long travel Outbacks or making Subarus faster and more reliable offroad

[slammo]

 

On 10/30/2018 at 2:12 PM, pontoontodd said:

Also the temp sticker I put on the floor above the muffler maxed out at 390F.

Wow!  Remind me not to relocate my exhaust.  Do you have a sheetmetal heat shield between the muffler and chassis like there is in the stock application?  Those are a pain when they rattle, squeak, and catch on things but in this case it sounds like it would be worth it.

[pontoontodd]

On 11/2/2018 at 7:52 AM, slammo said:

 

Wow!  Remind me not to relocate my exhaust.  Do you have a sheetmetal heat shield between the muffler and chassis like there is in the stock application?  Those are a pain when they rattle, squeak, and catch on things but in this case it sounds like it would be worth it.

No heat shield, that probably would help.  Definitely worth it to fit the 23 gallon fuel cell though.  I have a piece of insulation on top of that part of the floor now and it's not causing any problems.

 

This is what the broken control arm mount looks like.  Thinking about different ways to make these or reinforce them.

Hard to tell in this picture but the center was also bent towards the back of the car.  I've had that happen before but this is the first one we've broken.  Also judging by the fracture surfaces it failed suddenly and hadn't been cracked for a long time.

Another issue we had on the trip I forgot to mention is that the inner lateral link bolts (next to the diff) for the rear suspension of the Forester kept coming loose.  We didn't have a long box end wrench like I have at home to really torque them down so we had to tighten them almost every day of trail riding.  Wasn't noticeable off pavement but on pavement it was wandering all over the place with those bolts loose.  Also we're used to the brown loctite on the midwestern cars keeping bolts from coming loose whether you like it or not.

 

We got that control arm back in the 99 Outback, welded some cracks on the crossmember, and set the alignment.

Also think I figured out what's going to work for now on the 2002 Outback.  Not as much travel as I want in the rear, maybe 8" for now.  I know what the limitations are though and I can see how our starting point of damping works and how the stock links hold up.  I think over the winter I can get 12"+ out of it but will have to make longer links.  Anyone know of longer rear CV axles and/or rear CVs with more plunge?

[scalman]

Thats how you learn that you doing something wrong with car pushing it too hard or its just too week for those kinda tracks and speeds.

[1 Lucky Texan]

there's huge forces on that part. almost all the acceleration and braking forces are concentrated there.

 

Febest had some replacements that are affordable - dunno how they would be strength-wise.

 

hope the captured nuts in the frame don't bust loose!

Edited November 6, 2018 by 1 Lucky Texan

[pontoontodd]

2 hours ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

there's huge forces on that part. almost all the acceleration and braking forces are concentrated there.

 

Febest had some replacements that are affordable - dunno how they would be strength-wise.

 

hope the captured nuts in the frame don't bust loose!

One of our friends who works on rally teams says even with stronger tubular control arms he's never seen the mounts rip out of the frame.  So I'm going to hope that continues to be the case.  That part of the frame does seem very strong.  I'd be more worried about the front mount ripping out of the crossmember.

Those mounts from Febest are fairly cheap, I should probably order one and take a look, try to measure and compare it to a stock mount.  Interesting they're listed as hydro.  I don't think any of the mounts we've messed with in the past were, but I remember on my 2001 when I was changing all the fluids and various gaskets that one of the arm mounts seemed to be leaking fluid.  Thanks for the tip.

[1 Lucky Texan]

yeah, on another board I posted an adventure swapping the bushings with Prothane inserts. On our 03, the stockers definitely had some greenish fluid in them. Took them out due to NVH complaints from the wife. running Febest for the last few years. I personally don't think they are fluid filled but could easily be wrong.

oem style are also L/R specific.

 

The control arm needs to be brought up to 'cruising height' (more or less flat with the underside of the car. Mid travel I guess?) when OEM-style mount is finally torqued in place. Not required on poly units though.

Edited November 6, 2018 by 1 Lucky Texan

[pontoontodd]

Mainly since the CV axles bottom out in the diff, I had to limit the shock travel for the multilink rear even more than expected.  So in the end I only have a little more travel than stock, but the car sits higher and should have more damping.  In the future I may have to buy longer bodies and shafts for these shocks but should be able to reuse 90% of the parts.  Wound up using the springs from the old front a-arm setup.  They're a little stiffer than I want but the new ones I bought are too long for now.

 

Put shock covers on them too, not shown.  Has about 2.5" of droop travel and 5.5" of bump travel, sits 2-3" higher than stock.  Have the 15" alloys with 215/75/15 mud tires on the car now. 

Just turned it around in the shop and will start installing long travel front struts, arms, and tie rods next.

Any leads on longer rear CV axles and/or CVs with more plunge would be appreciated.  I think over the winter I will make longer links for the rear and try to get 12-14" of travel.  Will also probably have to move the top shock mounts and reservoirs above the floor.

[1 Lucky Texan]

check the Heri hd units I guess;

dunno how many models they offer but;

 

 

[jf1sf5]

I had a set of Heri axles on my Forester, good design but fair quality. I replaced them with SVX axles, 30° vs 25° for the Forester. Now you would have to adapt them to the rear diff to make them work...

[pontoontodd]

14 minutes ago, jf1sf5 said:

I had a set of Heri axles on my Forester, good design but fair quality. I replaced them with SVX axles, 30° vs 25° for the Forester. Now you would have to adapt them to the rear diff to make them work...

I have heard from others the Heri axles don't hold up well.  I am very tempted to buy one and try it.  Rockauto has "Surtrack/Trakmotive" axles, I don't know if it's just a different name, but they look the same and sell for $90.  Oreilly has the same thing as Rock auto just called Import Direct for $115.  They say 50% more linear travel than standard but don't say how much.

How did you make SVX axles work on your Forester?

Got the 2002 Outback back together with long travel front struts, arms, tie rods, and axles.  I've got a set of worn mud tires on 15" alloy wheels on it and it sits a few inches higher than stock.  Rear only has about 8" of travel but it seems to ride pretty well.  Anxious to see how the auto works off road.

[jf1sf5]

Don't buy the Heri axles, waste of money...

The SVX axles went just fine on the diff but had to be machined to fit the Forester hubs. I also had to widen the front track with SG A-arms.

http://offroadsubarus.com/showthread.php?t=7143

[pontoontodd]

2 minutes ago, jf1sf5 said:

Don't buy the Heri axles, waste of money...

The SVX axles went just fine on the diff but had to be machined to fit the Forester hubs. I also had to widen the front track with SG A-arms.

http://offroadsubarus.com/showthread.php?t=7143

Are you talking front or rear CV axles now?  We've been using these on the front and they seem to hold up well, definitely have more plunge travel than most Subaru CV axles:

https://autoshafts.com/i-23374251-cv-axle-shaft.html

I have a connection and bought ten for about half that price.  The CV joints are much larger than most Subaru axles too, probably why they seem to last a while even with torn boots.

 

What I am looking for is something like that for the rear.  Did you use SVX rear axles on your Forester?

[jf1sf5]

No, I still have the oem SF axles at the rear. But if needed, I think that it would be possible with a bit of machining to put front SVX axles at the rear though.

I don't know the differences between SVX and Forester rear axles.

Edited November 11, 2018 by jf1sf5

[Numbchux]

On 11/7/2018 at 12:13 PM, pontoontodd said:

Mainly since the CV axles bottom out in the diff, I had to limit the shock travel for the multilink rear even more than expected.  So in the end I only have a little more travel than stock, but the car sits higher and should have more damping.  In the future I may have to buy longer bodies and shafts for these shocks but should be able to reuse 90% of the parts.  Wound up using the springs from the old front a-arm setup.  They're a little stiffer than I want but the new ones I bought are too long for now.

 

Put shock covers on them too, not shown.  Has about 2.5" of droop travel and 5.5" of bump travel, sits 2-3" higher than stock.  Have the 15" alloys with 215/75/15 mud tires on the car now. 

Just turned it around in the shop and will start installing long travel front struts, arms, and tie rods next.

Any leads on longer rear CV axles and/or CVs with more plunge would be appreciated.  I think over the winter I will make longer links for the rear and try to get 12-14" of travel.  Will also probably have to move the top shock mounts and reservoirs above the floor.

That's excellent. It didn't even occur to me to make an adapter like that for the top mount and just use conventional coilover shocks! I love it!

What spring rate are those?

[idosubaru]

On 11/6/2018 at 11:30 AM, pontoontodd said:

Those mounts from Febest are fairly cheap

They're cheap and easy enough that they're worth a shot.  I had one of those Febest front control arm bushings fail in about a year/20,000 miles of easy daily driver use.

[pontoontodd]

3 hours ago, Numbchux said:

That's excellent. It didn't even occur to me to make an adapter like that for the top mount and just use conventional coilover shocks! I love it!

What spring rate are those?

Figured the stock shocks were coilover, pretty easy to fit real coilover shocks.  500#/in, I had them laying around and it's close.  In the long run I will probably wind up with longer shocks with the top mount and reservoir inside the car.

[Numbchux]

1 hour ago, pontoontodd said:

Figured the stock shocks were coilover, pretty easy to fit real coilover shocks.  500#/in, I had them laying around and it's close.  In the long run I will probably wind up with longer shocks with the top mount and reservoir inside the car.

Absolutely, it makes complete sense.

I'm still getting a free set of OE Tacoma front take-offs, so I'll probably try that, which is supposedly 595 lb. Although those shocks travel almost an inch less than the Subaru option.

Rallitek actually lists the spring rate of their overload spring as 355 lb/in, specifically citing that they are 18-20% stiffer than stock, but softer than the rally-specific King springs (their words https://www.rallitek.com/blog/rallitek-vs-king/ ).

 

But, with the extra travel, and much better damping of that Fox shock, the stiffer spring is probably less of an issue for you.

[pontoontodd]

We drove down to Badlands off road park yesterday.  I had the Outbacks hooked up to tow but we disconnected them since it was snowing and decided to drive separate.  B and Z met us there in the Forester. Set up the flags, aired down, and secured cargo. We drove in and immediately found a figure eight we'd never seen before. Larger than the one we usually go to, we were easily able to run three cars in it at the same time with relative safety.  C was driving the black Outback, he told me later he wasn't pushing it 100% but running a steady fast pace. I was driving the white Outback as fast as I was comfortable with and he was slowly pulling away. Then I shifted from D to 1 and was able to slowly catch up to him, so we used 1 the rest of the day.  When driving through some big whoops in the white Outback near the lower parking lot I realized the ABS was keeping the brakes from doing their job. We hit the whoops faster than I wanted and the back end was kicking up bad. Guys behind me said they saw the rear tires completely off the ground a few times. Definitely need to get more travel in the rear. Stopped and pulled out the airbag and ABS fuses.  Then we drove to the small figure eight. Checked out the tubes on the way, water was fairly low with not too much of a drop off the south tube. Took turns in the small figure eight. Drove up to the end of the stream and dropped in. First half is pretty rocky but not bad with the long travel. Water level was fairly low. Went through the tubes and drove the rest of the stream. It smooths out a little ways after the tubes and we were going fast. There was so much water spraying off the tires that if you were steering at all you could hardly see where you were going from the solid pillars of water thrown up by the tires. We got to the end of the stream in a very short time and went up a big hillclimb with a couple large rocks embedded in it. I didn't think we were going to clear in the black Outback but we made it up without hitting them. The white Outback scraped a little. We stopped at the top because someone decided it was a decent spot to make sandwiches.  While we were eating C and I walked down to look at the climb and he noticed the rock was covered in undercoating, there were even a few chunks that had been scraped off the car(s). We made a little plan to mess with the guys driving it so he went back up first and tried to convince them I was pissed that they had scraped some undercoating off but they didn't buy it at all. The trail down from there back to the tailings had a nice little downhill jump on it I thought but it was not straight and slippery with mud so it was hard enough to stay on the trail, there was no way to get any speed to get air. Drove back up and we hopped in different cars and went down. We went back to the spot where we were doing the uphill jump last year and hit one of the ones next to it. Doesn't have a nice lip at the top for big air but has a much larger and smoother landing area so we could hit it faster. At about 45mph I was able to get decent air. Forester got a little air, couldn't really get it or the white Outback going fast enough by the top to get good air. From there we dropped down to the railroad grade and followed that back to the parking lot. J likes the dragon tail so we went through that. We tried a bunch of hillclimbs. There was one that Z tried twice in the white Outback and just couldn't make it up. Seemed like a combination of the engine getting bogged down and then some wheelspin and then it would just dig in. I thought he had enough momentum and throttle to make it up too. Then we decided to head to the north end of the park. On the way we decided to try a long rocky trail we've wanted to test out for years. C only got about 30' in with the black Outback and got two wheels light and couldn't go anywhere, even with some tipping and pushing. We pulled him back out of it and headed north on an easier trail. Did a few hillclimbs and some were pretty easy. C tried one that was a little steeper and made it to the top fine but there were big trees on both sides so he slowed cresting the top and got high centered. The trail was so narrow he couldn't open the driver's door. R drove around in the black Outback and easily pulled him forward. We dropped back down to the main trail. Went to the end of that at the north end of the park where it's closed off for the concrete plant. Went down a little rough concrete grade we'd never seen before but then the only options seemed to be a 2' shelf we'd have to drive up or a giant swamp. So we drove back up the rough concrete grade, which went smoother than expected. B cut through the woods and we went back in the bowl near the parking lot. Drove around there some, there were a lot of other people at that time so we decided to leave that area. Visibility cresting hills in the Subarus is terrible so it's unsafe to drive around a bunch of other people in a spot like that with lots of hill climbs. Cut down through the woods to the concrete hillclimb near the entrance. This time we were able to get up fairly easily. Last up was the white Outback, I told Z to try to just slush it up from a dead stop at the bottom. Made it about halfway and it just stalled.  Engine running, no tires spinning, just not going uphill.  Backed down, got a run at it, and drove to the top fairly easy. Then we dropped down a rocky trail with some concrete steps. It was probably a little rougher than the last time we did it, but we made it through fine, should have gotten video. Drove along the little stream bed, went up a big hillclimb we've done before, then dropped back down and followed the stream back out to the bowl. At this point the white Outback was making a high pitched scraping noise, at first we thought it was just gravel in the dust shields but then C figured out it was the exhaust rubbing on the driveshaft. Jacked it up a bit and bent the exhaust down. Exhaust is cracked a bit so it's not super quiet anymore but not horrible. Black Outback with the Dynomax super turbo and cats sounds much better than white Outback with stock exhaust (both have EZ30). We decided to wander around a little more and try to find some decent jumps. Most of the really good ones there have been leveled out or messed up. Hit some banked turns along one of the main trails and followed a narrow trail until we got back to where we'd jumped the cars at the start of the day. Where that narrow trail drops into the bowl we were jumping out of before is a nice berm I thought would make a good jump. It was decent, couldn't get a real clean run at it since it's not a perfectly straight shot, so I could only hit it at about 35mph, but maybe the best jump of the day we found.

After that we wandered a bit more and J decided to try the dragon's tail again. He was driving the white Outback and dropped into one of the banked turns from the outside (it's a bit smoother to go around the whoops on the main line) and got it stuck in the soft tailings. I was right behind in the black Outback and did something similar, got stuck since I had to stop for him. Fortunately the Forester was not stuck, R was eventually able to pull him out. I was able to drive the black Outback back and forth a little bit but then just had R pull me out. By this time J had driven into the next turn and stopped, getting the white Outback stuck again. I figured I'd just pull him back out since I was kind of lined up and had more power and weight than the Forester. Z was worried we'd back into the hole we'd just created when we were stuck but I thought we would be fine. I was able to pull J out but then almost got stuck in the hole Z was worried about. I was just able to drive out of it though. At this point the park was about to close so we left.

The right front wheel bearing in the white Outback had the seals pushed out of it when I put the long travel on. I pushed them back in and the grease looked good but it did seem to be making noise. I wasn't sure though since I had also just put a set of old mud tires on it. Didn't seem sloppy before we left but on the way home it was sloppy and making various clicking and popping noises, especially when changing speed. At a steady 80mph on the highway it was silent. I do have a knuckle for that corner with a bolt on wheel bearing. Since I'm not planning on using the ABS anymore I'm just going to put that on.

We all had a good time, got stuck about half a dozen times, no real mechanical failures, and hit some decent jumps. I was kind of disappointed with the automatic, I would say it's comparable to the four cylinder five speed off road, you really need momentum and to keep the RPMs up for any kind of hillclimb. The current setup for the multilink rear definitely needs more travel. It was the worst riding of the three (not surprisingly) but still better than stock. The new Forester really runs well, I drove it for a while and was impressed with the hills we could climb at quarter or half throttle. The black Outback was definitely the best, steering brake, manual trans, and six cylinder definitely make it more entertaining and it definitely rode the best of the three.

 

 

[slammo]

On 11/18/2018 at 11:53 AM, pontoontodd said:

 

 

 

 

I love this picture.  It feels very Cowabunga

[pontoontodd]

4 minutes ago, slammo said:

I love this picture.  It feels very Cowabunga

Why don't you marry it?

[slammo]

11 minutes ago, pontoontodd said:

Why don't you marry it?

Hasn't been legalized here yet.

Edited November 20, 2018 by slammo

[jf1sf5]

We want more of those flying Subaru pics !

[pontoontodd]

On 11/22/2018 at 3:45 PM, jf1sf5 said:

We want more of those flying Subaru pics !

Haven't found any really good jumps this year, and I think our shocks still need some tuning.  I have many hours of video to edit down this winter, I'll post them as I get them done.  Here are some video stills for you though.

From New Mexico:

 

From Badlands off road park:

 

From our friend's place outside of town yesterday.  Jumps are shaped more for dirt bikes and ATVs than full size but my brother was in town so we wanted to see what he thought of our shock tuning.

Yes, we jumped the white 2002 Outback a little too but it just doesn't have enough travel in the rear yet.

[jf1sf5]

Thank you, beautiful jumps ! Looks like the Forester does it as well as the Outback.

I'm working on my suspension too, I'm fabricating some air lift pistons that will be located under the springs, around the strut housing. The gain will be of 45mm from my current height, no wheel travel/stroke loss but 45mm less droop when lifted. I'll use a 1,5 liter 3300psi scuba tank to feed the pistons at 200psi. Well, its not meant for jumping, more for ground clearance over big ruts/rocks.

[pontoontodd]

On 11/24/2018 at 3:06 PM, jf1sf5 said:

Thank you, beautiful jumps ! Looks like the Forester does it as well as the Outback.

I'm working on my suspension too, I'm fabricating some air lift pistons that will be located under the springs, around the strut housing. The gain will be of 45mm from my current height, no wheel travel/stroke loss but 45mm less droop when lifted. I'll use a 1,5 liter 3300psi scuba tank to feed the pistons at 200psi. Well, its not meant for jumping, more for ground clearance over big ruts/rocks.

Yes, the Forester jumps about as well.  Doesn't ride quite as well, not sure how much of that is shock tuning and how much is just the weight difference.  The jump at the top of the hill it was not able to do, it could climb the hill but didn't have enough power to go fast enough to get much air.  Same with the 2002 Outback.  Talked to one of my friends who drove both and he also thought if anything the Forester with EJ25 and 5MT was better at hillclimbing than the Outback with EZ30 and 4EAT.  The front end noise in the 2002 Outback turned out to be a ripped inner front CV boot, that CV was completely dry.

The Forester was doing some scary wandering around at certain speeds after our Badlands trip.  We tightened a few suspension bolts, replaced the inner tie rods and a control arm bushing.  None of those things seemed too bad but it fixed the problem.

I have thought about some kind of active lifting system like you're describing.  I don't think I would use it enough to be worth the trouble but would like to see what you come up with.