long travel Outbacks or making Subarus faster and more reliable offroad

[pontoontodd]

I avoid Vatozone like the plague, as they seem the least competent of the parts jockeys.  Oreillys tends to have a better selection of loaner tools, and I know for a fact they have those headgasket testers.  Otherwise, you can always buy the kit, it's like $30 online.

 

OReilly has one but it's $30 to rent it, and I think you have to pay for the fluid, so I'm just going to buy one.  I did pour in a bottle of coolant system cleaner and drove it for a few days, just flushed it out this morning.  No obvious flood of junk came out.  While it's drained I'm going to drill some holes in the thermostat.

 

Another thing we noticed after we got back is that the passenger side exhaust was crushed.

 

 

First I pried off the heat shields.

 

 

I cut a scrap of 1.75 x .120 4130 leftover from the cage to fit.  Should flow a little better.  Yes, I ground the flash out of the inside of the tube.

 

 

Tack welded it in while the exhaust was still on the car, took the exhaust off, finished welding it, and put it back on the car.

 

Edited April 23, 2016 by pontoontodd

[Cyfun]

They want $30 to rent it?  In my experience at O'Reillys, that's just a deposit, and when you bring the thing back, you get the money back.  But I can see how you'd still needa buy fluid.

 

I'm honestly surprised you hadn't smashed your exhaust sooner.  One mod I've been planning on is using a wrx turbo exhaust manifold that goes up between the engine and firewall, but instead of mounting a turbo, just piping it straight up out of the hood.

[Uberoo]

It might be worth reinforcing those crossmembers where your skidplate mounts to.They are already getting crushed.Use as much mounting area as possible to help distribute the load better.

[pontoontodd]

They want $30 to rent it?  In my experience at O'Reillys, that's just a deposit, and when you bring the thing back, you get the money back.  But I can see how you'd still needa buy fluid.

 

I'm honestly surprised you hadn't smashed your exhaust sooner.  One mod I've been planning on is using a wrx turbo exhaust manifold that goes up between the engine and firewall, but instead of mounting a turbo, just piping it straight up out of the hood.

 

You're probably right, and maybe I misunderstood, but it sounded like she was telling me it costs $30 to rent it.  It'd probably be handy to have one so I'll probably just buy one.

 

I'm surprised the exhaust is still attached to the car.  It hangs below everything else but seems to require very little maintenance.  We did crush the driver's side in the same spot as this about a year ago in Kentucky, I think I posted about that a few pages ago on this thread.

 

Why not just run a turbo and pipe the outlet straight up out of the hood?

[Uberoo]

NA subaru engines don't take kindly to more than a couple psi of boost.

[pontoontodd]

NA subaru engines don't take kindly to more than a couple psi of boost.

 

I was mostly joking, like why not get the WRX engine/turbo/etc and swap it all in?

[scalman]

OReilly has one but it's $30 to rent it, and I think you have to pay for the fluid, so I'm just going to buy one.  I did pour in a bottle of coolant system cleaner and drove it for a few days, just flushed it out this morning.  No obvious flood of junk came out.  While it's drained I'm going to drill some holes in the thermostat.

 

Another thing we noticed after we got back is that the passenger side exhaust was crushed.

 

 

 

First I pried off the heat shields.

 

 

 

I cut a scrap of 1.75 x .120 4130 leftover from the cage to fit.  Should flow a little better.  Yes, I ground the flash out of the inside of the tube.

 

 

 

Tack welded it in while the exhaust was still on the car, took the exhaust off, finished welding it, and put it back on the car.

 

 

i see thats some new oil pan protection. how it works there its enough? maybe you have pic of it ? looks simple enough 

[pontoontodd]

Finally got the video from our last race edited and posted on youtube.  It's not the greatest since we were focusing on finishing on time and couldn't really get video out on the course.

 

 

I'm still really happy we were able to drive the car that hard for over nine hours that day.

 

i see thats some new oil pan protection. how it works there its enough? maybe you have pic of it ? looks simple enough 

answered this question in your thread

[Cyfun]

I was mostly joking, like why not get the WRX engine/turbo/etc and swap it all in?

This might be more viable than you think. You can get an imported JDM STI engine, trans, wiring harness, and ECU for about $3k shipped. However, as you probably know, putting more power in that car will just make you break spoob left and right, not to mention it'd probably bump you out of the racing classes you've been running in. If anything, a frankenmotor would be ideal... but I can't remember if you did that already or not, lol.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Cyfun

[pontoontodd]

This might be more viable than you think. You can get an imported JDM STI engine, trans, wiring harness, and ECU for about $3k shipped. However, as you probably know, putting more power in that car will just make you break spoob left and right, not to mention it'd probably bump you out of the racing classes you've been running in. If anything, a frankenmotor would be ideal... but I can't remember if you did that already or not, lol.

 

I was suggesting you do it.

Without a low range, we could really use more low end torque than anything.  One of the reasons we have to go "too fast" over obstacles.  I've thought about a six cylinder swap but I think it would be better to eventually replace my Impreza with a rust free six cylinder car and start on that.  Still planning on making a low range at some point.

There are very few classes or series of desert racing that allow turbos.  A six cylinder would not bump us up a class and would have much more torque.  Not that I plan on caging one of these again.

The engine is still stock.  The previous owner supposedly replaced the head gaskets, and I've replaced the timing belt and spark plugs and wires, but that's all that's been done to it as far as I know with 210,000 miles of abuse on it.  I've thought about some of the frankenmotor builds but I'd really like to see some dyno charts starting at 500RPM instead of 2 or 3k.

At this point, especially for desert racing, we're still almost totally limited by the suspension.  We could get up to speed faster out of the corners with more power but it we'd still have to go slow in the rough.  I'd rather have a 25% improvement in suspension than double the power.  Even though the suspension now is far better than stock.  More power would probably make it a lot more fun to drive but like you say then we'd probably just start breaking CVs, etc.

[Uberoo]

If you rework the suspension so the control arms pivot in line with the cv axle you should be able to get more travel.Right now some of your travel is eaten up by the CV axle plunging in and out.Do some mockup to figure out exactly how much movement the axle can support.When I mocked up the shorter and smaller EA81 axles for my project, I found that with a proper suspension geometry I can pull 18" out of the rear and 12-14" out of the front to allow for turning.In my case that means moving the suspension pivots INWARD by about 2 13/16" per side.Take your springs off and cycle the suspension and find out what needs to changed for more travel,the axles can take the angles.

 

For desert racing set up the suspension for a modest lift over stock (2-4") with 60% of your travel for up travel.

[pontoontodd]

If you rework the suspension so the control arms pivot in line with the cv axle you should be able to get more travel.Right now some of your travel is eaten up by the CV axle plunging in and out.Do some mockup to figure out exactly how much movement the axle can support.When I mocked up the shorter and smaller EA81 axles for my project, I found that with a proper suspension geometry I can pull 18" out of the rear and 12-14" out of the front to allow for turning.In my case that means moving the suspension pivots INWARD by about 2 13/16" per side.Take your springs off and cycle the suspension and find out what needs to changed for more travel,the axles can take the angles.

 

For desert racing set up the suspension for a modest lift over stock (2-4") with 60% of your travel for up travel.

 

Up travel on both ends is limited also by tire/wheel well clearance.

You are right though, in droop on both ends the CVs are close to bottoming out. 

In the rear they slide inwards at full droop.  Various other things are binding up too though.  Maybe if we went to heim jointed links instead of rubber bushings that wouldn't be a problem.

In the front the CVs slide outwards at full droop.  The outer tie rod ends also run out of travel, which wouldn't be the hardest thing to fix.  If we moved the control arm pivots much I think we'd get some bump steer.

The nature of the shocks/struts limit the travel too.  For instance, say the compressed height of the shock/strut is 14" from the top mount to the spindle, you can only have 11" of travel.  I've seen some rally cars get around this by offsetting the front strut to go down alongside the axle, like the stock rear struts.  Looked at doing that and didn't seem like it would work for us.  I have seen some offroad cars mount the top of the shocks sticking through the hood but didn't want to go that route if we could avoid it.  More practical to do that in the rear, but the rear struts are already pretty long so probably not necessary.

I had the springs off many times and cycled the suspension while we were building the long travel.  The springs themselves are an issue too.  The rule of thumb with aftermarket "racing" springs is that you only get about half their height in travel without yielding (permanently deforming) or hitting coil bind.  That is why at first we had the springs running almost the full length of the struts alongside the tire sidewalls.  To get the springs pointed at the wheel and the strut body farther out to reduce binding, we went to a traditional spring perch over the tire layout.  So again, the best we can find are say 5" compressed at full bump, 16" long at full droop, so only 11" of travel.  You could probably just run another inch or two of droop and have the springs float.  The springs we're using now are the best MOOG springs I could find using their chart.  I would like something 30-50% stiffer to get a little more ride height, right now it sits in the middle of the travel.  So without getting custom wound springs that is a limitation also.  Unless someone knows of another spring chart out there.

[pontoontodd]

I ordered a head gasket leak tester and that came in, but the fluid was on back order so I figured I'd get it locally.

The guys at the O'Reilly's I stopped in yesterday couldn't find the test fluid.  I stopped in an Autozone and got a bottle.  After a lot of bubbling the test fluid was still blue.  To make sure it worked I put it behind the exhaust while the engine was running and after a half dozen squeezes of the bulb the fluid changed yellow or almost clear.  So I don't think I have a head gasket leak.

It does seem to take a lot less throttle to cruise at 80mph now that the exhaust isn't crushed on one side, I wonder how much of our problem that was.  I also replaced the rear O2 sensor since the wires were pulled out but I doubt that would make much difference.  The car did seem to run cool at the start of the race and got hotter as we went, but so did the ambient temps.

[pontoontodd]

Another thing I did after we got back is to weld some bushings on the subframe for the driver's side control arm.  The holes were wallered (slotted) out at least 1/8" each way.  Turned up a couple of bushings to use a longer bolt so the shoulder would be engaged on both sides.  Tack welded them on with the control arm bolted up.

 

 

 

Then swung the arms down (as pictured), finished welding and threw a little paint on.

 

 

 

I'll eventually do this to the other side to be safe.

 

After the race the steering shook over 60mph on the highway.  Between replacing the one control arm bushing, tightening a castle nut on one of the tie rods, and this fix it's now back to smooth steering on the highway.

 

I've been thinking about how to get more travel and keep thinking that we really would want more up travel.  I don't know how much more a couple inches of droop travel would help.  I don't want to raise the car much.  At full bump the bottom of the wheel is about even with the bottom of the body, so we could use at least a couple more inches of up travel.  At the moment I don't know how to practically do that.  For one thing the front tires are very close to the wheelwells already.  I think the rear axles get pretty close to the rear crossmember at full bump, that might take some effort to fix.  Mainly though the springs are already at coil bind at full bump without any room between them and the strut mounts or the tires, so I don't know a good way around that.  Maybe shorter but stiffer springs that would be a couple of inches short at full droop would be the answer.

[pontoontodd]

Installed a big heater core in the hatch door plumbed into the heater circuit.

 

Started with this heater core for a 78-97 Dodge full size van and 8" Spal fan.  Found the heater core on a chart online of heater core sizes, the flange is very convenient for mounting.

 

 

Cut a hole in the hatch to fit the fan.

 

 

Heater flow goes first through the stock heater in case we actually want heat, then over the gas pedal and under the radio.

 

 

Then through the console and under the carpet over the driveshaft tunnel.

 

 

Then under the rear seat and up along the rear seat belt.

 

 

Then over the spare tire to the hatch.

 

 

Then in the hatch door to the rear heater core.

 

 

Cut a hole in the interior panel to allow airflow.

 

 

This is how it looks from the back, moved the license plate over to the side.

 

 

The fan moves a lot of air, but the only time I've driven it since and gotten it up to temp it wasn't fully bled yet so it wasn't very hot.  There is definitely a noticeable difference in temperature between the hose going out of the engine and the one going back in under the hood.

[Uberoo]

REPLACE ALL OF THAT RUBBER HOSE with metal before you burn the hell out of yourself when a hose bursts.I highly doubt any self respecting tech inspection will let that RUBBER HOSE pass tech when its ran in the interior with NO SHIELDS of any kind. Dont forget to install heat shielding insulation around all of the metal coolant lines as well as a outer shield around that.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Uberoo

[scalman]

i saw you weld a lot. what kind of mig, tig you using there?. and what kind of would be enough for simple welds around car , like not often. how much amps is enough ? i wanna buy one but dont wanna pay too much for thing i wont use often.

Edited May 4, 2016 by scalman

[pontoontodd]

REPLACE ALL OF THAT RUBBER HOSE with metal before you burn the hell out of yourself when a hose bursts.I highly doubt any self respecting tech inspection will let that RUBBER HOSE pass tech when its ran in the interior with NO SHIELDS of any kind. Dont forget to install heat shielding insulation around all of the metal coolant lines as well as a outer shield around that.

 

How/where would you suggest doing that?  I was originally going to run them in the driveshaft tunnel but I was afraid they'd get snagged or smashed, plus running alongside the hot exhaust would sort of defeat the point.  Why would I put heat shielding insulation around the metal lines?  The whole point is to reject heat.  We even discussed running some of those finned aluminum lines, but they'd probably have to go on the roof or something.  If nothing else this way I can find out how much it drops temps to have that heater core and fan in the back.

[pontoontodd]

i saw you weld a lot. what kind of mig, tig you using there?. and what kind of would be enough for simple welds around car , like not often. how much amps is enough ? i wanna buy one but dont wanna pay too much for thing i wont use often.

 

I'd suggest a small Lincoln MIG welder.  I've had a weld pack 100 for about twenty years now and it still works great.  It runs on 120V AC like most inexpensive welders in the US, so I'm not sure what an equivalent model would be for you. 

You will definitely want to use inert gas and solid wire.  You can get a gas kit if it doesn't come set up for it.  The cheapest way in the long run here is to buy a bottle (75/25) and then have it refilled.  I bought the largest one they have and probably get it refilled about once a year, sometimes less often.  You can still get a small bottle if you need to move it around a lot.  I made up a filler out of fittings from McMaster (not sure where you'd get them) to hook one tank to the other to refill the small one with the big one since it's fairly expensive and a hassle to get the small one recharged all the time.  If you're going to do that get solid fittings that are rated for the pressure you're dealing with.

It's cheaper to buy the larger spools of wire (I think they're 11#) but if you don't use it often and it gets wet/moist the wire can rust and cause all sorts of problems.  So if you don't use it a lot get a small spool of wire.  For the weld pack 100 I normally use .023" wire.  That welder can weld very thin and/or rusty/painted metal surprisingly well.  It's of course ideal to have clean metal to weld together but some things can be rushed or can't be cleaned.  That welder can weld up to about 1/16" steel very well.  You can weld thicker steel with it but you should do multiple passes at the least.

I also have a power mig 180C.  That's what I normally use now.  It is the cheapest 220V welder Lincoln sells here and is MUCH smaller than their other 220V welders.  I use .030" wire in that one and you can still turn it low enough to weld .030" thick steel.  It's definitely good for 1/8" thick steel and does fine on thicker stuff.

[Cyfun]

How/where would you suggest doing that?  I was originally going to run them in the driveshaft tunnel but I was afraid they'd get snagged or smashed, plus running alongside the hot exhaust would sort of defeat the point.  Why would I put heat shielding insulation around the metal lines?  The whole point is to reject heat.  We even discussed running some of those finned aluminum lines, but they'd probably have to go on the roof or something.  If nothing else this way I can find out how much it drops temps to have that heater core and fan in the back.

 

I was thinking the same thing as Uberoo.  If you really wanna put a radiator in back, you'd wanna run a couple of metal tubes under the car.  However, metal or rubber, that's just more spoob to go wrong.

 

I would still recommend trying to find a bigger front radiator.  But failing that, I'd suggest putting that second heater core in the front of the car.  If you had it vent out the hood, then you'd only have a few extra feet of heater hose, and it would also help vent hot air from the engine bay.

 

I forget, did you ever rig up some air extractor vents in the hood?

[pontoontodd]

I was thinking the same thing as Uberoo.  If you really wanna put a radiator in back, you'd wanna run a couple of metal tubes under the car.  However, metal or rubber, that's just more spoob to go wrong.

 

I would still recommend trying to find a bigger front radiator.  But failing that, I'd suggest putting that second heater core in the front of the car.  If you had it vent out the hood, then you'd only have a few extra feet of heater hose, and it would also help vent hot air from the engine bay.

 

I forget, did you ever rig up some air extractor vents in the hood?

 

Still trying to decide what to do about the radiator.  At the moment I'm leaning towards the Mishimoto for 91-94 Legacy Turbo.  The tanks, inlet, outlet, and mounts look the same.  Expensive but probably worth it.  I definitely have to replace the condenser.  Waiting a bit on both of those, no sense getting them beat up and dirty before the V2R.

 

Didn't see a good place to put the heater core in the front.  I suppose it could be mounted to the hood itself but we'd have to do some testing to see how we could get air to flow through it.  It would certainly make the plumbing a lot simpler and safer.  One of the main thoughts behind the heater core in the hatch is that it should stay pretty clean.

 

Still working on the vent in the hood.  I'll post some pictures eventually.

[Uberoo]

Use  5/8" flexible copper tube for the tube.Use rubber just for the sections where it connects to something or needs to flex.Flare the ends of the copper tube so the rubber sections can't slide off.

 

You want to insulate the lines because they will be VERY hot and if you touch any part of the line you will be burned.Not to mention you'll be running 200*+ lines through the interior of the car that like to radiate heat even in 100* degree weather.Those lines might make it so hot in the car during a race that you pass out from heat stroke.

[Cyfun]

Found you another project car: https://greatfalls.craigslist.org/cto/5556153526.html

[pontoontodd]

Found you another project car: https://greatfalls.craigslist.org/cto/5556153526.html

 

Looks like a decent car.  At this point I'm thinking something with lower miles and a 2005+ for the bolt on front wheel bearings.  Although I guess I know I can just put them on an older car, especially since I probably won't care about ABS.

[Cyfun]

A valid point.  But good luck finding an H6 for so cheap.  And remember, out here, cars with high miles are usually in better shape cause it's all highway miles at 80mph.  I've had several vehicles with over 300k miles that were in better shape than most 100k mile cars.