long travel Outbacks or making Subarus faster and more reliable offroad

[pontoontodd]

Friend of mine has a 2001 or 2002 Outback a neighbor gave him with front end damage.  Broke one of the cam gears and plenty of things in front of that.  He is probably just going to part it out.  Different color than either of mine and it's an EJ25/4EAT.  I'm thinking I'll take the good corner lights off and probably the power seat switch.  Anything else on these cars that tends to fail that I should grab?  He is probably going to take the front struts.  We'll take the CV axles and suspension if it's not all rusted together.  Probably just complete rear subframe with diff if possible.  Auto trans for the EJ is different than the one for the EZ30 according to the FSM.

[Gloyale]

Friend of mine has a 2001 or 2002 Outback a neighbor gave him with front end damage.  Broke one of the cam gears and plenty of things in front of that.  He is probably just going to part it out.  Different color than either of mine and it's an EJ25/4EAT.  I'm thinking I'll take the good corner lights off and probably the power seat switch.  Anything else on these cars that tends to fail that I should grab?  He is probably going to take the front struts.  We'll take the CV axles and suspension if it's not all rusted together.  Probably just complete rear subframe with diff if possible.  Auto trans for the EJ is different than the one for the EZ30 according to the FSM.

 

It's just different thickness and # of plates in some of the clutches, springs int eh accumulators different etc.....

 

But when it comes down to it they are really the same trans.  I've used a Forester trans in an LLbean H6 by swapping int he front diff to 4.11.......it runs fine, no codes.

[Numbchux]

Yea, only major difference is the VDC cars.

[pontoontodd]

00-02 should have the 276mm front rotors, which will fit under 15s without modification.

 

03-04 went to 294mm, which will not (without modification). With grinding on the Caliper, it can be done. This is the only picture I currently have uploaded, but I've had these '98 Outback 5-spoke 15s on my '03 and '04 (pictured on the blue '03 here):

20160508_182216 by Numbchux, on Flickr

 

Did some measuring on the white 2002 OB H6 LL Bean wagon.  Discs are 294mm and 15" alloy wheels from the 99 OB definitely don't fit.  So I'll probably get 99 front brakes for that one.

 

The coilover reservoir shocks I have from the a-arm setup have 6.5" travel so I can get about 10.5" of wheel travel in the rear with those, shouldn't be too hard to adapt.  Droop travel seems limited by the inboard CV joint bottoming out, which it does on the rear strut suspension at full droop as well.  Stage two will probably be getting 8.5" travel shocks (maybe just shafts and bodies to put on these) and making longer lateral links.  At some point I'll see how much longer they can be with the stock CV axles, I'm guessing an inch or so like we did in the front.  One of those links is really short so an extra inch would make a big difference.  Thinking then I could get 13-14" of wheel travel.

Edited May 3, 2018 by pontoontodd

[jf1sf5]

That would be some huge wheel travel !

[scalman]

Im trying not to think too much how awesome would that be haha.

[Gloyale]

  Droop travel seems limited by the inboard CV joint bottoming out, which it does on the rear strut suspension at full droop as well. 

 

I am confused.  Seems like at full "droop", the CV should be either close to hyper-extending or binding at the edge of the cup if not overextending.  

 

I think of "bottoming out" as when the suspension is compressed and the axle is straight into the cup, into the deep part of the cup.

 

Is there something about the 00+ geometry that compresses the axle at droop rather than extend it?

[pontoontodd]

I am confused.  Seems like at full "droop", the CV should be either close to hyper-extending or binding at the edge of the cup if not overextending.  

 

I think of "bottoming out" as when the suspension is compressed and the axle is straight into the cup, into the deep part of the cup.

 

Is there something about the 00+ geometry that compresses the axle at droop rather than extend it?

 

Yes, the inner CV bottoms out.  I think this is mainly because the lateral links are shorter than the CV axles.  On the 2000+ multilink, one of the links is very short.  So as it swings down it pulls the wheel inward.  The rear strut suspension does the same thing.

[Gloyale]

Yes, the inner CV bottoms out.  I think this is mainly because the lateral links are shorter than the CV axles.  On the 2000+ multilink, one of the links is very short.  So as it swings down it pulls the wheel inward.  The rear strut suspension does the same thing.

 

Interesting.  I have the exact opposite problem with the rear end of my EA81 w/ torsion bar/ trailing arm.

[scalman]

in  rear in pulls wheel inward and turns it too. but can it be changed ?

[jf1sf5]

True, when the links are shorter than the axles, the tripod bottoms to the inside of the cups at full droop. Older BG Outbacks have a better design as the links are nearly the same length as the axles.

[pontoontodd]

in  rear in pulls wheel inward and turns it too. but can it be changed ?

 

Yes, anything can be changed, but would it be worth the effort?  You would have to modify or rebuild the subframe to change that, which some people do.  I think longer links to get 13-14" of travel would be good enough.  There will probably be all sorts of other things limiting suspension travel at that point.  I should probably measure the bump steer with the stock links but I can't imagine it would be too bad.

 

True, when the links are shorter than the axles, the tripod bottoms to the inside of the cups at full droop. Older BG Outbacks have a better design as the links are nearly the same length as the axles.

 

The BG links are still shorter than the axles, and they start out at more of a downward angle, so we have the same problem, it's not quite as bad.  One of the main reasons we can get decent suspension travel out of the Subarus is that the CV axles are so long.  I haven't seen many other cars, and virtually no trucks, with CV axles as long.

[scalman]

but those links are shorter for reasons. do they not ? question is can we still get more from our oem struts . or those struts on limit allready?

[jf1sf5]

Its not really possible to get more stroke from the oem struts, maybe only with cartridges but its quite difficult to find some with more stroke than stock oem Subarus.

 

Lately, I went to my friends garage, he's a mechanic, an I looked under a Nissan X-trail from early '00 and the rear struts seemed to be a little longer with more stroke than the Subaru struts but the same design. I'll try to find the specs on the net to compare.

[pontoontodd]

Its not really possible to get more stroke from the oem struts, maybe only with cartridges but its quite difficult to find some with more stroke than stock oem Subarus.

 

Lately, I went to my friends garage, he's a mechanic, an I looked under a Nissan X-trail from early '00 and the rear struts seemed to be a little longer with more stroke than the Subaru struts but the same design. I'll try to find the specs on the net to compare.

 

If you look at:

http://www.monroe.com/en-US/e-catalog

http://showmetheparts.com/kyb/

https://www.partsgeek.com/mmparts/struts/nissan/x_trail.html

It does look like they have a little more travel than 1999 Outback struts, maybe an inch.  Top threads are the same, so you could probably use Subaru top hats.  Not sure about the bottom mount or offset for tire clearance and camber, pictures might not be those particular struts.  For that matter have you tried putting Subaru rear struts on the front?  I think the bolt pattern is the same, maybe not enough offset to give you good tire clearance, but they're definitely longer and have more travel.

 

Looks like you could get an early 00 Xtrail with a 280hp SR20VET and six speed manual!  Why not just buy one of those?

[scalman]

I would think if those would fit subarus people all over then world would use them no? At least in russia areas, they like to diy many things there or redo remake stuffto fit. I never heard from russians they would use x trail shocks on subarus.

[jf1sf5]

I would think if those would fit subarus people all over then world would use them no? At least in russia areas, they like to diy many things there or redo remake stuffto fit. I never heard from russians they would use x trail shocks on subarus.

 

Yeah, but sometimes you think that everything has been "discovered" and you find something new...just like EUDM BG Outback exhaust, SVX front axles...

[pontoontodd]

We went back to Ozark NF in Arkansas over the weekend.  Decided to check out the small section of it between Mountain Home and Mountain View.  C made it to my house a little before 6AM Friday in his 99 Impreza Outback Sport and we hooked up the tow bar and lights and headed south.  Picked up K on the way and met J in Mountain Home and unhooked the Impreza.  We started trail riding towards the Leatherwood wilderness.  We crossed a stream next to a waterfall and C noticed one of his tires was leaking.  We swapped it out with his spare and continued.

 

We spent the night at Gunner pool campground next to a small pool created by a rock dam holding back the stream.

 

C's RR strut mount rusted out in the Impreza and he kept getting flat tires so we stopped at the Walmart in Mountain View and bought two Goodyears.  There was a two hour wait so C did the mounting in the parking lot with a couple of prybars.  K and I went to the tractor supply store and got a dozen ~8” hose clamps we used to hold his strut top mount together.

 

B broke the RF lower balljoint (Amazon lifetime warranty) in the Forester, which also pulled apart the CV axle.  Fortunately the balljoint came out easily and we were able to get it back together.  His car was also running hot, the condenser is beat and the radiator was plugged with dirt/dust.  We stopped a couple of times to blast out his radiator but that fix didn't seem to last very long.  His engine is also still using a lot of oil, at least a quart per tank, doesn't seem to be going in the intake from the breathers or leaking.  Any idea what the cause or solution to that problem is?

C went to climb a long, rutted, rocky climb and his drivetrain was slipping about halfway up.  We headed back out that trail the way we came but there was a long grade with some steep sections we had to drive back up.  He thought the clutch was slipping so we spent some time pouring water in the clutch fork hole which didn't seem to help much.  When we got back to the long climb out he couldn't drive it up.  He said it was showing 30mph on the speedo but the car wasn't moving.  I looked under the front and the RF CV axle bar and inboard joint were spinning but the outer joint was not.  I tried towing him up the grade but didn't make it very far.  I drove up to the top of the grade where B was waiting and got a spare front CV axle and some tools and drove back down to C.  We swapped out the CV axle.  C suggested towing him up just to make sure he'd get to the top rather than getting halfway up and having to back down.  We hooked up the strap and went as fast as I thought was reasonably safe.  Most of the time there was slack in the strap but I was pulling him a little on the steepest parts.  He probably could have made it up under his own power but it was an entertaining ride and put us in a better mood.

We were following what looked like a long trail on the map and came to a gate that was open but said private property.  It was at a wide shallow rock stream crossing.  C parked hard in the stream so we decided to follow suit for a photo op.

 

C blew out a brake line in the Impreza when I started turning around in a giant dust cloud and he didn't see us until the last minute.  We tried replacing the line but then the other rear line broke so we decided to just splice the rear lines together inside the car and bleed the brakes.  While we were waiting for it to cool down we checked out the boat ramp I was turning around for.  K noticed a big snakeskin and then noticed a snake.  We saw at least two swimming around the rocks along the shore.

Drove by the road to Sugarloaf Mountain, I thought at first we could drive to the top but the Forest Service had locked the gate.  It was a mile to the top and there is a big fire tower so we figured that would be cool to check out. Walked to the top to find out we probably weren't supposed to climb the fire tower which was a big disappointment.

 

The last night we camped at a campground that was partially closed with a spring and cave nearby.  It had hot showers and we camped along the stream which was wide and shallow.  B went back to the RV dump site and blasted out his radiator.  We cooked dogs over a campfire and went to sleep.

 

We packed up the cars in the morning and went to a picnic area with a cave and cliff amphitheater and ate bagels and cinnamon rolls.  C stopped at the RV station to wash out his radiator and I hard parked the Outback on a sharp rocky curb which punctured the sidewall.  I plugged it and aired back up.  Plugs came out every hour or two so we eventually put the spare on, C was excited to see the electric jacks in action.  One time we had to stop for that I pulled off the road in Mark Twain NF and after we plugged it we followed the overgrown trail there to a small pond. 

 

 

On the way back out that trail we did some hard parking on a small rock garden. 

 

 

 

 

We took a few other side roads/trails in Mark Twain that were fairly short dead ends.  We were able to drive all three cars home.  Outback just needs a tire patch.  Impreza needs rear brake lines.  Forester needs a new condenser and possibly radiator and probably tires.  By far the most trail repairs we've ever done on a trip, a lot of them were tires.  It was a hot weekend, highs of 90F and lows in the 60s, plenty of humidity and not much wind.  But we had a good time and found some good trails.

B is looking for a rust free Forester so any leads on that would be appreciated, let's say $3000 budget, under 200k miles, stick shift.

[pontoontodd]

While looking for rear axles we noticed that they are different lengths.  Got a pair that I think are from a 98 Forester, right rear axle is about 10mm longer than the left rear.

Shortly after the last Arkansas trip my wife and I went to Tennessee in the 99 Outback with kayaks. Forecast was for rain in IN, KY, TN so we stayed in western IL. Odometer went over 250k on the way down. 

Went to a couple different lakes in Illinois.  Next we went to Interlake. Have to pay to enter now, not a lot of people out on the trails. Trails seem rougher and more overgrown than the last time we were there. Looped around to one of the lakes at the bottom of a rough hill. My wife figured we wouldn't see anyone else out on the lake and we didn't. Went up the hill without much problem and kept looping around. Showed her the one big climb just off the county road which wasn't much of a problem. The trail after that was quite narrow and washed out and at the bottom the whole area was flooded. We probably could have gone through but I decided to turn around and take the main trail back to the parking lot. On the way we stopped at a hiking trail. Trail was fairly overgrown and we were only able to follow it by looking for the markers on trees.

We headed for Wood creek lake the next day. On the way to what we thought was the boat ramp we went by Wildcat off road park. I thought this was the park in KY where you can drive through a cave so we signed in and bought wristbands and a map. Then I found out this is not the park with a giant cave. Should have asked for my money back but we went out and looped around the main trail across the road from the office. There were a few sections that tested the Subaru but we made it through but I decided we should leave while we could.  Did some more kayaking and hiking and had no car problems.  Drove about 2000 miles, mostly on pavement, used about a quart of oil.

We plan on taking ten guys in five Subarus to the UP soon, I think we have the cars all ready to go.

[Numbchux]

13 hours ago, pontoontodd said:

We plan on taking ten guys in five Subarus to the UP soon, I think we have the cars all ready to go.

I'm excited to hear about that. We're planning a trip up there for this fall. Probably less intense than you usually do, but I'd still like to see what we find. At the very least, we want to cross the firesteel railroad trestles, and spend a night either on the beach at Keweenaw point, or the island on Schlattner lake (pending finding a decent inflatable boat for cheapish, as it probably doesn't make sense to haul a couple canoes up there just to get to the island).

[pontoontodd]

Our friend M wanted to have an off road bachelor party so we took ten guys and five Subarus to the UP.  We all met up at my house around noon Friday. C showed up early, his girlfriend drove his blue Outback and he flat towed his black Impreza OBS with his pickup. We went to a grocery store to buy food for the trip – bagels, strudel, bread, PB&J, pizzas, dogs and burgers, and taco ingredients. We left around 1PM and all drove to the cabin without any issues and cooked the pizzas.

The next morning we cooked pancakes and packed up and left around 7AM. Headed across 2 to the railroad grade into Watersmeet, hit the mini whoop section on the way into town. Shortly after going through Watersmeet the blue Outback died and we eventually towed it back to Nordine's in Watersmeet. Eventually figured out the timing belt had skipped some teeth. C had brought a different tensioner thinking the one on there might be weak. Got it running again and headed towards the Baraga plains. After a couple more hours we finally got into an area with a lot of trails and the blue Outback died again. We got it running but not well, it probably had some bent valves. Pulled it to civilization with the 50' strap. Talked to a kid in the family that owns a repair shop of sorts, his mom wouldn't let him buy it. Found a gas station that would let us leave it there for a month, C is coming back up over the fourth of July with his girlfriend's family and will tow it back then. At some point early in the day A put the Impreza in a ditch and got it up on two wheels which bent one of the front wheels. Drove on some main roads to the Baraga plains. Drove around a sandy stunt area and got all the cars but the blue Impreza stuck at one point. Went to the sandy pipeline grade and hit that which cheered everyone up. Switched cars at the halfway point. Headed east on 28 to get close to halfway to where we were staying Sunday night. Headed south off the highway and did some more trail riding. Saw a couple of painted turtles at the start of one of the first trails. I let M and C lead the way and they decided to keep going straight where the road turned and we were on an old narrow somewhat overgrown trail. They started driving through the woods to a clearcut at one point and when we got out to look around and found we had gotten off the main trail a bit. Shockingly it went through to the dirt road we had turned off on. We found some other dead ends on the way to the campground. At one of them we noticed coolant coming out of the bottom of the Outback. One of the valve cover bolts had rubbed through the lower radiator hose. Cut the bolt and boss off flush with the recip saw and put the spare radiator hose on. The campground at Pike lake has been closed for almost a decade but the campground at Bass lake was open so we camped there.

 

 

 

The next morning I took the overflow cap off the Outback which caused it to start leaking coolant again. A different valve cover bolt had rubbed through the hose. I was able to cut one of the hoses back, cut that bolt and boss off flush, and put it back together. In the morning we found some dead ends and motorcycle only trails. From there we headed east to Gwinn and got fuel. There was a nice little jump along the powerline on the south side of town that we took turns hitting. Looped around the south side of town on a whooped out sandy trail. Went south between Mehl Lake and Little Lake and everything seemed to be private. Went north across the highway on some sandy trails that led up to the snowmobile trail, which was sandy/dusty and whooped out. I was driving the Outback in the back and could see the Impreza bouncing around quite a bit, the right rear has no damping. Followed 35 for a bit and went down some other dead end trails. Eventually worked our way back up to the snowmobile trail but there were gates in a few places so we wound up taking 94 to Munising and got gas. At this point we decided to just go to the lodge we rented and make dinner. S cooked tacos. C wanted to do some trail riding since there are a ton of trails around that lodge. Figured we'd loop around for an hour or so, try to find an unpaved route to the Driggs River road. We went west and then turned off on Sunset Landing road. Fun road with dips/jumps and sandy turns. Came to a four way intersection. The widest straight route went right into a big pool of standing water. There was a trail right alongside it that was narrower but a decent dirt road with just a tree line in between. I drove down the dirt road and thought Cory saw me. They both joined up after the tree line. C didn't see me and had gotten overconfident from the standing water we'd driven through on sandy/rocky trails in the afternoon. He drove right into it and got stuck in the middle of the pond. It was about 50' wide and 200' long and he was stuck right in the middle. In a couple minutes there was water on the seats and they were sitting on the roof of the car. I couldn't get close to them on that trail since I started to sink in before even getting to the standing water. Water was only about a foot deep but the bottom was very soft. I got close on the side trail and we winched them over to the treeline. We were able to pull the car up the bank with the snatch strap, ripping off the front bumper in the process. It was held onto the brackets by four spot welds on each side. Pulled it back to the lodge and C told B he joined the swamp club. We drained the water out of the oil pan, pulled the plugs and cranked more out, and it sort of ran. Relays were clicking on and off, battery seemed weak, we're thinking the ECU being submerged might have caused problems.

The next morning we drove back to the crime scene so we could all check it out in the daylight. At this point we struggled to get C's car running right, swapped the batteries between the Imprezas. It kept acting up for the next hour or two, hotwired the fuel pump, eventually just decided to flat tow it back home with the Outback. Outback was running hot above 70mph, especially up grades. Blasted out the radiator at a coin op car wash which didn't help much. Radiator has at least some mud on the backside of it. Had to run the heat about 1/3 of the time on the way home. Blue Impreza's hood didn't get latched properly after we got gas in Menominee so that blew open and smashed the windshield. Other than that we got home alright.

Leaning towards just getting a RR strut, windshield, and a couple other things for the Impreza. Tempted to get Forester struts for it and pull the swaybars. Also tempted to just switch to the alloy wheels and snow tires and keep the steels for backup rather than buying more steel wheels that are just going to bend.  Thoughts on that?

The next day the Outback was leaking coolant again. Need to change the water neck on the radiator and flush the mud out of it.

Edited June 14, 2018 by pontoontodd

[slammo]

IMO:  Subaru alloy wheels are cheap and plentiful.  Steelies have the potential to bend first and prevent damage to lateral links, but for the weight and space I'd rather just carry spare lateral links.  Those don't typically bend bad enough to disable a vehicle, just put the wheels out of alignment.  Keeping all four tires matching to keep the center diff happy is also easier when you're not bending rims and having to maintain multiple spares.

 

Speaking of bending things, I never debriefed from the April trip to the Ozarks.  Better late than never, right?  My red Impreza did have a bent rear strut.  The camber bolt was damaged on removal, but I don't think it failed in service.  Installed a set of junkyard rear forester struts with stock bolts, so that's taken care of in any case.  I think I'm going to install rear subframe spacers from an Outback to correct the rear camber rather than using camber bolts, mostly because the camber bolts reduce the tire-to-strut clearance which is a problem with my wheel and tire choice.  Also a problem with my wheel and tire choice is the fact that I'm running 1" spacers front and rear.  They're hubcentric and have not been a problem themselves, but they increase the moment on the struts by moving the tires out and I'm sure that was a huge contributing factor to bending the rear one.  Unfortunately the tires are worth more than the car so for the time being I'm planning to stick with the spacers and just plan on replacing struts periodically.  They're cheap enough from a junkyard and I'll try to be more careful hitting hard bumps in the future.

 

I also beat the fender back into roughly the right shape and installed a secondhand headlight and corner light.

Before:

After:

Good as new and ready to smash into more ditches!

 

Now onto the good stuff, a few video clips of the long travel cars in the Ozarks.  Again, these are from the April trip.

Outback and Forester taking some yumps

Outback on a rocky hill

Forester on the same rocky hill, losing a CV joint

 

Until next time!

 

- "D"

Edited June 16, 2018 by slammo
Fixed Youtube links

[pontoontodd]

Before the UP trip the cable hood latch was acting up on my Impreza and Outback so I welded a strip of steel onto the latch so I can just open them directly.  Seemed to work fairly well, sometimes you have to push back down on the lever to get it to latch, but no more worrying about snapping the plastic hood release off.

Had also noticed three of the four wheels on the Outback had cracks in the inner bead so I replaced those.

Yesterday B fixed the fender and corner light on his Forester. He tried to remove the steering rack bolts, one of them broke off and he drilled and tapped it, another one was probably going to break so he threaded it back in for now.  We will probably replace the whole rack or at least the one line soon.  His RF balljoint is loose in the spindle too, we put in a different bolt with a 17mm hex and still weren't able to tighten it enough to get the ball joint tight.  We'll put a knuckle with bolt on wheel bearing on that corner probably next weekend.

I adjusted the parking brake on the Outback since I drove with it on last weekend. Checked all the wheel bearings and greased the struts. C straightened out and screwed down the left front fender.  The lower radiator hose hadn't rubbed through, this time it split open.  I think this is an old one I've been carrying around as a spare for a long time, maybe even the original one from the car or the six cylinder donor.  Ordered a new one for 99 Outback with 2.5 and one for 2002 Outback with 3.0, see which one fits better.

We pulled out the radiator and I cut a v notch in it so I can get that welded at a lower angle.  Here you can see how close it was to the timing chain cover and the bolts I cut off.

V notch cut and bent down, a little hard to see in this picture but moved the water neck down about 1/2".

While the coolant is out I ordered some gaskets and plan to seal up this engine like I did the 2001.

I replaced the RR strut on my blue Impreza since it was leaking and had almost no damping. B replaced the LR CV axle.  When he did that he noticed the inner CV had worn a big notch in the exhaust.

B fitted a piece of steel over that and I welded it in place so at least it's not cooking the CV.  I hammered and ground the wheel wells where the tires were rubbing. I wired the cooling fan to one of the terminals on one of the AC relays in the fusebox so it's on with the ignition. Has an inline fuse near the fusebox. I checked the wiring at the RF headlight which seemed wrong at first but after testing and blowing out a headlight fuse seemed the same as the 95 Outback headlight. We fitted one to C's Impreza with some sheet metal trimming and hammering, should hold up better than the two piece headlight/corner lights.

[pontoontodd]

While I had the coolant drained out of the 99 Outback I decided to replace the oil cooler and valve cover gaskets since they seemed to fix the oil leak on the 2001 Outback.  I got those replaced, they were very stiff and brittle.  While doing that I realized that the driver's side engine mount is broken (rubber is separated).  The passenger side is badly cracked.  I ordered a pair of those from the dealer.  I got the water neck on the radiator welded.

We replaced the steering rack on the Forester since the one line was kinked and rusty.  Also replaced his RF knuckle with one with bolt on wheel bearing as we couldn't fully clamp the ball joint with the bolt.  Wheel bearing that was in the new knuckle didn't quite fit the CV splines, wound up putting a new bolt on wheel bearing in it, which was of course super easy.

Finished editing the video from our May trip to Arkansas:

https://youtu.be/2hZ0n65dPJk

Edited June 26, 2018 by pontoontodd

[scalman]

did you allready decided what you will do with 2001 outback ? lifts,shocks,  tires ? what for it will be used ?