long travel Outbacks or making Subarus faster and more reliable offroad

[pontoontodd]

Video from our trip to Arkansas/Missouri:

 

We're planning on going back in a couple of weeks, hopefully it will be drier.

 

Embedding videos still isn't working for me, if anyone knows how to make that work I'd like to know.

[pontoontodd]

I got a 2001 H6 Outback from Portland with 157k miles for $1800.  It is super clean, no rust, interior is very good.  I paid to get it shipped to Illinois, which was almost $1000.  If I had flown out there and driven it back it would have cost me nearly that much in flight, fuel, hotel rooms, etc.  Not the best time of year for a road trip from Oregon to nothern Illinois either.  My plan is to have my wife drive it. 

 

 

 

The only problem the owner mentioned is that it does leak oil.  Not really while it's running but when it sits overnight there are a few small puddles under it.  He thought his mechanic said it was the head gaskets.  Looked like it might be one of those but also valve covers and oil cooler.  While I'm waiting for the title and plates I changed the oil in the engine, front diff, and auto trans.  Pulled the oil pans off the engine and trans and resealed those.  Replaced the pickup filter in the trans.  It had a fair amount of debris in it and there was a little in the trans pan too.  Hard to get good pictures.

 

 

 

Is this normal?  At least half the shavings were magnetic, the other half were mostly copper colored.  Who knows how long the trans pan and that filter have been on, perhaps the life of the car, although it does look like someone resealed the pan with silicone in excess of what the factory would do.

 

I also replaced the valve cover gaskets and spark plugs by jacking up the engine and pushing it to one side and then the other.  Replaced the seal under the oil cooler.  Replaced the spin on filters for engine and trans.  Replaced the air filter, serpentine belt, and idler pulleys.  It needs a front tie rod and boot and I plan on replacing the rear diff fluid also.

 

While it was up on stands the passenger side lower control arm rear bushing leaked out some clear grease.  Are these fluid filled or something?  There wasn't a lot, and I didn't see anything above it leaking down onto the bushing.  It's clear and fairly sticky, it's not oil, doesn't really smell.

 

Then I will start off roading the white 2002 Outback.  It needs skidplates and long travel shocks/struts and probably bumpers.  Eventually I plan on swapping in a 6MT and R180, but I might do that to the 99 first.  I tried fitting a 15" wheel from the 99 Outback on it and it doesn't clear the front brakes.  Does anyone know of a 15" wheel that will fit over the brakes on a 2000-2004 Outback?  Worst case I can put 99 front brakes on it, they seem to be adequate.  I would like as much sidewall as I can get and I already have a pile of 15" wheels and mud tires.

[scalman]

cant wait when you will put long travels on that 2002. brakes from 2000-2001 outback goes smaller and then they went bigger from 2001. so you could change those bigger ones to smaller ones from 2000-2001 then you could fit 15'' . but i like better brakes more. 

as much as i know you cant put 15'' rims anymore on those updated brakes.

btw what happened to white H6 front bumper ? half of it gone ? that's my type of  front bumper there haha. 

hmm maybe your new outback has smaller brakes still as its 2001. not sure about H6 models but could be worth checking.

Edited March 14, 2018 by scalman

[pontoontodd]

cant wait when you will put long travels on that 2002. brakes from 2000-2001 outback goes smaller and then they went bigger from 2001. so you could change those bigger ones to smaller ones from 2000-2001 then you could fit 15'' . but i like better brakes more. 

as much as i know you cant put 15'' rims anymore on those updated brakes.

btw what happened to white H6 front bumper ? half of it gone ? that's my type of  front bumper there haha. 

hmm maybe your new outback has smaller brakes still as its 2001. not sure about H6 models but could be worth checking.

 

I tried fitting a 99 Outback 15" alloy wheel on the 2001 Outback and it did not clear the caliper.  I looked on Rock Auto and they show the same caliper part numbers for 1999-2002 Outback with 2.5 H4 or 3.0 H6.  There is a change in 10/2001 (2002 model year) in some brands.  The rotor part number in 99/2000 is different than 2001/2002 though.  So I guess I need to double check.

Looked on Subaru dealer website and they show the same calipers and rotors for 2001 Outback 2.5 and 3.0.  There are three different part numbers for the front calipers and rotors for 2002 (same 2.5 and 3.0).  They all say they fit 15 and 16", one is the same as the 2001 part number.

 

White Outback front bumper was like that when I bought it.  It's going in the trash soon, plastic bumpers are a waste of time.

[Numbchux]

00-02 should have the 276mm front rotors, which will fit under 15s without modification.

 

03-04 went to 294mm, which will not (without modification). With grinding on the Caliper, it can be done. This is the only picture I currently have uploaded, but I've had these '98 Outback 5-spoke 15s on my '03 and '04 (pictured on the blue '03 here):

20160508_182216 by Numbchux, on Flickr

[pontoontodd]

00-02 should have the 276mm front rotors, which will fit under 15s without modification.

 

03-04 went to 294mm, which will not (without modification). With grinding on the Caliper, it can be done. This is the only picture I currently have uploaded, but I've had these '98 Outback 5-spoke 15s on my '03 and '04 (pictured on the blue '03 here):

20160508_182216 by Numbchux, on Flickr

 

Thanks for that info.  I will double check on the white 2002 sometime soon.  At least I know what rotor diameter should work now.

[pontoontodd]

cruise faulting and rev limiting tied to CEL?

 

sounds like a VSS issue.

 

Cruise is still acting up.  Will usually stay on for 5-10 minutes at first, then shorter periods of time as you drive.  Often seems to shut off when you hit a bump.  Sometimes after a while it will just not turn on, press the main button and the light doesn't come on.  At that point you can turn off the ignition, restart the car, and the cruise still won't stay on.  It's like the module is overheating or something.

I've tried two different main buttons, two different cruise control modules, and two different cruise actuators and it does the same thing.  Is there another relay for the cruise (aside from the ignition relay)?  There is no indication of one in the factory service manual or on the Subaru parts website but I could have sworn I saw a drawing showing one under the dash not long ago.

I could see it being a VSS signal issue but the speedo is always rock solid so I think the VSS itself is good.  My next thoughts are running a wire from that at the speedo to the cruise module or wiring in a toggle switch to power the cruise module bypassing the main switch.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.  About ready to just buy an aftermarket cruise control for the darn thing.

[scalman]

i think something in your car that cruise control dont like . something dont match or dont fit or missing as you swapped engines. could it be something there that you left maybe ? 

[pontoontodd]

i think something in your car that cruise control dont like . something dont match or dont fit or missing as you swapped engines. could it be something there that you left maybe ? 

 

It's probably related to the engine swap.  Cruise worked perfectly for the first eight months or so after the engine swap.  Could be VSS or just power to the cruise being intermittent, wire came loose or shorted.  Most of the cruise wiring is intact from the donor car harness from the TCU to the CCM to the actuator, not too much was spliced.

[pontoontodd]

Cruise has been shutting off every couple minutes lately.  The light on the main switch goes out, cruise stops working, press button and it will stay on for another couple minutes.  Often goes out when hitting a bump.  This whole time I've been trying to think what would cause that.  With the actuator unplugged, the cruise will still turn on and the light stays on, so it's probably not that or any of that wiring.  The main button is just a momentary pushbutton to turn the system on, so if that was shorting it would turn the cruise on and off, not just off.  I tried unplugging the VSS from the trans but wasn't able to.

I was getting fed up with it last week, most of our trips to go off roading are thousands of miles so cruise is really nice to have.  Ordered an aftermarket cruise control kit from Summit, figured it would take a while to get here and maybe I could fix the stock cruise system in the meantime.

Ran a new wire from the fuse to the cruise control module (CCM) main power (green/black).  That didn't help but while I was doing that I cleaned up the wiring a little bit.

I started reading the instructions for the aftermarket cruise and realized that might not even work with some of the stock wiring and switches (brake/clutch/set/resume/cancel).  Then I thought the other thing that might be causing it to shut off is losing ground.  So I spliced in a new ground wire to a nearby screw.  Test drove it for maybe 20 minutes last night and the cruise stayed on the whole time, so I think I've fixed it.

My cousins told me that 90% of automotive problems are electrical and 90% of electrical problems are a bad ground, so 81% of all automotive problems are a bad ground.  Exaggeration, but I should have tried that first.

[jf1sf5]

Thats excellent news, finally fixed !

[pontoontodd]

Thats excellent news, finally fixed !

 

It's nice to have working again, drove it for an hour or so on the tollway today and worked great.

Not sure if I ever got back to you but the detent springs do seem to hold the transmission in gear much better, don't think it's popped out since I put those in and we've been on some rough trails.

[jf1sf5]

Do you remember the length and spring rate of the detent springs you installed, I would only need one for first gear though, might wait until another one gets weak.

 

I don't know if you are looking for better traction like VDC but I am trying to find a way to install a traction control, for off road use only, based on Arduino.

 

http://rcarduino.blogspot.ch/2013/06/rc-arduino-traction-control-traction.html?m=1

[pontoontodd]

Do you remember the length and spring rate of the detent springs you installed, I would only need one for first gear though, might wait until another one gets weak.

 

I don't know if you are looking for better traction like VDC but I am trying to find a way to install a traction control, for off road use only, based on Arduino.

 

http://rcarduino.blogspot.ch/2013/06/rc-arduino-traction-control-traction.html?m=1

 

1.23" 140#/in

 

Interested in the traction control, always thought that would be a cool aftermarket kit, keep me informed.  Usually we're going fast enough that it's not an issue but every once in a while you get two diagonal tires off the ground and then you're going nowhere.

[pontoontodd]

A few guys from town I know went down to Kentucky to ride some off road parks.  I decided to meet them down there with the 99 Outback.  It was supposed to snow and rain all day Saturday so I knew they wouldn't be riding.  Drove down to Kentucky, snow and rain from Indy down the rest of the way.  On the Mountain Parkway there was an accident with a fire truck parked sideways blocking the road.  Fortunately there was a u turn spot so I went back to the nearest exit.  I took some back roads around the accident.  Along the way I decided to hit some dirt roads.  One quickly came to a long rough climb which I was able to do in high range.  At the top was a big muddy rutted out area.  The ground seemed firm but I decided this was a good time to turn around since I was by myself.  Not long after that the radio shut off and the battery light came on.  OBD showed 18V.  Popped the hood and didn't see anything obvious, all fuses looked good.  With the brights, AC, and defroster on the voltage would stay under 14 if I kept the RPMs fairly low (2500 I think).  Drove that way to the Mine Made park campground.
The next morning it was running 14-15V when I started it up.  We talked to the owner for about an hour, he told us there were tons of trails and dirt roads all over the surrounding five counties if you knew where to go.  They have 100 miles of marked trails.  Couple guys drove their Polaris RZR XP 900, another rode his stock Honda Rincon.  On the open trails the Rincon never went over 30mph so we had to keep waiting for him or just follow him.  The Outback and RZR were pretty well matched for the high speed open sections.  We drove through a few shallow rock stream crossings, at one point got to a deep river crossing with a blacktop highway on the other side.  Found a bunch of dead ends, many of the main trails were on the GPS but a lot of the roads the GPS showed were gated.  Fairly early on the voltage dropped just below 12V and the blower motor mostly stopped working. 

 

 

After a couple hours we got to the most difficult trails, which weren't too bad at first, just narrow.  On one trail we were on for miles I kept hoping we didn't have to go back on it.  I'm still surprised I didn't get any major body damage or lose any glass.  Squeezed between lots of trees and rocks.  These trails are mostly on ridge lines so there is no place to pull over or turn around.  Which made us wonder how that works when two groups are going opposite ways.  We were switchbacking up the side of a mountain on one of these and came to a tight greasy switchback and they both stopped for the turn.  I had to stop fairly close to the turn which means I didn't have a good run at it and didn't make it up the turn.  One rear tire slid over the edge of the trail.  We spent at least an hour pulling, jacking, shoveling to get the car back on the trail.  At one point the Outback was very close to sliding down the side of the mountain and taking the RZR with it.  We did get it back on the trail though and went back the way we came.  Got a flat tire slashing a sidewall on a rock.  We headed down some easy trails/roads to a blacktop road and took that a few miles back to the campground.  Checked some things on the car, tried to plug the tire, ate some food, and headed back out.  I suggested just riding easy trails while I was there and they could try the hard stuff the next few days.  We tried a few sections of the park and outside the park that weren't mapped.  Then we tried going back to the dirt road we left the park on in the morning as the owner said there were lots of trails off of that.  We went on a bunch of trails we hadn't been on but didn't make it back to that dirt road since we wanted to get back to the campground by dark.  On the way back we went on some side trails.  We were getting close to the campground and the guy driving the RZR decided to try a downhill side trail that was a little overgrown, which is usually a good sign it's a dead end.  As soon as I started going down I thought it was a bad idea, the trail just kept getting steeper downhill.  I should have tried backing up near the start but decided at that point to just go to the bottom and see where it went.  Just went to a couple of short dead end trails.  I was able to climb all the way back up in low range but it was an eighth to quarter mile long climb in low range the whole way.  Then I couldn't shift it into high range.  When we got back to the campground we tried hammering and prying on the trans lever and could not get it to shift into high range.  Fortunately All Drive got back to me since it was the morning over there and said I shouldn't drive over 40kph in low range.  I checked the wiring to the alternator again and it seemed good, one pin 12V all the time, another one 12V with ignition on, fuse wasn't blown.
The next morning I drove to the nearest Uhaul dealer at a leisurely 40kph (that's about 25mph for you fractional types).  While driving on the road it was a little over 12V.  Loaded it up on a car trailer and towed it back to Illinois.  Cost $700 plus about an extra $100 in gas compared to driving the Outback.  Would have been about $500 from London or Lexington but that would have been hours of driving in low range.

 

 

 

At this point I'm planning on just putting a stock trans in it.  There's one with 70k miles in Nebraska for $700 and one with 136k miles in Chicago for $400.  Doesn't sound like I can get the one in Nebraska by the end of the week and it would cost twice as much with shipping so I might just pick up the one in Chicago.  Is there a newer trans I could put in it with a 4.11 ring and pinion with more overdrive in fifth?  I think my Outback is .848 or something, the taller fifth that happened to be in that dual range was nice.  Just not sure if I get something with the ratios I want that the speed sensor, etc will be the same as mine.  Thinking if it's newer it will be easier to find one with low miles.
I will rebuild the dual range even if just to sell it, but it just doesn't seem like it can take much abuse, which sort of defeats the point.  And the other Subarus we usually trail ride with don't have dual range either.  I really need to get a 6MT and R180 and make a lower first and second.

[pontoontodd]

According to Wikipedia the 2012+ non turbo 5MT also has a 4.11 final drive, similar first, and taller fifth gear.  Cars101 also says 12+ Imprezas have these ratios.  12-16 Impreza manuals seem to be all over for $500-800 with under 30k miles (even under 3k!) on them.  Is the shifter, clutch, speed sensor, bellhousing, trans mount, driveshaft, axles, etc the same as my 1999?  The ones I have seen pictures of (12-16 Impreza) have no axle stubs, would I need 12-16 front CV axles and would those fit my front hubs?  Not worried about ABS, that's long gone on my car.  I have plenty of axle stubs for the older 5MTs and at least one pair for a 4EAT, would those work?  Car-part.com shows 12/13 do not interchange with 14-16, what is the difference?

[jf1sf5]

That seemed to be a real adventure.

 

When possible, it is allways better to stay in high range as the low range pinions are not well lubricated on long steep climbs. Some guys have added oil feeders to help preventing low range issues.

 

http://offroadsubarus.com/showthread.php?t=5529

[pontoontodd]

That seemed to be a real adventure.

 

When possible, it is allways better to stay in high range as the low range pinions are not well lubricated on long steep climbs. Some guys have added oil feeders to help preventing low range issues.

 

http://offroadsubarus.com/showthread.php?t=5529

 

You could call it an adventure.  Considering walking out of the woods and leaving your car at least twice in one day takes some of the fun out of it though.  That last climb was definitely the longest steepest climb I've ever done.  Not very rough but definitely needed low range the whole way.  That said, I don't see why a minute of low range use should cause a problem.  I know it's not getting any oil from gravity at a steep angle but there's a gallon of oil in the trans and there are already channels and holes directing oil off the ring gear to the low range.  I didn't see where in that thread they were modifying the oiling but I have heard of people doing that.  I have really tried to be easy on it in low range considering I've broken first and reverse without low range.  I have never dropped the clutch with the H6 and 95% of the time I'm in low range is at half throttle.  I just think the 5MT is inadequate for what I'm trying to do.  As I was warned.

[jf1sf5]

Low range oil feeders at page 15

 

http://offroadsubarus.com/showthread.php?t=5529&page=15

[pontoontodd]

Low range oil feeders at page 15

 

http://offroadsubarus.com/showthread.php?t=5529&page=15

 

Thanks for the shortcut.  I would be nervous about something leaking and pumping all the oil out of the trans.

 

Tried a different alternator this morning.  Last year both of these alternators were putting out about 14V.  Now they are both putting out about 12.5V.  They're definitely doing something, without the engine running voltage is about 11.5V.  Checked the three wire plug at the alternator again and the middle one is still 12V all the time (battery), another one is 12V with ignition on.  What might be causing this?

 

I've been getting a lot of help on the late model trans option in this thread:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/166503-late-model-5mt-into-99-outback/

I will probably check one out today or tomorrow.

[pontoontodd]

I got a 2013 Impreza 5MT TY758V45AA.  First thing I noticed is that the speed sensor hole is not machined.  Some pictures of them I've seen online (now) have an allen plug, others are just not machined.  Figured I could machine it or worst case use an old case half and adjust the side bearing.

 

 

Checked the 4EAT spline stub and it fits the differential splines and bore nicely.  The seal is much larger though, figure I could switch the seals or buy/make a sleeve.  Case is not sitting flat in this picture.

 

 

Finally got the case split open and there is no speedo gear cut on the 3/4 double gear.

 

 

For what it's worth the gears measure the same width as the '99 5MT gears.  Anyone want a 2013 Impreza 5MT with 39k miles on it?

 

I really need to step up the 6MT/R180 conversion.  Anyone with a good lead on that let me know, I see a bunch of them on NASIOC.  In the short run there is a '99 5MT with 175k miles on it in town for $300 or one 70 miles away with 136k miles for $420 I will probably buy.

 

Also still need to figure out the alternator voltage issue.

[Numbchux]

Check out Oak Leaf Auto Salvage. They're in northern WI, and specialize in Subarus. I've seen several complete 6MT/r180 kits sold for pretty reasonable. I bought the front clip to fix my Outback from them, and they strapped it all to a pallet and shipped it to my work (we had a loading dock at the AutoZone I worked at at the time).

 

You might also check out TSS Fab, they were trying to put together a batch of 6MT 4.444 ring/pinions on their facebook page this winter. I'm not sure if it ever happened, though.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Numbchux

[pontoontodd]

My wife's been driving the 2001 OB H6 from Oregon for a couple days now and at most one night there were a few drops of oil or trans fluid under the car.  Nothing this morning.  So I probably got lucky and the head gaskets aren't leaking.  It still needs a tie rod and rack boot and have to put the drip tray back under the front end but hopefully will be a reliable driver for a few years.

[pontoontodd]

Drove about 90 miles to pick up this gem.  2005 Forester 5MT with 52 miles on it, they said it was out of a crash test car.  Funny how much cleaner it is than the 2013.

 

 

 

 

4EAT stubs fit, seals in the trans are too big.  I ordered some 30x35x13mm ground bearing races that I can hopefully press on the stubs to make it seal.  One of the switches has the wiring cut, I have a few of those lying around.

 

Impreza drove out there and back great, almost four hours round trip.  Head gaskets seem to be holding.

[pontoontodd]

Check out Oak Leaf Auto Salvage. They're in northern WI, and specialize in Subarus. I've seen several complete 6MT/r180 kits sold for pretty reasonable. I bought the front clip to fix my Outback from them, and they strapped it all to a pallet and shipped it to my work (we had a loading dock at the AutoZone I worked at at the time).

 

You might also check out TSS Fab, they were trying to put together a batch of 6MT 4.444 ring/pinions on their facebook page this winter. I'm not sure if it ever happened, though.

 

Thanks for the tips, I need to get on this, I've been watching TSS fab and haven't seen any updates on the 4.44 / 4.86 R&P.

Clear out your PMs please.