammo said:

Just my opinion, I think you should do the 6MT/R180 swap first and drive the car with the 2.2 and low range for a while before tearing it apart for the 3.6.

Can you share a pic of the new bumper with the hood down and the grille in place?

That might make sense but I when has that ever guided my decisions?  I really want to get started on the 3.6 swap.  Should be picking one up next week, figure it makes sense to just swap the whole engine and trans together.  Speaking of which, gotta get a flywheel and clutch, any advice on those?  Figuring stockish STI would be best.

For that matter, anyone happen to know if Forester pedals will work?  Figure I'll get STI master, hose, and slave.

Will try to remember to get a bumper pic for you, will probably be fabbing on that more tomorrow.

On 12/8/2022 at 6:49 PM, el_freddo said:

We don’t get vents or scoops on NA models over here so I don’t know if they’re plugged or have air ducting under them. 
Vents would probably help dispel some heat as they would help with creating a Venturi effect at speed which would help with creating the low pressure zone you want in the engine bay to draw air through the radiator. Plugging the scoop would help too I reckon if it’s not ducted already. 

Cheers 

Bennie

The vents and scoop have solid sheet metal bolted under them, I don't think they flow any air stock.

11 hours ago, Numbchux said:

I don't think that style vent would offer much in the way of cooling. Maybe at slow speed....but that's probably it.

There are many factory and aftermarket options that fit there that are more shaped to help create some negative pressure above the vent while moving that would likely have a bigger effect.

Then again, reversing the scoop would likely have a much bigger effect, if you don't have a TMIC or intake right below it.

Any vent options in particular you'd recommend?

I don't expect to have any cooling problems but might experiment with unblocking the vents and/or scoop at some point.

Finally took the diff stubs to heat treat.  Made some for R160 and some for R180 for using the female front CV axles in the rear.

Figure you guys might want to see a little of how the sausage is made.  Billet knuckle fixture.

Ready for op4.

op4 finished

Made fixture to fit milling table and fourth axis.

Got it all set up on the fourth axis to do the side holes today but didn't quite get to making chips before I had to leave.

[pontoontodd]

Finished machining the first billet knuckle.  No major problems, went as well as I could have hoped.

With caliper, wheel bearing, disc, and ABS sensor bolted on.

Edit: Just noticed I first started designing these almost two years ago now.  We 3D printed the first prototypes over 20 months ago.  Didn't realize they've been in the works that long.  Thanks again to slammo for helping with a cleaner more compact design.

 

Some pictures of the bumper, most of the fitting is done now.  Ran out of 1" square tubing so we stopped here.  Got the tow bar mounts done, barely visible under the main beam.  Ran some tubes from the radiator support back to the swaybar mounts, barely visible.  Ordered some 1.25" receiver tubing but they sent 2".  Even says 1.25" on the shrink wrap but it's definitely not.  So we'll still have to add those, planning on having one in the center and one on each side like we did the white Outback.  Waiting until we get the EZ36 in to make the engine skid.

Might be getting engine, driveshaft, and diff this week.  Might order a Haltech today.

Edited December 12, 2022 by pontoontodd

[slammo]

I understand why it is where it is, but that would look a lot better with the whole horizontal beam moved up so it only sits a quarter inch below the fenders, lights, and grille. Attach the beam to the top of the frame inserts, rather than the front?

😉

Edited December 12, 2022 by slammo

[pontoontodd]

58 minutes ago, slammo said:

I understand why it is where it is, but that would look a lot better with the whole horizontal beam moved up so it only sits a quarter inch below the fenders, lights, and grille. Attach the beam to the top of the frame inserts, rather than the front?

😉

It'd look better with the stock plastic bumper.

As you know I'm putting it that low to fit light bars and get more air to the radiator.

[pontoontodd]

Billet knuckle vs stock knuckle

Stock knuckle with wheel bearing weighs 14#.

Billet knuckle with wheel bearing weighs 19#.

Bare billet knuckle weighs 13#.

We kinda knew this up front but after seeing them in person compared to the stock knuckles, aluminum would almost certainly be strong enough with this boxed design.  Would require steel sleeves for the strut bolts and long bolt but the machining would go a lot faster.

The brakes will probably be heavier than stock and CV axle will definitely be heavier but I think a ~10# unsprung weight increase per rear corner will be worth it.

Edited December 13, 2022 by pontoontodd

[slammo]

On 12/31/2020 at 10:36 AM, pontoontodd said:

Used photogrammetry to get the mockup rear knuckle on a computer.

http://www.franavehicles.com/subaru/dpc1.jpg

http://www.franavehicles.com/subaru/dpc4.jpg

http://www.franavehicles.com/subaru/dpc5.jpg

I didn't do a good enough job to get a really clean model out of it but it gave me a decent starting point. 

http://www.franavehicles.com/subaru/ccobj.jpg

Measured all the hole locations later to make them accurate.  Designed this in CAD to make it as boxed in / gusseted as possible but not super heavy.

http://www.franavehicles.com/subaru/7208I.jpg

Stock rear knuckle bare is nine pounds, this one should be about 14 pounds.  I think it will be a lot stronger.  The main point though is to get bolt on wheel bearings (same as front).  Also with some diff stub adapters we can use the big female front CV axles which are stronger and we won't have to carry as many spares.  It's also designed to use the same front rotors we normally use and a caliper with a lever for parking brake.  Z is going to 3D print a couple so we can test fit them before making them out of steel.

 

Billet knuckle looks great. It's come a long way!

[travelvw]

10 hours ago, slammo said:

Billet knuckle looks great. It's come a long way!

YES! Heck of an upgrade!

K

[el_freddo]

Sweet work on that billet hub! Ditch the bearing to help reduce unsprung weight!  
 

Seriously, you could make a set of aluminium billet hubs and carry the steel billet hubs as back up if one cracks out bush. Best R&D there is. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[Numbchux]

On 12/10/2022 at 8:24 PM, pontoontodd said:

For that matter, anyone happen to know if Forester pedals will work?

 

Any vent options in particular you'd recommend?

I don't expect to have any cooling problems but might experiment with unblocking the vents and/or scoop at some point

 

Well, I've used an Impreza pedal box on a Forester.....

 

I did some googling for the ones I was thinking of, which have a little dam on the front edge, but I found many other designs. Our GC rally car had a JDM aluminum hood, but just stock OBS/RS vents (I don't remember if was had the plates under them or not) and scoop. But we also had a big aluminum radiator, FMIC, and didn't really ever have any cooling issues.

[pontoontodd]

15 hours ago, el_freddo said:

Sweet work on that billet hub! Ditch the bearing to help reduce unsprung weight!  
 

Seriously, you could make a set of aluminium billet hubs and carry the steel billet hubs as back up if one cracks out bush. Best R&D there is. 

Cheers 

Bennie

That would improve our sprung/unsprung weight ratio!  Think I'll just stick with steel and not worry about it.  Considering a wheel and tire assembly weighs 50#, 5-10# here or there isn't going to make a huge difference.

10 hours ago, Numbchux said:

 

Well, I've used an Impreza pedal box on a Forester.....

 

I did some googling for the ones I was thinking of, which have a little dam on the front edge, but I found many other designs. Our GC rally car had a JDM aluminum hood, but just stock OBS/RS vents (I don't remember if was had the plates under them or not) and scoop. But we also had a big aluminum radiator, FMIC, and didn't really ever have any cooling issues.

Good to know, B measured the Forester pedal box and seems like it will bolt right into the Impreza.

Not too worried about overheating either but I am tempted to unblock the hood vents when it gets hot out to see if it makes any difference.

[slammo]

Making the knuckles out of aluminum would be justifiable especially given that so many modern production cars have aluminum knuckles, but better safe than sorry for now. These are overbuilt for the application and that's fine with me.

FWIW keyboard experts have argued about unblocking hood vents for years. I think you'll be fine to remove them since a little rain coming in through the hood won't be out of the ordinary for what you'll be doing with this car.

[pontoontodd]

B did some work on the blue Forester.  It's been getting water on the passenger floorboards for a while now after (but not immediately during) rain or a trip to the car wash.  He cleaned out a couple drains near the blower motor, couldn't find anything obvious.  It seems to be leaking behind the rubber/foam on the firewall so it's hard to tell exactly where it's coming from.  Probably not the source of the leak but he also noticed the area in front of the passenger door hinges was mostly cracked.

He cleaned off the paint around the cracks.

I didn't get any pictures since I was working on my rear suspension but he got it all welded up and painted and put the fender back on.

He also replaced the tie rod and wheel bearing on that corner, they were both a little sloppy.

 

First issue I ran into trying to mock up the front CV axles in the rear for the billet knuckle was that the rear axles in this thing seem different than any other EJ Subaru rear axles I've run into.  This is the rear diff in the green Impreza:

All of our other R160s look like this, including the one in my red Impreza which is a year older:

Green Impreza axle on left, "normal" EJ rear axle on right.  I think the splines are the same, obviously the snapring groove is totally different, also the spiral cut bearing diameter from the green Impreza is smaller.

Just made sure I wasn't going crazy and took a look at some of my rear axle collection, they're all like the one on the right in the picture above.

Long story short I turned up a dummy stub for mockup instead of using one of the ones we'd made.  Ultimately it doesn't matter since I'm not going to use this diff but surprised me a little.  Need to swap the R180 in (finally got one) and put those stubs in to see how that works out.

 

Mocked up some new links with the billet knuckle.  Surprisingly it doesn't seem like the trailing arm should be much longer, just needs a big dog leg at the rear end to clear the wheel.  Need to mock that up better with some round tube bends.  This is with the Impreza trailing arm bracket and no spacer.  Lateral links need to be a little over an inch longer as expected.  Surprisingly the tire doesn't rub the wheel well much worse than it did before.  Camber is zero at ride height in the middle of the adjustment as best I can tell.

Caliper bolt and strut nut are close to each other but can be removed and installed independently.

Hard to tell in this picture but decent clearance even with the "big" front axle installed.  Boot needs a strap but there's plenty of room for it.

Edited December 20, 2022 by pontoontodd

[slammo]

Wonder if the R160 difference correlates to the one-bolt versus five-bolt design? 

(photos from Torq Locker's website)

 

Knuckle mockup looks great, super excited for that! Hopefully the trailing arm dog leg doesn't cause any issues, that's not a lot of clearance to the wheel lol.

 

 

 

[pontoontodd]

12 hours ago, slammo said:

Wonder if the R160 difference correlates to the one-bolt versus five-bolt design? 

(photos from Torq Locker's website)

 

Knuckle mockup looks great, super excited for that! Hopefully the trailing arm dog leg doesn't cause any issues, that's not a lot of clearance to the wheel lol.

 

 

 

From what little I can find the one bolt design is also known as VA type and was used in early Imprezas.  The five bolt design is also known as T type and supposedly uses bigger internals.  The rear diff in my red Impreza does have a date of Dec 2021 on it in paint marker, presumably from a junkyard.  So someone probably put a later diff and axles in it fairly recently.

 

That semi posterior trailing arm mockup does hit the wheel at full bump.  First step was just figuring out how long we want it and how much dogleg (in each direction).  Next step will be a closer to production mockup using some conduit bends.

[pontoontodd]

Finally got back to video editing.  Had almost run out of hard drive space and also spare time.  Video from our tip to the UP June 2021:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUrIVHmtNPc

Since we've been taking less video the last few years, this one's pretty short.  Also it's a lot less often we get out and stop to get video of jumps, whoops, hillclimbs, etc.  In those cases we usually just enjoy it and keep going these days.  But when we're stuck there's usually plenty of people standing around to document the process of getting unstuck.

Already have two more from 2021 basically edited down and have started on our last trip of 2021.  So I should be posting a lot of videos this winter.

[pontoontodd]

Made a jig and more sano mockup trailing arm.

Just used a piece of conduit we'd bent with B's tubing bender.  For the actual trailing arms I plan to use 1.5 x .120" 4130 and also turn the sleeve for the front bushing on the lathe.

Incredibly bad picture of it installed.

Initially hit the knuckle and lateral link at full droop.

Hit the wheel near full bump.

Modified the box clevis on the rear end for clearance.

So we've got a good plan on those now.

 

Side note for those of you living in foreign countries or states.  This is what our roads and parking lots look like in the winter time.  That's salt, not frost.

 

Picked up an EZ36 last week.

Kinda wished I'd tried harder to find one that's more complete though.  Junkyards of course normally sell them without accessories, so I bought those separate.  But that means I don't have the brackets for them.  Had a bracket that worked for the PS pump but the AC compressor is much different.  EZ36 on left, EZ30D on right.

Need to find a plug and pins to fit this.

I got a resurfaced STI flywheel and Exedy clutch kit and B assembled all that and chased the threads in the block.  You can see here where the junkyard cut the wires and coolant hose to the throttle body (I assume).  They probably did this when they removed the throttle body, didn't even think about them stealing that, now I need to get one of those.  Have heard of people using non Subaru.  Plan on drive by wire but open to suggestion if there's something better than Subaru since I have to buy one either way.

Got a trans mount, still need to install low range in the 6MT.  Got a driveshaft and R180.  Have engine mounts on order.  Got some shiny headers from Australia, last set they had, hopefully we can make them work.

[el_freddo]

That swing arm fabrication is awesome! Very neat and look like it’ll more than do the job! 

And wow, that salt is NUTS! I’m glad that in Australia it’s illegal to salt roads in our alpine area, it’s a small area that’s also in a very sensitive environment so salt is a no-go. Our Alpine area is not home to millions of ppl commuting etc either, it’s utilised for recreation skiing. Some Australians don’t even realise it snows I this country! 

I’m lucky to have worked at lived at Hotham Heights for two seasons. My favourite thing to was drive on snow packed roads - it’ll be something I may never get to experience again. 

On the EZ, weird they’d sell it as a complete engine without the throttle body! There’s a massive array of drive by wire throttle bodies available out there these days. I’d probably pick one that you know will be on the market for a long time that’s easily available. 

As for the plugs, got a self serve parts yard over your way to grab your own? Other option is to re-plug the engine loom to match an aftermarket ECU setup if you go down that path. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[Numbchux]

2 hours ago, el_freddo said:

I’m glad that in Australia it’s illegal to salt roads in our alpine area, it’s a small area that’s also in a very sensitive environment so salt is a no-go.

 

I wish that was the case, here. I live in a city on a hill that's above the largest freshwater lake in North America (Duluth, MN, Lake Superior) and they are constantly doing PR campaigns about contaminants in the ground water and storm drains getting into the lake, but they still salt the roads like that.

And it's illegal to use chains or studs because it damages the road surface.....but the roads suck anyway....

[travelvw]

Love it! I can't believe you bought headers; car is going to sound good, too. How about doing those head gaskets now while it's out of the car instead of later when it's in the car?

Looks like these cars need more bracing for the front a-pillar; same place that repeatedly cracked on the Outback? Does B's Forester have any bracing up front like a WRX?

K

[pontoontodd]

On 1/5/2023 at 7:13 AM, el_freddo said:

That swing arm fabrication is awesome! Very neat and look like it’ll more than do the job! 

And wow, that salt is NUTS! I’m glad that in Australia it’s illegal to salt roads in our alpine area, it’s a small area that’s also in a very sensitive environment so salt is a no-go. Our Alpine area is not home to millions of ppl commuting etc either, it’s utilised for recreation skiing. Some Australians don’t even realise it snows I this country! 

I’m lucky to have worked at lived at Hotham Heights for two seasons. My favourite thing to was drive on snow packed roads - it’ll be something I may never get to experience again. 

On the EZ, weird they’d sell it as a complete engine without the throttle body! There’s a massive array of drive by wire throttle bodies available out there these days. I’d probably pick one that you know will be on the market for a long time that’s easily available. 

As for the plugs, got a self serve parts yard over your way to grab your own? Other option is to re-plug the engine loom to match an aftermarket ECU setup if you go down that path. 

Cheers 

Bennie

 

6 hours ago, travelvw said:

Love it! I can't believe you bought headers; car is going to sound good, too. How about doing those head gaskets now while it's out of the car instead of later when it's in the car?

Looks like these cars need more bracing for the front a-pillar; same place that repeatedly cracked on the Outback? Does B's Forester have any bracing up front like a WRX?

K

That salt picture is definitely a worst case scenario but yeah it's bad.

I'm not too surprised they pulled the throttle body off, if you're replacing a blown up engine the one on it could probably be swapped over.  More pissed that they cut the wiring rather than unplugging that one connector.  I'd like to have as few splices as possible.

Know of any throttle bodies in particular that fit and are better in some way?

I can get the main car side harness plug here, they just listed it:

https://www.corsa-technic.com/item.php?item_id=1783

Headers weren't super expensive.  Supposedly +20ft-lbs through most of the RPM range.  Engine as expected didn't come with enough exhaust to work with so I was going to have to buy/make something either way. 

I'm going to hope for the best again on the head gaskets.  Yes 90% of the EZ30s we've bought have needed them but those engines are twice as old as this one.  Also it's quite a job.

It's too bad there's nothing solid under the top of the fender to bolt to, I've seen braces that bolt in there but it seems like that part of the body is super flimsy.  B's Forester does not have a U brace, that would probably help a ton.  For this car I'm planning on bracing the front crossmember to the trans crossmember like I did on the black Outback.

 

[slammo]

One of the subtle changes Subaru made from the first through third gen Imprezas was tying in the strut towers to the cowl/firewall.

First gen Impreza:

2nd gen Impreza:

Couldn't find a good pic of a 3rd gen Impreza engine bay, so here's a bad pic instead:

 

It may be worth welding in some sheet metal as a brace there so you add support to both sides of the strut towers. Would be worth doing while the engine is out; just have to avoid the fuel and brake lines that run through there.

Edited January 7, 2023 by slammo
word salad

[travelvw]

Lower 'frame' on the second gen pic is gusseted at the firewall; that certainly looks stronger. Good point.

K

Edited January 8, 2023 by travelvw

[pontoontodd]

On 1/7/2023 at 9:46 AM, slammo said:

2nd gen Impreza:

 

It may be worth welding in some sheet metal as a brace there so you add support to both sides of the strut towers. Would be worth doing while the engine is out; just have to avoid the fuel and brake lines that run through there.

OK, I didn't see those lower "gussets" at first but I like the idea.  Should be plenty of room there since I'm not running a turbo.  I really want to minimize the welding on this body as I think that's going to make it rust faster but will definitely take a look at mine and see what we can do.  Also reminds me it might be a good idea to do a strut tower brace that attaches to the pitch stop mount.  But maybe that's why the wiper arm on my black Outback keeps scraping the windshield when we beat on it?

[pontoontodd]

Haven't accomplished a lot in the last couple weeks, been sick and busy with other things.  Still need to get the throttle body sorted at a minimum before we put the engine in.  Will hopefully have engine mounts this week.

Biggest thing we accomplished was swapping in the R180.  Left to right, "one bolt" (earlier) R160, "five bolt" (later) R160, R180.  Some studs and plugs swapped over.

Definitely one good reason Subaru has a Lego reputation.  After swapping over those studs the R180 bolts right in.

Weights are 37# (1 bolt R160), 47# (5 bolt R160), 57# R180.  5 bolt R160 is definitely a 4.11 open diff, I assume the 1 bolt is open also but probably 3.7 or 3.9.  I was shocked how much weight difference there was between the R160s.
Had to trim one of the little diff mount brackets so it would sit flush on the R180.

While we had this out I cut the tuned mass damper (?) off.

Surprisingly only weighs 1#, seems heavier.  Thinking by adding 20# of rear diff we've ruined whatever NVH tuning that was supposed to accomplish.

STI driveshaft appears it will just bolt in.  Looks to be a little on the short side, anyone know if the splined part towards the rear is supposed to telescope?  There's definitely splines under the rubber cover but we couldn't get it to budge.

Looks like we need to make the rear lateral links a little longer than what we'd mocked up for the R160 but I think then they'd work with either diff.  Still need to machine the RR billet knuckle, started programming that the other day.

B and I also worked on putting a planetary low range in my other STI 6MT.  He swapped over the various reverse lockout parts, etc.  Unfortunately the rear output shaft has about .008" (.2mm) endplay so I need to get a thicker shim and swap that out.

[el_freddo]

I hang out for these updates!!

On 1/17/2023 at 5:01 AM, pontoontodd said:

Left to right, "one bolt" (earlier) R160, "five bolt" (later) R160, R180.

With the above, are you saying the one bolt came before the five bolt R160? Or is there and early and later version of the two diffs (that I don’t know about)? 

Asking as the five bolt came before the one bolt. I know the 1980 brumby/BRAT models run with the five bolt diff and you could bolt one any five bolt r160 into the back of them. 

The one bolt I believe appeared mid to late naughties, but I think the five bolt is still to be found in those years as well depending on which vehicle model you look at - I could be wrong though! 

Cheers 

Bennie