long travel Outbacks or making Subarus faster and more reliable offroad

[pontoontodd]

There's a reason TTB is so popular with the Baja guys. The Dana 44 version has very long "arms", and is pretty beefy.

 

I've been doing a lot of research on 4WD vans (I just bought a ford conversion van), and there's a company down in California that's getting like 15" of travel from a Dana 50 TTB (much shorter arms than the 44), under a full-size van.

 

I'm leaning towards something like that under mine. It's pretty crucial to get the mounts set up correctly at ride height, as that's what effects all the alignment angles.

 

The 2wd and 4wd I beam suspensions definitely give a lot of wheel travel.  Camber change is excessive as you point out.  Probably the only IFS truck/SUV that would easily give more wheel travel than the Subaru at a similar width.  I've seen people convert the front of their Jeepspeed Cherokees to TTB.

 

I can't see another SUV or 4x4 being lighter than a Subaru. If you install a body lift (1-2"), you can also gain some up travel and won't hit the underbody as often. Limited slip diffs front and rear are available for our Subarus, and even an Eaton/Harrop E-locker since Rally modified a front Nissan D40 he installed at the rear of his Forester in a R180 diff, report to come....

 

Surprisingly, lots of SUVs and small pickups are lighter than the Outback, like similar year Wranglers, S10s, and Rangers.  Probably nothing with a full body and as much or more interior volume than the Outback is going to be lighter though.

 

Trackers are much lighter but have much less power and the shorter wheelbase probably wouldn't ride as well.  One of my friends has one of those he claims rides like the Subaru but I haven't seen it in action.

 

You are right about the body lift, that would be easy and improve approach, departure, and breakover angles and should allow more travel and/or larger tires.  Right now I think my biggest structural problem is the leverage the front crossmember has on the body with the stock subframe spacers.  With taller spacers that would be even worse.  The 2002 doesn't appear to have any spacers though, so that might be a better car to body lift.  I've been thinking about just building a new trans crossmember that would connect to the engine crossmember, if I did a 6MT swap I would probably do that.

 

Even the limited slip rear and lockable center diff of the 6MT/R180 from an STI would be a big improvement.  I rarely get into situations where lockers would help but it would be nice.  Perhaps the VDC would be an adequate substitute as scalman says but I've heard that makes engine/trans swaps much more difficult.

[pontoontodd]

I think the main structural problem we've had with the Outback might be caused by the leverage the lower arms have on the front crossmember.  The crossmember is spaced out from the body on the 99 and that spacer isn't very long.  This is where the body cracked and the lower arms and engine seem to keep getting pushed back.  I tried bracing the crossmember close to the control arm mounts but that didn't clear the exhaust.  So I cut a couple of tubes that push against and bolt to the engine crossmember and trans crossmember.

 

 

If I do a 6MT swap I think I will just make a trans crossmember from scratch that bolts to the engine crossmember.

 

Also, I've uploaded a few more videos to youtube recently and have at least one more to go but I can't seem to post them here anymore.  Even old videos posted on the forum that used to show up are just blank spaces.  Anyone know what's going on?

[scalman]

good thing you showing weak points on this model. did you saw what good or bad points 2nd gen outback have ? and how thats better or worse then your model? would like to find weak points on my model so i could make that more strong

Edited January 3, 2018 by scalman

[pontoontodd]

good thing you showing weak points on this model. did you saw what good or bad points 2nd gen outback have ? and how thats better or worse then your model? would like to find weak points on my model so i could make that more strong

 

We haven't beaten on a second gen outback yet.  I'll let you know when we do.

[pontoontodd]

So the spacebar doesn't work when I try to reply using Edge but works in Firefox. Videos show up in Edge but not in Firefox.

Here are a few videos I've edited and uploaded recently. I've got another one to put up, maybe tonight. Let me know what you think of the videos and if you can see them in the post. Always appreciate feedback regarding what parts of the videos you like or don't like, are they too long, too short, etc.

 

On the first day of our trip back from the V2R we spent most of the day at Flaming Gorge in Wyoming. My favorite place overall that we've gone trail riding. Lots of different trails, most fairly easy, some difficult climbs to try, awesome scenery and wildlife. We still had a big crack in the body so we were trying to take it easy.

 

On the second day we spent a lot of the day in Dinosaur National Monument in Colorado. Easily the most scenic place I've ever driven off pavement, but there's basically just one long dirt road and it's not challenging. We still had a big crack in the body so we were trying to take it easy.

 

Two week trip my wife and I took to California and back in November in the 99 Outback. First time I really used the low range, at about the one minute mark I put it in low range for the rest of the climb. Most of this is near the UT/AZ border.

Edited January 6, 2018 by pontoontodd

[pontoontodd]

Video from our trip to Badlands off road park around Thanksgiving.  Couple of good jumps at the start and you can see a few spots where I tried the dual range:

[jf1sf5]

Can't see the vids here but watched them on youtube, some cool footage, thanks ! Did you finally get up the ultimate climb ?

[pontoontodd]

Can't see the vids here but watched them on youtube, some cool footage, thanks ! Did you finally get up the ultimate climb ?

 

The near vertical rock wall?  No.  Once we got the car upright and all four tires on the wall they would just slip.  Didn't try airing down, should have tried straddling one of the ruts.

[scalman]

do you using 1st gear on low range or D. ? people say 1st gear locks center to 50/50 on those older active AWD sustems. so it must be better for offroad to use 1st gear.

[scalman]

do you using 1st gear on low range or D. ? if your auto or manual ? people say 1st gear locks center to 50/50 on those older active AWD sustems. so it must be better for offroad to use 1st gear. if manual not sure how that works.

[pontoontodd]

do you using 1st gear on low range or D. ? people say 1st gear locks center to 50/50 on those older active AWD sustems. so it must be better for offroad to use 1st gear.

 

It's a five speed manual, so first gear.  I don't know if that's true about the automatics but I think you can easily wire a toggle switch to manually lock the center diff.

[scalman]

and how its crawls now on low gear vs before  ? as much as i found 1st gen outback 4eat on 1st gear only locks center. so at least thats one way to go better offroad. on other gears its just normal active AWD. manuals should have that 50/50 kinda and with low gear should be even better. still its not that much low isnt it ? could it be modified to be more lower ratio ?

[pontoontodd]

and how its crawls now on low gear vs before  ? as much as i found 1st gen outback 4eat on 1st gear only locks center. so at least thats one way to go better offroad. on other gears its just normal active AWD. manuals should have that 50/50 kinda and with low gear should be even better. still its not that much low isnt it ? could it be modified to be more lower ratio ?

 

It's much better at low speeds with the dual range.  On relatively smooth climbs it's great, you can go up long climbs at half throttle that I would have probably stalled out on at full throttle without the low range.  On really uneven ground when you start lifting tires the limitations of open diffs and low speeds (no momentum) become obvious.

 

Mine has a 1.6:1 ratio, which is the most reduction made for them that I know.  Keep in mind that means you not only have 60% more torque into the trans, the engine RPM is 60% higher at the same wheel speed, so you're making more torque too.  Even NA Subaru engines don't seem to make a lot of low end torque, certainly not the EZ30.  I think something with more reduction could fit.  Also I have the 4.11 ring and pinions, you could swap 4.44s in the trans and diff but it's a lot of work for 8% more reduction.

[pontoontodd]

I've been talking to a bunch of people about other cars/SUVs that would be better for what we're doing.  Without going wide I don't think we're going to find anything that rides better than the Subarus with more interior space for similar money.

We mocked up wider control arms in the front on one side of my 99 Outback to see what that would do for us.  Right now bump travel is limited by the tire hitting the part of the body that supports the fender and strut tower.  Since this is the part of the body we started to rip off at the V2R it is obviously important structurally.  Maybe we could cut it out and replace it with tubing and get a couple inches more up travel.  We would have to go about 7" wider per side to get the tire entirely outside that part of the body, and it still wouldn't clear when steered at full bump.

With a control arm about 3" wider than what we have now, we would have another inch or two of droop travel for a similar CV axle angle.  The other advantage of widening the arms is that the strut would be at more of an angle so the spring could probably go alongside the tire rather than having to be above the tire.  That would make more suspension travel and spring selection easier.  Not really worth making longer axles and modifying the struts for another inch or two of travel though.

In the rear there are similar issues, so for now I'm going to leave it at the current width.

I do have some ideas for improving the shocks that I'm going to try to get parts for this week.  It really is already a huge improvement from stock, and it's not too often we have to slow down because roads are too rough.

 

I put a different AC compressor on the 99 Outback, added some R134a, and it's still reading the same pressure (50-60psi) on the low and high side with the compressor running.  Is there a chance the orifice is blown out or something?   What else would cause this aside from the compressor not compressing?

[Numbchux]

Yea, CV axles is usually the limiting factor with long-travel independent. I was really tempted by a long-travel kit for the older Toyotas that uses off-the-shelf axles for a T100, but I think I'm moving away from my 4Runner.

 

You might be able to find an STi axle or something that would give you an inch or so....

[pontoontodd]

Yea, CV axles is usually the limiting factor with long-travel independent. I was really tempted by a long-travel kit for the older Toyotas that uses off-the-shelf axles for a T100, but I think I'm moving away from my 4Runner.

 

You might be able to find an STi axle or something that would give you an inch or so....

 

The CV axles aren't limiting us in the Subarus.  It's more of an issue of tire-body (structural body, not just fenders) clearance at full bump.  At full droop, it's a bunch of things.  Tie rods are binding.  Springs can only be so long to fit above the tire when fully compressed, so they can only extend so far.  CVs are close to binding too. 

 

Subarus have much longer CV axles than most other cars or even IFS trucks.  The only thing I can think of that would be similar are VW/Audi.  Thought about going Mitsubishi, like an Outlander, they basically have an EVO drivetrain and can supposedly take 400hp.  Biggest problem is the front CV axles are short.  Perhaps with rzeppa joints on both ends and a ball spline you could get good travel, I doubt that would be cheap though.

[Numbchux]

Yea, I didn't word that very well. I meant that the limiting factor is the length of the axle. Lengthening a control arm, or tie rod isn't difficult for a half decent fabricator, but lengthening an axle shaft.....

 

That's why I was thinking maybe an STi axle might give you a bit extra width, but probably not much.

 

 

 

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think an older ('86-'95) Toyota might be a good option. Those T-100 axles make for a relatively easy long-travel setup (have to lengthen all 4 control arms and both tie rods).  Total Chaos claims 12" w/ 4WD out of their kit. The sky is the limit when it comes to engine/transmission/transfer case/axle options. Also the dual a-arm design means shocks are very universal, so really high-end shocks are relatively cheap.

http://www.chaosfab.com/86-95-4WD-Pickup-4Runner-T100-Long-Travel-Suspension-Kit-95200.html

[pontoontodd]

The STI axles aren't much longer, less than an inch if I remember right.  Just making longer axle bars isn't too expensive, the real problem is to fit longer axles in most IFS trucks or FWD cars you have to widen the suspension too, so the thing winds up seven feet wide to get a decent amount of travel.  Probably not a big deal out west, maybe even desirable, but a lot of the trails east of the Mississippi are tight.

 

I've thought about those Toyotas.  They are generally reliable, and as you say you could get the sort of transfer case and lockers you'd want.  You can obviously fit bigger tires.  And you're right about the shocks being much cheaper/simpler than struts.  We are already making 12" of wheel travel though.  The Toyotas don't have much power stock, even with the six cylinder, and according to Wikipedia the 4Runner is a foot shorter than the Outback.  Overall it would probably be cheaper than what we've done with better crawling ability but a worse power/weight ratio.  I would like to get a ride in one of those.  What 4.3 do you have in yours, GM?

[pontoontodd]

The cruise control is mostly not working now.  For months it has shut off every hour or so.  Now it's every minute or so, sometimes the light doesn't even come on when you push the main cruise button.  I have the button from the 2002 donor, going to try that first.  Then try to find the relay.  Hoping it's not a wiring or signal issue.  Anybody have this problem before?

 

Also still wondering what would cause the AC pressure to be same on high and low side other than compressor not compressing, any advice on that would be good too.

[scalman]

but you have already good amount of travel why you need even more ? or you wanna different type of suspension and arms and all just custom? but what purpose ? better offroad , better rallying ?

[pontoontodd]

but you have already good amount of travel why you need even more ? or you wanna different type of suspension and arms and all just custom? but what purpose ? better offroad , better rallying ?

 

Hahhahahaha.  You're obviously not American or you'd know more and bigger is always better!

 

Seriously though, there are times when we have to slow down because the trail is too rough for our current suspension.  Not anywhere near as bad as the stock suspension.  In something with say 20" of travel and 33-37" tires you could go much faster over rough ground than we do.  As an extreme example the winner of the Vegas to Reno runs it at twice our average speed.  There are street legal prerunners that are basically a trophy truck with air conditioning, so that's not just race cars.

 

The bigger reason would probably be to get a real low range/lockers, bigger tires, and more interior room.  It would be nice to have a large enough area behind the front seats to sleep comfortably.

[Numbchux]

The STI axles aren't much longer, less than an inch if I remember right.  Just making longer axle bars isn't too expensive, the real problem is to fit longer axles in most IFS trucks or FWD cars you have to widen the suspension too, so the thing winds up seven feet wide to get a decent amount of travel.  Probably not a big deal out west, maybe even desirable, but a lot of the trails east of the Mississippi are tight.

 

I've thought about those Toyotas.  They are generally reliable, and as you say you could get the sort of transfer case and lockers you'd want.  You can obviously fit bigger tires.  And you're right about the shocks being much cheaper/simpler than struts.  We are already making 12" of wheel travel though.  The Toyotas don't have much power stock, even with the six cylinder, and according to Wikipedia the 4Runner is a foot shorter than the Outback.  Overall it would probably be cheaper than what we've done with better crawling ability but a worse power/weight ratio.  I would like to get a ride in one of those.  What 4.3 do you have in yours, GM?

 

Yea, the ones that are fairly easy to long travel were only available with the 2.4 22RE, or the 3.sl0. I do have a GM 4.3 from a '92 S-10 Blazer, which fits very well. And I've got a Toyota tcase in the stock location.

 

The T100/Tacoma/4Runner 3.4 is a common swap (which I'm thinking of doing as I'm having issues with the FI on the 4.3), I've seen the Lexus 4.0 V8 done, not to mention every sort of domestic V8.

[scalman]

and you wanna all that from that poor old outback ? 

[pontoontodd]

Yea, the ones that are fairly easy to long travel were only available with the 2.4 22RE, or the 3.sl0. I do have a GM 4.3 from a '92 S-10 Blazer, which fits very well. And I've got a Toyota tcase in the stock location.

 

The T100/Tacoma/4Runner 3.4 is a common swap (which I'm thinking of doing as I'm having issues with the FI on the 4.3), I've seen the Lexus 4.0 V8 done, not to mention every sort of domestic V8.

 

How about just a T100 with the 3.4, then you wouldn't have to swap engines or axles?  Not that the 3.4 made a ton of power either.

Edited January 16, 2018 by pontoontodd

[pontoontodd]

and you wanna all that from that poor old outback ? 

 

That's why I'm considering something different.