long travel Outbacks or making Subarus faster and more reliable offroad

[pontoontodd]

The recent cold temperatures (-30F/-20C) here have been a good test of my Subaru fleet's batteries.

The Harbor Freight lithium jump starter has been worth its weight in gold, I think it's Vulcan brand.  I have an older one from a different brand that doesn't always work anymore.

The battery in my Impreza I got from a junkyard cranks slow as always, had to use the jump starter on it once or twice.

The Odyssey (PC1230-75/86 760CCA) in my 1999 Outback would only hold a charge for a day, if I drove it every day it was usually fine but if it sat for a few days it wouldn't start.  Unfortunately it's just past the four year warranty.  That battery has been through a lot of vibration and heat and has been discharged many times.  I decided to try a Duracell Ultra Platinum AGM with dual terminals (sli75dtagm 640CCA) from Batteries Plus since it's cheaper and so far it's been great, can sit for days and start right up.  I think the terminals might be too far away for stock battery cables but I like the dual terminals, we've had the top post clamps come off/loose during desert races, having the cables also bolted to the side posts adds redundancy.

I got an Oreilly super start platinum AGM (640CCA) for my 2002 Outback about two years ago and it works great.  The last time I bought one I had to specifically ask them to look it up, apparently it doesn't come up as best fit for that car but it fits fine.

Before I bought my 2001 Outback they put in a new Les Schwab battery (500CCA) about a year ago.  In the past month or so it's started slow a few times and had to be jump started once or twice.  It has a 60 month warranty but there's not a Les Schwab anywhere near here so I got another Oreilly AGM and it's been good.

[jf1sf5]

Nice videos !

Would you make any of your coilovers, how you build them inside and out, what parts you used, spring rates and the stroke you get out of them. Would love to see all the engineering involved for the fabrication.

[pontoontodd]

1 hour ago, jf1sf5 said:

Nice videos !

Would you make any of your coilovers, how you build them inside and out, what parts you used, spring rates and the stroke you get out of them. Would love to see all the engineering involved for the fabrication.

Glad you like the videos.  Hope to get some bigger jumps on video this spring.

I don't completely understand your question about the struts.  I'm not going to give out detailed plans on how to make them since I'm sort of trying to sell them.  The fronts have 9" of stroke which gives 10" of wheel travel, the rears have 11" of stroke which gives 12" of wheel travel.  Sorry if this comes across as rude, but if you have the ability to make them you probably don't need plans and could just go by all the pictures I've posted.  There aren't many complicated machined parts but there are quite a few custom machined parts you'd at least need a lathe to make and I had ten springs custom wound for the front struts.  If you look through page 25 of the thread that should give you a good idea of all the parts that go into the current design.  On page 4 I posted a CAD drawing of the original inverted strut design, same basic design we're still using.

[travelvw]

Crazy cold temps up that way followed by a warm front and more grey: gotta love the Midwest winters, back and forth with plenty of moisture! Not really any sun in the last couple months, either. Always look forward to hints of spring right about now...

45 pages here, and I have only skimmed some of it. Fab work and motivation is impressive, let alone that fact that you drive the sh*t out of what you build!

K

 

[jf1sf5]

21 hours ago, pontoontodd said:

I don't completely understand your question about the struts.  I'm not going to give out detailed plans on how to make them since I'm sort of trying to sell them.  The fronts have 9" of stroke which gives 10" of wheel travel, the rears have 11" of stroke which gives 12" of wheel travel.  Sorry if this comes across as rude, but if you have the ability to make them you probably don't need plans and could just go by all the pictures I've posted.  There aren't many complicated machined parts but there are quite a few custom machined parts you'd at least need a lathe to make and I had ten springs custom wound for the front struts.  If you look through page 25 of the thread that should give you a good idea of all the parts that go into the current design.  On page 4 I posted a CAD drawing of the original inverted strut design, same basic design we're still using.

I understand that you won't give more details about your struts as you are trying to sell them. I was just curious as I had Proflex Evo 2 inverted struts that didn't work as smooth as yours by the looks in the videos, and it was nothing to do with spring rate and/or hydraulic setup, only stick-slip due to bad bearing (though PTFE) and lubrication of the bearings. I think that they were not designed to be Mc Pherson type struts from the begining. I finally sold them cheap....

[pontoontodd]

14 minutes ago, jf1sf5 said:

I understand that you won't give more details about your struts as you are trying to sell them. I was just curious as I had Proflex Evo 2 inverted struts that didn't work as smooth as yours by the looks in the videos, and it was nothing to do with spring rate and/or hydraulic setup, only stick-slip due to bad bearing (though PTFE) and lubrication of the bearings. I think that they were not designed to be Mc Pherson type struts from the begining. I finally sold them cheap....

Were the springs inline with the sliding part of the strut or angled out at the bottom towards the tire?  That makes a difference in theory and in practice.  We have tried a few different kinds of bushings to find something we're happy with, the first few kinds tended to shrink when soaked in grease for a while.  ID ground the last few sets of housings we made, that definitely helped, or at least vastly reduced the amount of hand sanding needed to make the bushings fit right.  Also put grease fittings in between the bushings and we'll usually grease them all after a long weekend of riding, probably not necessary, annually would probably be enough.  I have read one of the big problems with the STI inverted struts is that the grease dries out or washes out after a while, people add grease fittings to those.

[jf1sf5]

The springs were inline just like most coilovers. I'm sure it does help to have them angled but I still think that the problem came from the wrong lubricant. I now run the non-inverted HotBits coilovers since '14, Back then, I also feeled that they were not as smooth as OEM struts even with softer spring rates so I decided to test different oils, ATF Dexron III being the oil used by HotBits. I first tried Citroën LHM, a little better but not good enough, then I tried Motorex 10W fork oil, and suddenly the stick-slip effect was gone but the damping was too firm so I changed for Motorex 2,5W....and now I have a flying carpet ! So from my experience, the right oil is the most important when it comes to shock absorbers.

[pontoontodd]

4 hours ago, jf1sf5 said:

The springs were inline just like most coilovers. I'm sure it does help to have them angled but I still think that the problem came from the wrong lubricant. I now run the non-inverted HotBits coilovers since '14, Back then, I also feeled that they were not as smooth as OEM struts even with softer spring rates so I decided to test different oils, ATF Dexron III being the oil used by HotBits. I first tried Citroën LHM, a little better but not good enough, then I tried Motorex 10W fork oil, and suddenly the stick-slip effect was gone but the damping was too firm so I changed for Motorex 2,5W....and now I have a flying carpet ! So from my experience, the right oil is the most important when it comes to shock absorbers.

The viscosity of shock oil is certainly important.  Also keep in mind that the "weight" system is almost meaningless.  One brand's 10W might be thicker than another brand's 15W, etc.  There are some charts online showing many different brands of shock oil and their viscosity at high and low temperatures.  I've thought about changing out the oil in standard struts with something thicker for more damping but we've blown out the seals as it is, that would just happen more often with a thicker oil.

[jf1sf5]

Very true about the viscosity of the different oil brands. The official measures are done at 40°C and 100°C and are measured in cSt (1 centi-stoke = 1mm2/s). Another way to modify the dampening is to change the hydraulic settings (shims) but thats a longer work. The easiest way is to change the nitrogen pressure, its not as accurate but it still helps finding the right settings.

[pontoontodd]

4 hours ago, jf1sf5 said:

Very true about the viscosity of the different oil brands. The official measures are done at 40°C and 100°C and are measured in cSt (1 centi-stoke = 1mm2/s). Another way to modify the dampening is to change the hydraulic settings (shims) but thats a longer work. The easiest way is to change the nitrogen pressure, its not as accurate but it still helps finding the right settings.

I think changing shims is actually easier and cheaper than changing oil.  If you're off that much I could see only a different oil will get you close though.  You can't change the nitrogen pressure much, too little and you'll have cavitation, too much and you blow them up.

[jf1sf5]

Maybe on the Fox shocks is it easier to change the shims but on the HotBits, I would have to drain the oil too thus why I changed the viscosity of the oil instead of the shims. The recommended nitrogen pressure is around 8bar/120psi and I went up to 12bar/180psi and everything is still fine, nothing's leaking, the nitrogen in the canisters is separate from the oil with a floating piston, not a membrane, this maybe helps for more precise oil filling keeping the seals in good operating conditions.

[pontoontodd]

3 hours ago, jf1sf5 said:

Maybe on the Fox shocks is it easier to change the shims but on the HotBits, I would have to drain the oil too thus why I changed the viscosity of the oil instead of the shims. The recommended nitrogen pressure is around 8bar/120psi and I went up to 12bar/180psi and everything is still fine, nothing's leaking, the nitrogen in the canisters is separate from the oil with a floating piston, not a membrane, this maybe helps for more precise oil filling keeping the seals in good operating conditions.

The off road shocks I've worked on you don't have to drain the oil to change shims.  I've always charged all the ones I work on to 200psi, I think you can go to 250 or 300 on most.  Ours have a floating piston in the reservoir.

[pontoontodd]

Went through the rear end of the 99 Outback to fix a few issues and do some preventative maintenance.  Put aluminum reservoirs on the struts hoping they'll run a little cooler.  Changed the valving, put in new oil, and replaced a boot and the top bearings.

I had a wheel bearing fail last year and I've been putting 20k miles a year on this car so I thought it'd be best to just replace the wheel bearings, seals, and hubs over the winter.  Will probably do this every winter if I keep driving the car that much and it keeps them from failing on the road.

That one parking brake shoe was really bad so I replaced all of them.  I don't use it much but I think mud and sand get inside the drum and just eat the shoes.

One CV boot was leaking, another one might have been leaking slightly, they were all at least a little cracked, and this one was worn over halfway through, so I replaced them all and repacked the CVs.

 

I think I've already swapped out the trailing arm on the driver's side but this one on the passenger side was getting bad so I replaced that with a used one.  They're $76 from the dealer so I'm thinking about getting a couple of them.

While I had everything apart I figured I should do some body repair.  It hadn't really failed completely but was starting to crack again, haven't done anything on this corner for about five years I think.  Hard to see from this picture but the seam on the left is separated and the seam at the bottom where the floor meets the strut tower is pulling apart.  Also that shiny piece laying on the floor was barely attached to the strut tower so I pulled it off and cleaned up all the rust and sealer.

Welded those two seams and welded that extra sheet back on.  Also added a piece of sheet metal to the bottom of that seam by the door (lower left).

Painted to slow the rust.

This is what it looked like in the wheel well after a little cleanup.

Welded some of the seams, then added that big patch.  You can see where I welded the extra sheet on the inside penetrating through.  Burned/scraped more undercoating off.  That big rusty crack on the right is welded on the inside of the car.  Hammered for some strut and tire clearance.

Painted.

I've noticed a gasoline smell when I filled up the last couple times.  Pretty sure this is the source.  I've made these gaskets a couple times now, I think originally from cork and the last time from Buna N which is supposed to stand up to gasoline and alchohol.

They're just shredded.  I suppose some of the breakdown may be mechanical but I assume it's mainly chemical.  Whatever they made that flap out of on the inside is still holding up great.

 

Got some flourosilicone from McMaster, expensive but hopefully it'll last more than a couple years.

 

 

[jf1sf5]

20 hours ago, pontoontodd said:

The off road shocks I've worked on you don't have to drain the oil to change shims.  I've always charged all the ones I work on to 200psi, I think you can go to 250 or 300 on most.  Ours have a floating piston in the reservoir.

I maybe didn't use the right word. I thought that the shims were the washers used to slow up the piston in the shocks. How do you name this part ? Valving washers ?

[pontoontodd]

Just now, jf1sf5 said:

I maybe didn't use the right word. I thought that the shims were the washers used to slow up the piston in the shocks. How do you name this part ? Valving washers ?

Yes, shims or valving washers.  Once you have the shaft out you just have to take the nut off, restack the shims, and put it all back together.

[travelvw]

Definitely looks like a chemical issue on your filler seal.

Might start using etching primer? You can buy it at Slow Reilly's, etc. Holds up way better than any other rattle can, even with minor prep to paint (scotch red). Zinc orange/brown primer is the most durable 'final coat'. I have painted whole cars this way for use/abuse and worked great.

K

[pontoontodd]

15 hours ago, travelvw said:

Definitely looks like a chemical issue on your filler seal.

Might start using etching primer? You can buy it at Slow Reilly's, etc. Holds up way better than any other rattle can, even with minor prep to paint (scotch red). Zinc orange/brown primer is the most durable 'final coat'. I have painted whole cars this way for use/abuse and worked great.

K

Thanks for the tip, I'll try that.

[scalman]

i was told that zink spray after weld is best option and later you can paint it . not sure about it as you can spray just fron outside and inside still rust there as i understand. what is best rust protection for you ?

[travelvw]

A thin layer of etching is by far the best on clean, bare metal (like after welding), follow up coats with zinc primer (then any top color of tinted primer you wish) is a great combo for retarding rust. I use a heavy wire wheel on a grinder and/or a light wire wheel on a drill to polish exposed metal clean, then scuff for paint (red scotch pad at a minimum, 220g sand paper is best). Proper cure time is equally important.

I've personally been struggling trying to get some metal work done on my rig in the middle of an unusually cold winter with plenty of salt exposure and inadequate dry time: nothing really works well under those conditions, so some do-over's this spring, no doubt.

No spray can works if you are painting over rust, nor does anything work if there is serious rust from the inside out. In that case, the metal will have to be cut out and replaced (like in your case).

 

In pontoontodd's situation, primer should hold up a bit longer with the constant spray of gravel/dirt or salt?...not so positive on the later, as I don't see as much salt down here in the long run. Primer is soft and durable. The ruddy orange/red zinc stuff is particularly so (I like the Ace hardware brand personally)...so soft it gums up sand paper instantly, which makes it extremely durable to abrasion and the zinc also retards rust.

Enamel simply chips off until there is nothing left, which is why I commented. Bet it takes little time to go from shiny black to bare surface rust?

K

[pontoontodd]

I think the combination of sand blasting and salt is pretty hard to completely guard against.  It's basically how accelerated corrosion testing used to take place at GM.  I've been amazed how nicely painted and plated everything is on the cars we've bought from out west, some of them look like new even though they're 15+ years old with 200k+ miles on them.

I'm going to give the etching primer a try.  I plan on finishing fabricating those lateral links soon.

[travelvw]

10 hours ago, pontoontodd said:

I think the combination of sand blasting and salt is pretty hard to completely guard against.  It's basically how accelerated corrosion testing used to take place at GM.  I've been amazed how nicely painted and plated everything is on the cars we've bought from out west, some of them look like new even though they're 15+ years old with 200k+ miles on them.

I'm going to give the etching primer a try.  I plan on finishing fabricating those lateral links soon.

For sure. Nothing holds up better than the original coating from the factory. After you wear thru that, its a scramble to keep on top of the rusting process. Missouri south of HWY 44, or Kansas, Oklahoma, Arkansas and Texas are good somewhat nearby areas to pick up cars. The older Subaru's in this area of the country are also seriously under-valued, especially with that kind of mileage.

Very much looking forward to seeing your struts in action, and in person...after I get my body lift done, I'm going to do something about the lack of travel.

K

Edited February 19, 2019 by travelvw

[pontoontodd]

Went through the front struts on both Outbacks, wanted to change a few things and check them over.  Replaced the one steel reservoir with an aluminum one and changed the valving.

Made some chromoly steel front control arm brackets for the 99 OB.  If they hold up well this year we'll probably make more next winter.

Made the jig using a stock bracket that was in good shape.

Not the strongest jig but seemed to work fine.

One change I wanted to make was having longer slots than the stock brackets.  The control arm and front crossmember is pushed back on the 99 on the driver's side so it's difficult to get a stock bracket bolted in even after elongating the slots.  When you do get it in the arm is rubbing on it and I think that contributed to the failure last year.

Welded.

Painted and assembled.  Had some group N bushings lying around, I had bought them not realizing those are brackets to fit an Impreza.  It seems like many of the normal bushings are grease filled or something, maybe these will last longer.

Also replaced the bolt on front wheel bearings while it was apart.  They seemed fine.  In the future I'll probably just keep a good spare in one of the cars.  We've never had one fail and they're easy to replace.  Replaced some CV boots, a ball joint, and an inner tie rod.  They were all just a little loose or leaky.  Replaced a brake disc that was pretty worn with another used one that is pretty thick.

[pontoontodd]

Does anyone have a good alternative to the stock 1st gen Outback (2nd gen Legacy) HVAC control?  I think I've had two or three of them go bad now.  I tried opening up one of them to clean the contacts and it's now in a million pieces.  The hot/cold cable has always worked perfectly, I wish it had something like that to control which vents the air comes from.

Also my 99 OB hatch is a real pain to open.  Any advice on making that open more easily would be great too.

The good news is that I did some shock tuning and got the 99 jumping better.  Going to see how it works like this and then probably try a few more things when it's warm and dry.

[slammo]

I don't know about the HVAC; I bet you could rig up a way to use the heater box from a first or second gen impreza (full manual or full electronic control, respectively).  I've heard they don't bolt in behind the dash at least, but I don't know of anyone who's tried.

As for the hatch, you probably have a bunch of rust in the handle mechanism.  I dealt with that issue on every rust belt hatch I had.  Replace the handle and the piece where the license plate lights are with one that's not rusty and it'll be night and day.  A little lube on the new one will make it even better.

[pontoontodd]

13 minutes ago, slammo said:

I don't know about the HVAC; I bet you could rig up a way to use the heater box from a first or second gen impreza (full manual or full electronic control, respectively).  I've heard they don't bolt in behind the dash at least, but I don't know of anyone who's tried.

As for the hatch, you probably have a bunch of rust in the handle mechanism.  I dealt with that issue on every rust belt hatch I had.  Replace the handle and the piece where the license plate lights are with one that's not rusty and it'll be night and day.  A little lube on the new one will make it even better.

I'll take another look at the HVAC.

 

The handle rusted out and fell apart a few years ago, during the Vegas to Reno as a matter of fact.  So I got a new one from the dealer.  And yes that was a huge improvement.

It's not tight or high effort, it's like it's still latched shut.  Sometimes if I pull up on one corner of the hatch it will pop open.  I think on my friend's Forester we had to lengthen one of the control rods, I should probably check those.  The key lock hasn't worked for a while but the power lock does, might be related to that.