long travel Outbacks or making Subarus faster and more reliable offroad

[pontoontodd]

Video from our race in Nevada:

 

[jf1sf5]

Hi pontoontodd !

 

Just signed up here to follow your build, especially the suspension setup. Your skills are amazing !

 

I have a '97 Forester which had custom Proflex Evo 2 struts built for a Forester engaged in the '08 Dakar. I bought them 2nd hand from Bruno Picard in '10 but don't use them anymore as they are not comfortable enough, its my daily. They are inverted struts, I had the same problem as you, the bearings needed to be lubricated to work properly so I tried to find a solution with upper and lower joints around the bearing and fork oil. The result was fine but needed too much maintenance...

 

As I don't have your fabrication skills, I tried another route and found non-inverted struts built to my specs with 24cm stroke front and 26cm stroke rear. I calculated the maximum stroke possible in the front to be 24cm because of the inner CV's and steering components (no body lift) but I can see that you have even more stroke, especially on compression…how did you do that ?

Edited September 16, 2016 by jf1sf5

[pontoontodd]

Hi pontoontodd !

 

Just signed up here to follow your build, especially the suspension setup. Your skills are amazing !

 

I have a '97 Forester which had custom Proflex Evo 2 struts built for a Forester engaged in the '08 Dakar. I bought them 2nd hand from Bruno Picard in '10 but don't use them anymore as they are not comfortable enough, its my daily. They are inverted struts, I had the same problem as you, the bearings needed to be lubricated to work properly so I tried to find a solution with upper and lower joints around the bearing and fork oil. The result was fine but needed too much maintenance...

 

As I don't have your fabrication skills, I tried another route and found non-inverted struts built to my specs with 24cm stroke front and 26cm stroke rear. I calculated the maximum stroke possible in the front to be 24cm because of the inner CV's and steering components (no body lift) but I can see that you have even more stroke, especially on compression…how did you do that ?

 

Thanks, glad you like it.

I don't daily drive anything, but I usually drive the car a few times a week and the bushings we're using now seem happy and greased when I check them.  Keep meaning to add grease fittings between the bushings but haven't yet.  I figure it's a good idea to go through them after a race or major beating, the top bearings often need replacement and the rear boots keep getting torn up.  So I just grease them then.

How did you calculate the maximum possible stroke?  We just mocked it up and moved the suspension until things hit or bound.  Ours don't have much more travel than yours, maybe 10%.  We did make the extended front arms, which definitely helped.  The real limitation we've run into has been the springs.  Again, if anyone knows of a good coil spring size chart, I'd love to see it.  We've been talking about getting custom springs wound since we might make a set for my friend's Forester soon.  It would be nice to have a stiffer spring rate, right now it sits about in the middle of the travel at ride height.  I'd rather have 7-8" of compression travel and 4" of extension.  Plus an inch or two more ground clearance wouldn't hurt.  Since the spring has to hang over the top of the tire, at coil bind it has to be about 4" tall to get about 12" of travel.  Otherwise we could probably have more compression travel, which would be great.  And that's really pushing the springs (about 150ksi / 1050MPa stress at coil bind), I'm surprised they haven't sagged yet, normally you're only supposed to compress a coil spring to half of its relaxed height as a rule of thumb.  Extension travel is limited by the CV plunge travel and the tie rods binding up, and again the springs, although you could probably let them go slack if they were retained properly.

I'm sure the Dakar struts were sprung and valved to be driven hard over rough terrain, and I'm sure they didn't care what the ride quality would be like putting around on city streets.  I would love to see some pictures of those, especially torn apart.  Our struts ride pretty well on the street.  At parking lot speeds they're a little harsh, once you get going it's a little stiffer than stock but really soaks up big potholes, speed bumps, etc.  If all we did was desert race this car I'd probably go stiffer on the valving, it does limit our speed sometimes since we know it will bottom out if we hit things too hard.  If we started running it harder we'd probably break other things though.

[jf1sf5]

http://www.forum4x4.org/threads/117587-Subaru-forester?p=2074279&viewfull=1#post2074279

 

Here are a few pics, didn't do any torn apart ones though…will do !

 

And here is a calculation I did for another Subaru enthusiast (email I sent him)

 

 

First, I converted everything to metric, its easier for me…

 

Weight front : 845 kg - 100 kg (unsprung weight) = 745 kg - 40 kg (strut spring force at ride height, 20 kg per side) = 705 kg

 

Spring rates : 1x 254 mm x 50 N/mm + 1x 254 mm x 40 N/mm =  1x 508 mm x 22,2 N/mm  ((50 x 40) : (50 + 40) = 22,2)

 

705 kg : 22,2 N/mm = 31,7 cm (amount of compression of the springs at full load like when diagonal spin occurs)

 

Spring length at ride height : 508 mm - (317 : 2 = 158) = 350 mm (divided because the weight is on both front wheels) 

 

Ride height : 350 mm - 165 mm (thread height) = 185 mm (rod length) 

Weight rear : 710 kg - 100 kg = 610 kg - 40 kg = 570 kg

 

Spring rates : 2x 280 mm x 40N/mm = 1x 560 mm x 20 N/mm

 

570 kg : 20 N/mm = 28,5 cm

 

Spring length at ride height : 560 mm - (285 : 2 = 142) = 418 mm

 

Ride height : 418 - 165 = 253 mm 

 

I did this calculation if you want to have maximum stroke (what I did to mine). 

 

Your hydraulic settings are quite hard I think but its easier to change the oil than the settings. HotBits uses ATF Dexron III (viscosity 34 cst@40°C). I changed for Motorex Fork Oil 7.5W because it works much smoother (no stick-slip) but has the same viscosity because my settings are like oem Subaru struts and I can harden the compression with the knobs (DT2)

 

Et voilà ! Hope it helps you !

Vincent

 

 

 

 

You can see that I use 2 springs per strut because I couldn't find long enough springs. Did this calculation for the newer struts and more for crawling than rallying.

 

Edit : seems I can't post the images

Edited September 16, 2016 by jf1sf5

[pontoontodd]

http://www.forum4x4.org/threads/117587-Subaru-forester?p=2074279&viewfull=1#post2074279

 

Here are a few pics, didn't do any torn apart ones though…will do !

 

And here is a calculation I did for another Subaru enthusiast (email I sent him)

 

 

First, I converted everything to metric, its easier for me…

 

Weight front : 845 kg - 100 kg (unsprung weight) = 745 kg - 40 kg (strut spring force at ride height, 20 kg per side) = 705 kg

 

Spring rates : 1x 254 mm x 50 N/mm + 1x 254 mm x 40 N/mm =  1x 508 mm x 22,2 N/mm  ((50 x 40) : (50 + 40) = 22,2)

 

705 kg : 22,2 N/mm = 31,7 cm (amount of compression of the springs at full load like when diagonal spin occurs)

 

Spring length at ride height : 508 mm - (317 : 2 = 158) = 350 mm (divided because the weight is on both front wheels) 

 

Ride height : 350 mm - 165 mm (thread height) = 185 mm (rod length) 

Weight rear : 710 kg - 100 kg = 610 kg - 40 kg = 570 kg

 

Spring rates : 2x 280 mm x 40N/mm = 1x 560 mm x 20 N/mm

 

570 kg : 20 N/mm = 28,5 cm

 

Spring length at ride height : 560 mm - (285 : 2 = 142) = 418 mm

 

Ride height : 418 - 165 = 253 mm 

 

I did this calculation if you want to have maximum stroke (what I did to mine). 

 

Your hydraulic settings are quite hard I think but its easier to change the oil than the settings. HotBits uses ATF Dexron III (viscosity 34 cst@40°C). I changed for Motorex Fork Oil 7.5W because it works much smoother (no stick-slip) but has the same viscosity because my settings are like oem Subaru struts and I can harden the compression with the knobs (DT2)

 

Et voilà ! Hope it helps you !

Vincent

 

 

 

 

You can see that I use 2 springs per strut because I couldn't find long enough springs. Did this calculation for the newer struts and more for crawling than rallying.

 

Edit : seems I can't post the images

 

Thanks for the pictures.  It looks like there's something wrong with your tape measure...

 

I'm surprised the springs are inline with the struts, rather than pointed at the hub like the stock struts.  That caused a lot of friction for us, maybe that's why they didn't ride smoothly on the street.

 

I know how to calculate spring rates, etc, I'm looking for a chart of available mass produced coil springs showing height, diameter, wire size, coils, rate, etc.  Moog has one but it's the only one I can find.  All of the aftermarket/racing companies sell smaller diameter springs than I need.

 

It's interesting, your front spring rate is about the same as mine but your rear springs are much softer.

[jf1sf5]

The rear spring rates are softer because of the lighter weight and longer stroke. And because I usually travel empty.

 

What is the tape measure ? (sorry, my english is very basic, I usually speak french !) 

[pontoontodd]

The rear spring rates are softer because of the lighter weight and longer stroke. And because I usually travel empty.

 

What is the tape measure ? (sorry, my english is very basic, I usually speak french !) 

 

If the spring rates were a little stiffer you'd have more compression travel from ride height.  Even if it doesn't increase your total travel, then you can keep the damping relatively soft and not bottom out as often.  Also I like the rear springs stiffer than the front to give some oversteer since there are no swaybars on my car.

 

Your English is 1000 times better than my French!  I was joking about the tape measure (cinta metrica in Spanish, mètre à ruban in French?), it's weird to see one with just centimeters on it rather than inches.

Edited September 16, 2016 by pontoontodd

[jf1sf5]

Ah, ok, I see what you mean !

 

Like you, I have no more sway bars. I do more crawling up mountain tracks (no deserts here !) even though I went to Morocco twice. For more oversteer, I chose the DCCD center differential (35/65 split) route with the possibility to lock 50/50, and for better traction on slippery surfaces, Quaife helical differentials front and rear. And of course, the famous low range modified at 1,59:1 !

 

But this is your thread, and I'd love to have your skills and be able to adapt motorbike forks (KTM for example) and see if it works even better !

[pontoontodd]

Ah, ok, I see what you mean !

 

Like you, I have no more sway bars. I do more crawling up mountain tracks (no deserts here !) even though I went to Morocco twice. For more oversteer, I chose the DCCD center differential (35/65 split) route with the possibility to lock 50/50, and for better traction on slippery surfaces, Quaife helical differentials front and rear. And of course, the famous low range modified at 1,59:1 !

 

But this is your thread, and I'd love to have your skills and be able to adapt motorbike forks (KTM for example) and see if it works even better !

 

Wow, it sounds like you have done a lot to your drivetrain.

 

I'm not sure if the forks would be strong enough.

[pontoontodd]

when you have cash on hand and they blow you off its upsetting maybe no one buys from them because of there atitude and besides if there set up basicly in my back yard how could I not talk to them also if there already poopin on us what difference would it make but seriosly my neighbor is a fox shock rep so I'll talk to him he is watching my house right now the next time I see him out wheelin I'll go play then say something maybe if they see these rigs on the trail they might be more willing to work with us usaly when I go to a ohv park I'm in all the places the yotas and big trucks wont go I've never been turned away from a park with my roo I've never herd of Subaru discrimination like that before I think if you go to a ohv park to do doh dohs  I think that's a responsible person where else is it leagle to do doughnuts that's what ohv parks are for I usaly go to state or federal ohv parks or blm or national forest service land maybe private parks are different OK sorry for jackin  the thread

 

Don't worry about jacking the thread, sorry I didn't reply to this earlier.

 

Fox is such a big company making shocks for everything from bicycles to trophy trucks, if they think they'd only sell a few sets of Subaru shocks/struts a year (and they're probably right), why would they bother?  I don't think we've ever seen any other Subarus when we go to off road parks or exploring off pavement.  I think what would make them more willing to work with Subaru people is if those people actually bought parts from them, which it sounds like doesn't happen.

 

I guess this guy was just doing donuts in their parking lot just inside the entrance and not trail riding.  There are often a lot of people with trailers there so it might have been dangerous, I don't know.  I'm sure if he was out in the park somewhere no one would care.

 

I think you're right about just using a standard EJ low range trans.

[Cyfun]

Did they ever find a way to make the EJ dual range transmissions viable? Cause from what I understand, the stock "low range" really isn't that much lower.  And putting more than 140hp behind the EA d/r trans is just asking for clutch slip and grenading the thing.

 

Either way, do you really need low range for racing? In my experience, I'd rather have wider ratios so as to not spend all damn day shifting.  Throwing more power in the mix would probably solve the gearing problem, as well as some 4.44's.

[jf1sf5]

There are 3 different low range ratios in the EJ gearboxes.

 

Early Imprezas ('93-'95) with 1.6 or 1.8 engines had the 1,59:1 with 3,9 differential ratio

 

Foresters with the 2.0 engine had the 1,45:1 with 4,11 differential ratio

 

Legacys with the 2.5 engine had the 1,19:1 (can't remember the differential ratio but think it's 3,9)

 

Other engine/model/year had 1,45:1 and 1,19:1 but the 1,59:1 was only in the early Imprezas.

 

As said by Cyfun, I think that low range would be too weak for rallying. Better find a 6 speed.

[pontoontodd]

Did they ever find a way to make the EJ dual range transmissions viable? Cause from what I understand, the stock "low range" really isn't that much lower.  And putting more than 140hp behind the EA d/r trans is just asking for clutch slip and grenading the thing.

 

Either way, do you really need low range for racing? In my experience, I'd rather have wider ratios so as to not spend all damn day shifting.  Throwing more power in the mix would probably solve the gearing problem, as well as some 4.44's.

 

Definitely wouldn't try an EA dual range.

Apparently we don't NEED low range, but it would be helpful at times.  During the race (with a flat tire) and in the UP in really soft sand, there have been a few times where it's nearly impossible to get started because of the gearing/tires/engine torque.  With the current engine closer ratios might be good, there were a few times going up grades during the race that third was too tall and second was too short.  Like you say though, more power/torque solves all of those problems.  I've talked to a few people who build EJ engines and it sounds like it would be about $4000 for not much more power and torque than we have now.  Our friend recently finished swapping an EZ30 H6 into his four seat street tube buggy (had a Rabbit 4 cyl) and tells me I should go that route.  Probably the main question there is whether or not to upgrade to a six speed at the same time.

 

There are 3 different low range ratios in the EJ gearboxes.

 

Early Imprezas ('93-'95) with 1.6 or 1.8 engines had the 1,59:1 with 3,9 differential ratio

 

Foresters with the 2.0 engine had the 1,45:1 with 4,11 differential ratio

 

Legacys with the 2.5 engine had the 1,19:1 (can't remember the differential ratio but think it's 3,9)

 

Other engine/model/year had 1,45:1 and 1,19:1 but the 1,59:1 was only in the early Imprezas.

 

As said by Cyfun, I think that low range would be too weak for rallying. Better find a 6 speed.

 

Thanks for that info, unfortunately none of that was ever sold in the US, so they're hard to find with any ratios.  I do have a line on a 4.11 with 1.59 low range though, if we don't do the H6 that would probably be the way to go.

[pontoontodd]

Back to brass tacks.  We went through the struts, wheel bearings, ball joints, etc and they all seem good.  Parking brake shoes are worn way down again, pretty sure that's just from sand and dirt getting in, we hardly ever use the parking brake.

 

Since the battery has top and side posts and we had the positive cable come loose during the race, figured it'd be a good idea to add some short jumper wires to tie into the side posts:

 

 

I had started to fabricate a new handle for the hatch when my friend suggested I see what the dealer wanted for one.  Turns out it's only $25, if this one lasts 17 years I'll be happy.

 

[SnakkerZ003]

Thanks, I'm flattered, glad you like it.

Started out as a much cheaper hobby than offroad racing, just trail riding with stock Subarus, and has gotten a little out of control.

The struts have been a lot of trial and error.  They've never failed completely on us but we've made a lot of improvements in the last year.  At the moment I'm not willing to just give away all of that, but you should be able to figure most or all of it out from what I've posted here.  I don't know how much fabrication and machining experience you have, but you'd need a decent amount to make a set that will hold up.  On top of all that, your XV has a multilink rear suspension, right?  So that would be a totally different animal, although probably easier.

Please, whatever you do, do NOT call Fox and ask them to make you a set of Subaru struts.  They've had so many people call before I did and then not follow through that they almost wouldn't sell me anything and I can't blame them.

I come from the desert racing community. Out there it seems more straight forward with off-road suspension than the Subaru world. The Subaru has a HUGE following of off road people, and like you PontoonTodd and the other guys on here there are a lot of guys building stuff them self. In desert racing theres a few main companies making shocks (Fox, Bilstien, King, etc). These are all Heavy Duty Off-road racing shocks. And they are not overly expensive. (You can spend some serious dollars though for top level stuff). Some offroad companies you can find like Camburg, or McNeil racing, or even Total Chaos offer kits that bolt on and may require some limited fabrication and your close to race ready(Certainly overkill for most trail stuff or desert running most guys do).

However Most aftermarket stuff for Subaru are less unified. They're either small companies that people talk trash on back and forth (JVAD, All Wheel Driven, Hotbits, BBS, Flatout etc) Or big name companies like Ohlins, Reiger, Tein, that produce WRC stuff for $10k +. 

Its awesome to see the work you've done and how far you've come. It would be super cool to see Subaru folks get together and create something with as strong a following. Some of the guys building trophy trucks in the desert started buy building a truck in their garage to spectate races and it grew from there. If you could produce your suspension parts on scale that made it profitable for you and at a purchase price people could afford maybe we would see more subies on the trails and at off-road parks.... Maybe even a few more in Desert Racing, Not just the rally world

[pontoontodd]

I come from the desert racing community. Out there it seems more straight forward with off-road suspension than the Subaru world. The Subaru has a HUGE following of off road people, and like you PontoonTodd and the other guys on here there are a lot of guys building stuff them self. In desert racing theres a few main companies making shocks (Fox, Bilstien, King, etc). These are all Heavy Duty Off-road racing shocks. And they are not overly expensive. (You can spend some serious dollars though for top level stuff). Some offroad companies you can find like Camburg, or McNeil racing, or even Total Chaos offer kits that bolt on and may require some limited fabrication and your close to race ready(Certainly overkill for most trail stuff or desert running most guys do).

However Most aftermarket stuff for Subaru are less unified. They're either small companies that people talk trash on back and forth (JVAD, All Wheel Driven, Hotbits, BBS, Flatout etc) Or big name companies like Ohlins, Reiger, Tein, that produce WRC stuff for $10k +. 

Its awesome to see the work you've done and how far you've come. It would be super cool to see Subaru folks get together and create something with as strong a following. Some of the guys building trophy trucks in the desert started buy building a truck in their garage to spectate races and it grew from there. If you could produce your suspension parts on scale that made it profitable for you and at a purchase price people could afford maybe we would see more subies on the trails and at off-road parks.... Maybe even a few more in Desert Racing, Not just the rally world

 

Most recreational Subaru off roading I've seen has been closer to crawling than high speed running.  Rally / rallycross is probably more similar to what we're doing, but those courses are usually fairly smooth.  So I think the market for Subaru suspension built for what we're doing and the number of people who will pay for it is pretty small.  I know what you're talking about with the mid and long travel kits for trucks, most of the guys trying to do budget pre running or whatever you want to call it are used to doing that in trucks, not in cars.  Is that because they're inherently better suited with actual frames, more ground clearance, and bigger tires, or just because that's how they've done it for decades?  We just thought since Subarus seem to ride better over rough terrain compared to any truck or SUV we've been in (stock vs stock) they would be a better starting point.  I think one thing keeping people out of that end of the market is that it isn't just making wider arms and selling shocks and springs that fit.  You have to make struts, which are just inherently more complicated and specialized.  Given the right volume the price shouldn't be much more than shocks, but it's hard to get there.

Maybe with the increase in popularity of Subarus now and with models like the Forester, Baja, and Crosstrek, more people will start going what we're doing with them.

[pontoontodd]

Here is the best picture I got of how smashed the exhaust was.  Not terrible but probably not good, and pressed up against the power steering lines.  You can also see where I had to weld shut the hole/crack we got during the race.

 

 

For the time being I picked up a header from the junkyard that was lying under a Forester.  Cut out some copper gaskets for the flanges.  Have small tubes inside of those joints as well to minimize leakage.  This is all the exhaust that's on the car right now and it's quiet enough.

 

 

Eventually I'll run it to the back, probably get rid of this muffler, and have one near the back of the car.  Going to make a skidplate out of 1/16" 4130 under the Y pipe and crossmember.  Got it mocked up out of cardboard and have the piece of steel, just have to get around to making it.  Probably have some spacers under the crossmember to help keep the exhaust from getting crushed.  Really leaning towards the H6 swap though, so no sense doing a bunch of exhaust work yet.

[pontoontodd]

Rerouted and replaced most of the fuel lines, rewired and mounted the pumps on top of the fuel cell.  Put different color zip ties on each hose for future troubleshooting, that's already come in handy.  Used Gates 225psi fuel hose which seems to kink more easily than other fuel hose I've used, but works.  Any suggestions on a good 3/8" hose for fuel injection?  The pumps definitely make more noise now that they're in the car, but once you're moving you can't really hear them over a little tire and wind noise.  The power wire to the fuel pump that used to go to the top of the stock fuel tank is questionable, light gauge to begin with and slightly corroded now.  I should probably run a wire from the fuel pump relay to the back of the car sometime.

 

 

Ran it a bit, everything seemed good, then went for a test drive around the block and when I got back there was fuel spraying out the bottom of the car.  It was coming out the gasket on the surge tank.  My first thought was that the overflow hose from the surge tank was a little kinked and maybe that was causing the tank to build up pressure.  Wanted to replace the gasket and shorten the studs so I took that all apart.  Then I realized there's still a check valve in one of the bulkhead fittings designed to keep the gas from coming out the vent in a rollover.  That must have closed and kept the fuel from going out the overflow.  So I removed that ball and snapring.  That might have been a small part of our problem before, the pump flowing through that little hole in the side of the fitting was probably heating up the fuel a bit.

 

[pontoontodd]

Engine was dripping coolant from the water pump area, so I got a water pump and new timing belt and we replaced those yesterday.  Seems to have cured the leak so far.  Might have just been the water pump gasket.  Not too bad to do in the car.

[Uberoo]

You should make your spare tire rack removable for races-less weight.

 

also it might be nice to rework the suspension so that at least 31" tires fit and dont rub on anything just to get the belly up out of the dirt.Just thinking it might be able to go faster if it had a bunch more ground clearance.

[pontoontodd]

You should make your spare tire rack removable for races-less weight.

 

also it might be nice to rework the suspension so that at least 31" tires fit and dont rub on anything just to get the belly up out of the dirt.Just thinking it might be able to go faster if it had a bunch more ground clearance.

 

Are you talking about the hoop we run in the back of the car for the races?  That's so when we get nerfed the hatch doesn't get destroyed.

 

Our limiting factor on travel and tire clearance is the springs.  We're already pushing them almost to coil bind and they have no preload, so there's no good way to move the spring perch up without using a shorter spring and losing travel.  Taller tires would be nice, more ground clearance would be good, should improve the ride quality too, but the current gearing is already barely tolerable with the tires we have.  I wonder if we'd start to wear out or break axles faster too.

[Uberoo]

Makes since. 

[pontoontodd]

Trying to decide whether to swap an H6 in this car or just buy an H6 Outback and make that race legal.  Either way I'm planning on an 01-04 OB H6 and a manual trans, probably six speed.  In 2005 they went to CAN bus (?) which would make swapping engine/trans much more difficult.  They also seemed to make a lot more 01-04 and they're cheaper.  Long term plan is to get one for my wife, donor for engine swap, and a complete car for manual trans swap and long travel for me to drive to replace the Impreza.  Pros/cons:

 

Swap:

cheaper, probably less work

 

Race prep an H6 Outback:

More solid body if I got a rust free car. 

No major wiring issues to figure out (mainly manual trans conversion).

I really don't need two cars with cages, it basically makes the car a two seater except for small people or short trips, and can't recline the front seats.

I could steal the fuel cells, pumps, and some other things out of the 99 and scrap it out, which seems like a waste.

If I keep the 99, even just as a street car, I'd have to buy another fuel cell(s), pumps, etc.  Probably close to $1000.

If I wanted to race both, I'd have to get another pair of seats, harnesses, window nets, probably race radio, etc.  $1500-$2000.

 

Anything I'm missing?  Would it be better to race prep an H6 rather than swap the engine into mine?

[SnakkerZ003]

I would say it comes down to what you want to do and how much time effort you want to put into it.

 

How much time effort would it take to swap the motor and make a manual trans into your present car?

with the current car you have all the parts to go racing and a proven design.

 

How much does it cost to find a suitable car with the engine and trans you want? Then build a whole new cage and transfer all the parts? Would the current suspension swap or would you have to build new? 

Could you part the old car out?

Are there major design changes you would like to make (Do things different next time)? 

[pontoontodd]

I would say it comes down to what you want to do and how much time effort you want to put into it.

 

How much time effort would it take to swap the motor and make a manual trans into your present car?

with the current car you have all the parts to go racing and a proven design.

 

How much does it cost to find a suitable car with the engine and trans you want? Then build a whole new cage and transfer all the parts? Would the current suspension swap or would you have to build new? 

Could you part the old car out?

Are there major design changes you would like to make (Do things different next time)? 

 

I really don't know how long the engine swap would take.  Mechanically we could probably take out the four and bolt in the six in a weekend.  I'd need either an H6 radiator or different hoses but I think the wiring would be the most time consuming.  Worst case I know of a guy who can trim down the wiring harness from the donor car for $500 so I would only have to hook up a few wires.  Six speed I'm not sure, I think the axles are different but I have to check.  A donor car would probably be $1000-$1500, six speed about $1200.  At this point this is what I'm leaning towards in case you can't tell.  In the long run I'd like to do a few more desert races but I don't anticipate doing it for many years in a Subaru.

 

There is a decent looking H6 Outback for sale in CA right now with 130k miles for $2500, so probably $3000ish for a decent car we could build up.  $1000 just for cage tubing, we could use a lot of the parts from the 99 but then that would have to just be scrapped, or figure up to another $3000 for seats, harnesses, window nets, fuel cells, pumps, etc.  The front suspension is the same as far as I know.  The rear suspension in the 01-04 is completely different, so we'd be starting over there.  I probably wouldn't do it a lot differently if we did another one from scratch.  I think the main advantage would be that we'd have a lower mileage rust free car.