long travel Outbacks or making Subarus faster and more reliable offroad

[jf1sf5]

Yes, reverse is quite fragile on manual transmissions when low range is engaged...

 

To "strengthen" your gearbox, you should swap your diff ratios to 4,44.

[pontoontodd]

Yes, reverse is quite fragile on manual transmissions when low range is engaged...

 

To "strengthen" your gearbox, you should swap your diff ratios to 4,44.

 

The 4.44 gears would help some but that's a lot of work for 8% more reduction.  Also, would the ring gear even fit in the front with the low range?  I already had to clearance the 4.11 ring gear.

 

Is there a high strength reverse gear available?  It seems like the idler is the first one to go, which is odd considering the gear on the input shaft is half the size.  I'm tempted to make a few but it would take a while and/or be expensive.

 

Does anyone know of a fix to keeping first and second from popping out of gear?  I think it only happens when driving down rough grades while engine braking.  Not a huge problem but I'd like to do something about it while it's apart.  I can't find any springs for the detent balls that are stiffer than stock from McMaster or Lee.  Mine have a small patch of white paint on them, I'm wondering if Subaru or some aftermarket company sells something stiffer.

Edited December 4, 2017 by pontoontodd

[scalman]

Yes, we made the same long travel struts for the Forester as we've been using on the Outback.

Go you youtube and look up channel pontoontodd.  I am uploading one right now, and have four more to edit this winter.

You can read through this thread for ideas.  In the first post I listed modifications we've done with most important at the top.  If you won't buy better struts I would at least look into lift springs.  In your case I'd save your money until you can buy a rust free car.  I've learned that the hard way.

Just go out, drive around on backroads and trails with at least one other car, have a good time, and see what you want to improve.

will check it out when back home. and i will use now this car as it is , and i will fix it some as much as i can for it to hold on . welding new metal even on top rust if its holds to good metal its still better then nothing i guess. 

why we cant just adapt , change something to fit struts from other cars that are similar but longer ? i saw in this forum people doing that for older subarus. like take similar strut from other car that is longer and if its not fit , make it fit. no ?

[pontoontodd]

will check it out when back home. and i will use now this car as it is , and i will fix it some as much as i can for it to hold on . welding new metal even on top rust if its holds to good metal its still better then nothing i guess. 

why we cant just adapt , change something to fit struts from other cars that are similar but longer ? i saw in this forum people doing that for older subarus. like take similar strut from other car that is longer and if its not fit , make it fit. no ?

 

I'm not stopping you from adapting struts from a different car to fit your Subaru.  I have not found a good chart or list of strut lengths.  Again, I think the other problems I would have is that they will probably not have enough compression damping, so they will bottom out easily, and they will probably bend if driven hard, especially if they are longer than stock and bottom easily.  I think Bilstein sells generic strut inserts with up to 9" travel for inverted struts, but you would still have to make bodies and fit springs to them.  The stock Subaru rear struts have 8" of travel, you might have a hard time finding something off the shelf with much more than that.  If you do find something post about it.

[jf1sf5]

The 4.44 gears would help some but that's a lot of work for 8% more reduction.  Also, would the ring gear even fit in the front with the low range?  I already had to clearance the 4.11 ring gear.

 

Is there a high strength reverse gear available?  It seems like the idler is the first one to go, which is odd considering the gear on the input shaft is half the size.  I'm tempted to make a few but it would take a while and/or be expensive.

 

Does anyone know of a fix to keeping first and second from popping out of gear?  I think it only happens when driving down rough grades while engine braking.  Not a huge problem but I'd like to do something about it while it's apart.  I can't find any springs for the detent balls that are stiffer than stock from McMaster or Lee.  Mine have a small patch of white paint on them, I'm wondering if Subaru or some aftermarket company sells something stiffer.

 

Can't remember...do you have a 1,59:1 low range ? Because normally, the 4,11 ring gear clears the 1,447:1 low range, its standard on EUDM and AUDM.

 

I too have first gear popping out driving down rough grades while engine braking...if you find stiffer springs, let me know !

[pontoontodd]

Can't remember...do you have a 1,59:1 low range ? Because normally, the 4,11 ring gear clears the 1,447:1 low range, its standard on EUDM and AUDM.

 

I too have first gear popping out driving down rough grades while engine braking...if you find stiffer springs, let me know !

 

Yes, I have the 1.59 low range.  The 4.11 that was in the trans had a slight chamfer on the ring gear.  I had to swap in a different 4.11 gearset and grind a chamfer on it in the lathe.  I posted about it a while back.

 

I haven't found stiffer springs.  I'm thinking about putting a little spacer behind them.

[jf1sf5]

Dedman on offroadsubarus built a box with 1,59:1 and 4,44 but he did take some more meat off the ring gear.

[Numbchux]

I had to grind my 4.444 ring to clear 1.59

[Gloyale]

Is there a high strength reverse gear available?  It seems like the idler is the first one to go, which is odd considering the gear on the input shaft is half the size.  I'm tempted to make a few but it would take a while and/or be expensive.

 

I put a brass nut on the reverse shaft that keeps the idler from kicking back too far.  About 8~10mm thick IIRC....just found a brass nut that fit over the shaft and stuck it in there.

 

IvansImports I think was the board member here who came up with that trick. It does keep the revers idler WAAAY more in line with the other gears.

[pontoontodd]

I put a brass nut on the reverse shaft that keeps the idler from kicking back too far.  About 8~10mm thick IIRC....just found a brass nut that fit over the shaft and stuck it in there.

 

IvansImports I think was the board member here who came up with that trick. It does keep the revers idler WAAAY more in line with the other gears.

 

I made a brass spacer .240" thick the last time I put the trans together after reading about that on here.  Yes, it lines the reverse gears up much better than stock. 

I think the idler gear going past the others actually helps hold it engaged though.  I made a .140" thick spacer I'm going to put in this time so the idler is somewhat past the other gears so they hopefully hold it in place.  I've been unable to find stiffer detent springs which I think would help too.

[pontoontodd]

Got the video edited from our UP trip back in July.

 

[jf1sf5]

Nice !

 

Do you have the same spring rates on both the Outback and Forester ? The Forester seems to jump more over the bumps. Maybe some softer springs or more damping (rebound) would help.

[pontoontodd]

Nice !

 

Do you have the same spring rates on both the Outback and Forester ? The Forester seems to jump more over the bumps. Maybe some softer springs or more damping (rebound) would help.

 

Yes, we have the same springs and valving on both cars.  The struts and springs are set up more for the Outback.  The Forester is probably 500 pounds lighter so it doesn't ride quite as well, but much better than stock.  We can get various rates for the rear but I haven't found much in the size we're using for the front springs.  Also, the start of the video is about the lowest speed they're tuned for, it really starts to smooth out over 40-50mph.

[scalman]

Yes, we have the same springs and valving on both cars.  The struts and springs are set up more for the Outback.  The Forester is probably 500 pounds lighter so it doesn't ride quite as well, but much better than stock.  We can get various rates for the rear but I haven't found much in the size we're using for the front springs.  Also, the start of the video is about the lowest speed they're tuned for, it really starts to smooth out over 40-50mph.

its cool video. and good presentation of long travel . so basicaly you must go really fast and crazy for long travel to work properly. does it help at slow offroad stuff too ? with more flex it should yh ? 

[pontoontodd]

its cool video. and good presentation of long travel . so basicaly you must go really fast and crazy for long travel to work properly. does it help at slow offroad stuff too ? with more flex it should yh ? 

 

It's better than the stock struts at any speed.  Yes, they help at low speeds.  High speeds is really what they're made and tuned for though and where they work great.

[pontoontodd]

Video from the last Vegas to Reno race:

[jf1sf5]

Impressive !

 

You go 2 wheels on some portions...its hot !

[pontoontodd]

Ever since the Vegas to Reno I've been meaning to weld the seam on the side opposite the one that split open.  It's had a small section that's split open for a year or two, figured it would be best to weld it while it's still mostly intact.

 

 

Easiest way I know of to remove the undercoating is with a propane torch.  Heat it up until it burns and shrinks up a bit, then scrape it off.

 

 

Had to basically tack weld the length of it to burn the rest of the sealer/undercoating out, then was able to put a decent weld down the whole seam.  The little beads off to the side near the middle were little cracks in the sheet metal.

 

 

Then I primed and painted it.  Hopefully it's stronger than stock.

 

 

I can definitely see why this is step one of building a proper rally car.  That whole seam had at most a dozen spot welds holding it together.  And it's the main thing attaching the front suspension, steering, and engine to the rest of the car.

[pontoontodd]

Did a few other things while the car was up on jackstands and I was waiting for trans parts.  Passenger side rack bushing has been coming out for a while, rack doesn't really move but I replaced it.  Got a set of Whiteline rack bushings since they were cheaper than the standard bushings from the dealer.  I was only able to replace the passenger side but the driver's side still looked good.

 

 

Whiteline control arm bushing on the driver's side is looking pretty rough, but that's mainly because the crossmember is pushed back a bit and it's smashing the bushing.  Trimmed that up.  Used a bottle jack to push the crossmember forward and added a couple of tubes from the crossmember to this arm mount, but they interfered with the exhaust so we took them off.  Planning on bracing the front crossmember to the trans crossmember.

 

 

I've noticed this steering rack tab has had a little crack for a long time, and neither of them are fully welded from the factory.

 

 

 

So I welded them.

 

 

 

I also welded a few other seams that were split or looked like they were starting to split.  Trans assembly next.

[pontoontodd]

Rerereassembled the dual range trans.

 

I got a new 1/2 selector/hub assembly.  To replace that the pinion gear stack has to come completely apart.  It is scary how small the keys are that drive third, fourth, and fifth.  Once I got it all apart I found that first and second do not run on needle bearings and the shaft that first runs on was worn down about .020".  This seems to have transferred some material to the inside of the gear.  This was right next to that pinion bearing that failed on me the first time.  And yes, there was some debris or RTV plugging one of the oil holes.  This might explain the rumbling/growling noise at idle.

 

 

I have plenty of other shafts and gears now, for better or worse, so I used a good set and put the new 1/2 selector/hub and the gears that were in the dual range on it.

 

 

 

I made a thinner spacer for the reverse idler, this one is .14" thick.  This allows the idler to go a little past the output gear but it's still mostly engaged.  Figure if the teeth wear/bend a little it will be pushing the idler into that spacer under load rather than popping out of gear.

 

 

Idler is still entirely engaged with the teeth on the input shaft.

 

 

 

I noticed one of the diff bearing outer races had some dents in it.  You can see they're just on one side of the bearing, not all the way around.  I'm not sure if it was dented before, but I thought I should replace it while everything's apart.  Have to check the backlash and pattern anyhow.

 

 

 

Set the backlash and checked the gear pattern.  This is really tedious.  Fortunately with the low range case you can sort of get to the ring gear through the input shaft hole.  Then you're trying to rock the ring gear either with the diff stubs, through the drain plug, or through the input shaft hole without disturbing the dial indicator.  The real problem is you need some preload on the diff bearings, so that has drag, but the pinion shaft has almost no drag.  So it's much easier to check the backlash by turning the pinion shaft.  I wound up double checking backlash by putting an indicator on fifth gear, which is outside the case.  It's about 50% bigger pitch diameter than the pinion gear but with a little math it makes for a much easier and more consistent measurement.  So I think I have decent pattern and backlash.

 

 

 

 

After I did that I tried to put the input shaft assembly in but it wouldn't go in all the way.  Eventually I figured out the gear I put in from the old Outback trans (right) was slightly different than the one that was originally in the dual range (left).  You can see the groove on the OD of the gear on the left and the groove on the face of the gear on the right.  They are only about .010" or .020" different in diameter but one has 38 teeth and the other has 39 teeth.  Good thing it wasn't the opposite, I probably would have assembled it and not even noticed.  So I polished out the inside of the gear from the dual range, unstacked and restacked everything and double checked the gear pattern.

 

 

First test drive went well, there is a slight rattle when coasting in neutral, but I found something on the body rattling a little so I hope that's it.  It shifts nicely and doesn't make any significant noise at low speeds and doesn't leak.

[pontoontodd]

Can't remember...do you have a 1,59:1 low range ? Because normally, the 4,11 ring gear clears the 1,447:1 low range, its standard on EUDM and AUDM.

 

I too have first gear popping out driving down rough grades while engine braking...if you find stiffer springs, let me know !

 

I found some springs from Century (L-30) that are about the same wire diameter but about half the coils and a little longer than the stock detent ball springs (on right), so they're about twice as stiff.  Fortunately pretty easy to swap out with the trans in the car, I replaced all three.  They definitely make a difference in the feel, it is notchier going in and out of gear.  But if I didn't know I had replaced them I'm not sure I would notice the difference, it's not super stiff.  It will be a while until I can do a good rough downhill test but they are promising.  They're cheap but the downside is Century has a $40 minimum order and none of their dealers stock this size.  I had to buy some other springs for other projects so I got them at the same time.

 

 

Finally got the 9003 HID bulbs and installed the early Outback one piece headlights.  Should be more robust, the level on top is nice, and the adjusters are much better than the 99 headlights.  They work well but there seems to be no difference in brightness or pattern between high and low beam.  Plugged into the same wiring and ballasts as the old bulbs, hi/lo worked on those.  What would cause that?

 

[jf1sf5]

I'll wait until you make a steep down hill review before changing for similar springs !

 

And sorry, can't help about the headlights.

[pontoontodd]

Noticed one of the seams on the front crossmember was cracked a bit so I welded that on both sides of the car.

 

 

I drove down to visit a customer in Florida in the 99 Outback.  Car ran fine all the way down, trans is fairly quiet and seems happy.  On the way home I always pass through a national park near the FL/AL border.  This time it was getting dark when I got there and I started driving around in the woods on some dirt roads. I got on a few trails that were fairly narrow and had some crazy jumps built into them (erosion control).  A bunch of these had a drop of about ten feet within fifty feet of the ridge.  I only aired it out a couple times.  One of them had some big ruts right after the landing that bottomed out the suspension.  I used the steering brake in a couple turns and broke the reflective part of the passenger side mirror (already replaced).  The new headlights are definitely low beam in either position, with the extra HIDs they're not too bad but I need to get that figured out.  On pavement it's no big deal but in the woods more light would be better.  The rest of the trip home Tuesday was uneventful.  The next day the left front tire was flat and I eventually figured out the leak was coming from a small crack in the rim on the inside of the wheel.  Got that replaced today.

 

 

I've been talking to a few of my friends lately about a better vehicle for what we're doing than the Subarus.  The idea would be to get/modify something with similar or better ride quality than what we have but have a true low range and locking diffs or at least limited slip and staying fairly narrow.  A better power to weight ratio would be good too.  Small SUVs with IFS like a Blazer or Toyota have shorter CV axles than the Subaru in stock form and would be difficult to improve without making them considerably wider.  Even Raptors with longer arm long travel kits I've seen have only 14" of travel in front if they keep the 4WD, and that's getting really wide.  Rear solid axle would be fairly easy to get some reliable wheel travel with.  A Cherokee might be more reliable than a Blazer but the solid front axle would mean it would have to sit high to get a decent amount of suspension travel.  Perhaps a Ford with TTB would be the best.  Any of those would allow larger tires than the Subaru.  I'm going to try to get a few rides in some prerunner trucks next year to see how well they really ride.  At the moment I'm planning on sticking with the Subarus.  One thought we had was to build internal bypass shocks or just add hydraulic bumpstops so we can soften the suspension a bit.  If you guys have ideas of a better car/truck for what we're doing I'm open to suggestion.

[Numbchux]

There's a reason TTB is so popular with the Baja guys. The Dana 44 version has very long "arms", and is pretty beefy.

 

I've been doing a lot of research on 4WD vans (I just bought a ford conversion van), and there's a company down in California that's getting like 15" of travel from a Dana 50 TTB (much shorter arms than the 44), under a full-size van.

 

I'm leaning towards something like that under mine. It's pretty crucial to get the mounts set up correctly at ride height, as that's what effects all the alignment angles.

[jf1sf5]

I can't see another SUV or 4x4 being lighter than a Subaru. If you install a body lift (1-2"), you can also gain some up travel and won't hit the underbody as often. Limited slip diffs front and rear are available for our Subarus, and even an Eaton/Harrop E-locker since Rally modified a front Nissan D40 he installed at the rear of his Forester in a R180 diff, report to come....