long travel Outbacks or making Subarus faster and more reliable offroad

[travelvw]

[pontoontodd]

Went to Arkansas for another weekend of trail riding. Met travelvw on the way down. Met slammo and J just north of the Buffalo River and travelvw led the way from there.  From left to right, my 99 Outback, R's long travel Forester w/ dual range, slammo, and travelvw's WRX with KYB AGX struts and King lift springs.

One of the first trails he took us down had this sign at the start and it wasn't lying.

We were driving fast on some rocky roads by the Buffalo River.  I only rode in it for a little while but the WRX rode much better than stock over rocks and dips at speed.  A little harsh on the little stuff and not as smooth as our long travel struts at speed but a huge improvement for the money. The road/trail to Eden falls/cave was closed so we continued along the river towards a campsite he had in mind. We hiked out to Whitaker point / Hawksbill and I found a skink and some salamanders and we saw a pileated woodpecker.

Next we decided to hike to Glory Hole Falls.  This dude was all flexed out in the parking area.

We drove the trail down to the campsite in the dark. I was driving the Outback following everyone else and we went over about thirty jumps on the way down.  Travelvw and slammo were driving slow, partially due to birds in the road, so I was only able to hit a few with enough speed to get air but when we got to camp we decided that first thing Saturday morning we'd have to get some video of some of them. The road we took down crossed the river but was too deep for us to cross at that time.  That night it got down to 20F and some of the water left outside was frozen in the morning.

 

We hit a bunch of the jumps on the way out, not too many of them had smooth and straight landing areas but we got some video (see pictures above from travelvw) and took turns giving everyone rides on the best downhill jump.  Hit one small jump in my 99 Outback and the front dug into the dirt and hit a big rock. It was a hard hit and we immediately noticed the wipers scraping on the windshield. We stopped to bend them back up. I broke the passenger side wiper arm and someone noticed oil running out the front of the car. We pulled over for a couple hours. Fixed the wiper arm with some hose clamps and a wrench we'd found on the trail.

Pulled off all the skidplates and patched up the hole in the timing cover with some minute epoxy. It was very runny and then would suddenly cure so it was tricky to work with but we basically stopped the leak, didn't have to add oil the rest of the week. Skidplate crimped the coolant hose going to the oil cooler too.

Slammo clearanced the skidplate with a sawzall.  We put the skidplates back on and got back on the trail and back to hitting jumps.  The last trail Slammo had us on followed a deep, wide stream with maybe a dozen crossings. We had come to both ends of it last year and decided to turn around after coming to some of the crossings and never saw the worst part. This time we drove the whole thing. At one point slammo was following the only obvious path which turned sharply out of the stream up a bank and he shortly figured out it wasn't the correct path, seemed on foot like it dead ended. We then spent a couple hours getting all four cars back down off that bank and through a rocky streambed. We used slammo's ramps to good effect getting the Forester out of a tight spot and travelvw wound up using his hand winch to slide the back of his car over to line up.  It's a Wyeth Scott and worked great and is clearly much more flexible than using an electric winch.  I took slammo's advice and drove back across the stream to an easier place to turn around which seemed easy but I bent a tie rod in the process, first time I've done that.

A mile or two later we got to the end of the trail. Near the end of the trail was a campsite along the stream we stayed the night at.  M and Z went to work on the tie rod.

Across the road from the end of the trail was a campground with outhouses we used in the morning.  Had to hit the stream crossing at high speed.

First trail of the day immediately took us to a large downed tree. The woods around it was fairly open and we could have just driven around it but slammo wanted to clear the trail. Spent an hour or two with the sawzall and snatch strap pulling that out of the road.

Later that day slammo had us on some crazy rocky hill climbs. Travelvw and I each got a flat tire from big sidewall cuts.

He bent both front control arms back a bit. There was one long steep rough section of climb that I had to take a few runs at. R had no problems with the low range.  This picture was far from the worst of it but we did a lot of miles of this type of rocky climb.

We drove through quite a bit of standing water and washed up a bunch of these what I assume were frog eggs.

At some point we noticed the Outback's LR trailing arm bracket was loose on the frame. The section of sheet metal that's bolted to had rusted/ripped out and really only the front bolt was holding it on. We stopped along a gravel road and wound up cutting those bolts off and running longer bolts all the way up to the upper section of the body. I told Z to look for some big washers in my bag of fasteners and he jokingly suggested using a wheel spacer. It actually was close enough to the bracket bolt pattern that we were eventually able to get all three bolts all the way through.

While we were doing that Travelvw used a strap to a tree to bend his control arms forward a bit so his tires wouldn't rub.

The last trail we were on took us to Spainhour falls, a pretty large waterfall you can camp next to.  The trail isn't extremely long or difficult but is rocky with a bunch of stream crossings, seemed a lot worse at night than the next morning in the daylight.  There were of course people at the campsite so we drove a bit farther down the trail and found an old side road that was blocked off/overgrown to camp at for our privacy and their peace and quiet.

The next morning I got the last trailing arm bolt out and put a long one up through the wheel spacer, checked over everything, packed up, and the IL/IN contingent headed out.  This was along the trail to Spainhour on the way out.

[pontoontodd]

Drove all day down to Florida on Monday.  The next morning I visited a customer.  On the way home I pulled off in the woods at some jumps I found in north Florida and checked the trailing arm bracket. Still seemed rock solid so I hit a few jumps.

Filmed one uphill jump at 25, 30, 35, and 40mph.

All of the trails in that area are covered in jumps, every few hundred feet there is a jump of some kind. Could be over 100 within a couple miles of there.

[jf1sf5]

Another nice trip report, thanks !

As for the jumps in the video, it seems that the 35mph is the most comfortable !

[pontoontodd]

18 minutes ago, jf1sf5 said:

Another nice trip report, thanks !

As for the jumps in the video, it seems that the 35mph is the most comfortable !

Yes, the 35mph landing was fine, the 40mph landing was harsh so I stopped there.

[pontoontodd]

This is what the trailing arm mount looked like.

This part had completely rusted off.

 

Cleaned off rust, paint, and undercoating.

There was also a small crack just behind the trailing arm mount.

1/8" mild steel plates to cover the hole and spread the load.

I welded these sleeves to the top plate so the bolts had something solid to tighten against.

Welded the plates in place.  Welded the bottom one to the inside of the rocker panel which probably helps tie the body together.  At the top of the picture you can see where part of the weld for the top plate burned through the undercoating.

The other side looks fine for now but I'll probably do this to the other side over the winter.

[pontoontodd]

C obtained two free Jeeps that had sat for two years from the house next to his dad's when it got foreclosed. They towed them both behind a truck to their shop to work on them. The rear Jeep was in decent shape and had brakes but they were dragging. While towing suddenly the brakes on the rear Jeep freed up and it surged forward so he hit the brakes. This nearly pulled the middle Jeep in half. C put a $35 junkyard battery in it, hotwired the security system, and started it with a screwdriver.

Convoyed with C's crew to Badlands off road park on Saturday.  Went to the big parking lot to unload and set up flags, R got there shortly after we did. Cherokee cranked fine but wouldn't start.  C had read the capacitors on the ECU go bad. He pulled the ECU out of it and one of the capacitors did look bad. He dug the potting out from around the capacitor and we robbed one out of the radio. Z soldered the radio capacitor in place and the Jeep fired up.

C bagged the ECU and beat on it all afternoon.  The red Chevy pickup quickly died, it had a flat tire and a bad CV joint among other issues. On the way to the stream we stopped by the small figure 8 to air up the Cherokee's leaking tire. It had gravel under the bead, a can of fix a flat didn't help, eventually it came completely off the bead and then we were able to air it back up and it held all day. While we were doing that a couple guys pulled up in a brand new Wrangler and we convinced them to take a lap of the figure 8. He swore it was a rental from Hertz. We ran the stream and then went back to the parking lot to get the ATV. Hit both the figure eights, dragon tail, etc. Most of the time the Cherokee was running hot so we had to keep letting it cool off and add water. Dumped in a bottle of head gasket fix which may have helped. Battery wasn't clamped down and broke the top of the coil off, so that got zip tied on and came loose occasionally. Rental Jeep was stuck on a narrow uphill climb and started to slide towards a tree. R tried to pull him down and to the side but the Jeep slid right next to the tree. I pulled up and set up the winch, put a snatch block on the opposite side of the trail and winched him back up on the trail. C tried a similar climb and slid down into some small trees and brush and got stuck. I ripped his rear bumper off with the strap, looked like it was just held on by two screws. After that he was able to back out under his own power. Then C decided we should hit some jumps. He hit the pointy one at the top of the hill I'd hit at 40 in the Outback a year or two ago. Hit it at about 35 in the Cherokee and nosedived badly but survived.

Then I was going to hit the uphill flat jump in the Outback, set up the cameras, C got in, and we quickly realized the rear spider gears were broken.

Towed that back to the parking lot. About this point the ATV wasn't running so we just went trail riding in the three remaining vehicles. Got back to the concrete hill climb which is rougher than it was a few years ago and a little wet/muddy. R tried a few times with the low range without success, had to hit it with momentum and got to the top. C got up with a lot of throttle and momentum in the Cherokee. Z didn't like the looks of it since the Forester XT is still mostly stock and riding on city boy tires. Had him drive up about halfway to the big hole and stop. Then C pulled him up with the Cherokee. Ran down the rock pile and the rest of that trail. Hooked the Outback up to the Forester and flat towed it home.

Think I found a rear diff with 4.11 and LSD.  From pictures I've seen the spider gears in those look stronger.  If nothing else a relatively fresh one should last me the rest of the year and I can do the 6MT/low range/R180 conversion next winter.

[jf1sf5]

Your Outback is like the Terminator in the first opus, it just doesn't die !

[pontoontodd]

Took the rear diff out of the car and confirmed those gear teeth came from the spider gears.  Side note, it's really best to just remove both rear CV axles completely rather than just one and trying to get the diff out with the other axle still attached to the knuckle, even with the strut out.

Looked for most of a week and couldn't get a 4.11 with VLSD.  The only yard that I think had one never got back to me about shipping.  So I looked it up and the 2002(?) Outback EJ25 4EAT rear subframe I have in my backyard is a 4.44 with VLSD.  Thought about putting a 4.44 trans in the car and using it but decided against it for various reasons.  One is that I still want to do the 6MT/R180 swap over the winter which should solve these problems.  So I took the VLSD out of that rear end.  The side gears are flanged or webbed so they should be much stronger.  Unfortunately the idler gears don't look any stronger than the open diff, hopefully this thing will last eight months or so.

My friend brought over the 4.11 open rear end from his 2000 Forester.  Despite the fact that he's been soaking the bolts with penetrant for the last few days about half of them broke off.  Fortunately I was able to thread most of them out with vise grips but I did have to drill and tap a few holes.

So I made one good diff out of two good diffs and put it in the car.  Haven't driven it much as I want to address the front structure but seems to work fine and makes no obvious bad sounds.  Ran it with some cheap gear oil, drained it after driving a bit, oil came out clean.

[1997reduxe]

Not to interrupt y’alls thread, but I have a 95 legacy wagon with 5mt that seems to be getting slowly worse. Have changed fluid etc. The whole car otherwise it’s pretty reliable I’ve maintained since I got it. 

I’m planning on replacing the trans, in my search this list keeps coming up. I’m interested in possibly putting in a 6mt, I have heard mention of the STI one I guess that’s why this post it mentions it.

But if anyone could point me to any info on what 6 speed trans would fit, or I imagine the older transes  would be about shot, so any info on whether there are any jdm-type transmissions that are much newer and would work? (5 speed or 6)

thanks for any help, you could message me to not interrupt your thread, but I would think this topic is enlightening like most things here.

or, just other search terms.

thanks again.

’97

Edited April 6, 2019 by 1997reduxe

[pontoontodd]

1 hour ago, 1997reduxe said:

Not to interrupt y’alls thread, but I have a 95 legacy wagon with 5mt that seems to be getting slowly worse. Have changed fluid etc. The whole car otherwise it’s pretty reliable I’ve maintained since I got it. 

I’m planning on replacing the trans, in my search this list keeps coming up. I’m interested in possibly putting in a 6mt, I have heard mention of the STI one I guess that’s why this post it mentions it.

But if anyone could point me to any info on what 6 speed trans would fit, or I imagine the older transes  would be about shot, so any info on whether there are any jdm-type transmissions that are much newer and would work? (5 speed or 6)

thanks for any help, you could message me to not interrupt your thread, but I would think this topic is enlightening like most things here.

or, just other search terms.

thanks again.

’97

So it looks like you have a 3.9 final drive. 

This is mostly from memory so check elsewhere before acting on any of this advice.

A 6MT swap out of an STI wouldn't be too bad.  Make sure to get one with 1:1 rear transfer gears to work with your 3.9 final drive.  The crossmember/mount is different but not a lot.  You would probably need a shorter driveshaft.  Front axles fit I think.  I have read about some people using their five speed push type clutch but I'm not sure how that would work, you might need a 6MT STI flywheel/clutch/pressure plate/release bearing/starter.  You'd want the 6MT shifter.  The earlier (pre 2004) 6MTs from Japan are cheaper but weaker since they have a viscous center diff.

I haven't looked into them too closely, but the late model 6MT (Crosstrek, etc) looks like it uses a different shifter than the 5MT, doesn't have a VSS, and I think they're all 4.44 final drive.

If the original trans lasted a quarter million miles and you just want something similar but fresh and you're not doing anything abusive to the car, I'd stick with the 5MT.  I don't know if that trans has a cable speedo or a speed sensor (VSS) but I think they are interchangeable without splitting the trans.  Regardless you'd need a trans with a VSS or you'll probably piss off the ECU.  So that means before 2009, depends on the model.  After that they not only didn't machine the case for the VSS, they didn't machine third/fourth gear to drive it.  I think in about 2000 or 2005, again depending on model, they went to the front CV axles with male splines at the trans.  If you get one of those transmissions, which would likely have less wear and tear than an older trans, you'd either have to get the later model CV axles to go with it which probably use different ABS sensors or get transmission stubs from a 4EAT or STI 6MT (fairly cheap from the dealer).  If you go with the stubs you'll either need to swap in smaller seals or get bearing sleeves (that's what mine did but I think they leak a little).

I got lucky with the last trans I bought, it had been sitting at a junkyard for a decade.  It was out of a crash test car so it only had 52 miles on it.  You can sort by mileage on car-part.com.

JDM should work too as far as I know, haven't looked into that for 5MT.

 

 

Your easiest and safest bet would be to figure out what 5MTs have 3.9 final drive.  Secondary concern would be the other ratios but check on those.  You can find some info on cars101.com.  jdmfsm.info has factory service manuals, those should have ratios.  You can also look up individual models/years on subarupartwholesale.com.  One convenient thing about that is you can pick a complete trans or just the ring and pinion gear and find other models/years with the same trans or R&P.  For instance looking up the 3.90 front R&P:

https://www.subarupartwholesale.com/p/Subaru_1995_Legacy-22L-MT-4WD-Brighton-Wagon/GEAR-SET-HYPOID/49247774/38100AB310.html

(click on what this fits)

Once you narrow it down a bit start looking on car-part.com for a local low mileage trans.  Again if the original trans lasted 25 years you can probably get one from a junkyard with 100-150k miles on it for $500 or less that will last you a decade or so.

[scalman]

cool . so youv tried that old grand sherokee and how you find it ? well not for jumping sure but as normal off road car with some lift and large tires and right gearbox where you can choose 2wd , part time , full time and low it must be awesome and they very soft to drive very boaty feeling in them no ? and it would have much more choises as project there are so many things for them 

[1997reduxe]

Pontoontodd thank you so much. That is the nicest and longest and most detailed response I’ve ever gotten here, and that’s saying a lot. This place is the best. Have a great day.

 

’97

[pontoontodd]

12 hours ago, 1997reduxe said:

Pontoontodd thank you so much. That is the nicest and longest and most detailed response I’ve ever gotten here, and that’s saying a lot. This place is the best. Have a great day.

 

’97

You're welcome.  One more thing I should have pointed out is the late model 6MT in the Crosstrek, etc is similar to the 5MT and nothing like the 6MT in the STI.

[pontoontodd]

18 hours ago, scalman said:

cool . so youv tried that old grand sherokee and how you find it ? well not for jumping sure but as normal off road car with some lift and large tires and right gearbox where you can choose 2wd , part time , full time and low it must be awesome and they very soft to drive very boaty feeling in them no ? and it would have much more choises as project there are so many things for them 

Those Cherokees are common around here, I have seen them for sale locally with good tires, winch, sometimes even better axles for $2000.

You would love it, you can go very slow and it has real 4WD.  It's the sort of thing you should be saving your money for when your current Outback gets too rusty to fix.

The ride quality is terrible.  Supposedly there is one long travel kit you can get for them that works well but I haven't seen it in person.  I have also seen people who use them for desert racing or prerunning swap in a twin traction beam front suspension and drive out of a Ford but that's a lot of work.

[scalman]

19 hours ago, pontoontodd said:

Those Cherokees are common around here, I have seen them for sale locally with good tires, winch, sometimes even better axles for $2000.

You would love it, you can go very slow and it has real 4WD.  It's the sort of thing you should be saving your money for when your current Outback gets too rusty to fix.

The ride quality is terrible.  Supposedly there is one long travel kit you can get for them that works well but I haven't seen it in person.  I have also seen people who use them for desert racing or prerunning swap in a twin traction beam front suspension and drive out of a Ford but that's a lot of work.

so ride is bad ? and i need car for long travels and that car would control and feel on road well ? what aboput newer WJ model then of grand , not just simple sherokee. or newer WK with independant front suspension , that supose to be then better on road is it ? i need more overland car that if i would feel i could get with it thousands km without problem failures and such. 

Here 2000-2004 goes for similar prices as same years grand sherokee's , but 2005-2010 grands here are cheaper then same year outbacks. But for that year car i would need get loan for like 6 years and pay for it monthly . 

Edited April 8, 2019 by scalman

[slammo]

.

Edited April 8, 2019 by slammo

[pontoontodd]

18 hours ago, scalman said:

so ride is bad ? and i need car for long travels and that car would control and feel on road well ? what aboput newer WJ model then of grand , not just simple sherokee. or newer WK with independant front suspension , that supose to be then better on road is it ? i need more overland car that if i would feel i could get with it thousands km without problem failures and such. 

Here 2000-2004 goes for similar prices as same years grand sherokee's , but 2005-2010 grands here are cheaper then same year outbacks. But for that year car i would need get loan for like 6 years and pay for it monthly . 

Sounds like what you need is a Raptor.  You're going to be making payments either way.  Should be reliable, fast, excellent ride quality, etc.

[travelvw]

On 4/7/2019 at 7:45 PM, slammo said:

.

Helluva point.

K

[scalman]

19 hours ago, pontoontodd said:

Sounds like what you need is a Raptor.  You're going to be making payments either way.  Should be reliable, fast, excellent ride quality, etc.

Nah dont think raptor fits me at all. Jeep wj i would think more for me with quadra drive , price is ok but lots on petrol or even lpg. I saw how good those newer grands wh/wk doing offroad with quadra drive 2 both e lockers too. No need any mods just some lift and tires maybe. 

Talking here about price 4-5k euros no more . its a lot for me still. Wj would be just some 1.5-3k . but scary thing is what if it money eater. Subaru is very cheap to maintain and drive 

Edited April 9, 2019 by scalman

[1997reduxe]

I will respond because the two best cars I’ve ever had were sube and 94 Jeep Cherokee.

that Cherokee was just into the time when they started making them better, they had the inline 6 4.0 liter engine, I bought it with 10,000 miles on it I paid half down I had good money then. 

But I never hardly even maintained it for the first 100k miles, then I did and it died at 250k only cause I drove it through a guardrail and into a tree after a night watching dancers. That was a great engine. It was the basic sport Jeep, boxy.

i often think about getting another I had never had 4x4 before that, after I got it I thought like dr Phil says what was I thinking?

that was Pennsylvania, the thing too was the body never rusted. At all.

but I love me some subes. Including my first one of my old girlfriends, this one I have now is my 5th or 6th. 

But if you’re looking for jeeps Texas where I’m at now is the place, there’s no snow here ever so they are immaculate for like 2-3000? I looked at one a fb guy I knew bought in new hampshore, it was terrible the front end you couldn’t tell which part was which.

 

[1997reduxe]

Just some examples:

https://austin.craigslist.org/search/sso?query=jeep+cherokee&sort=priceasc

[pontoontodd]

Video from our trip to Arkansas a few weeks ago. We are probably going back the weekend of 4/27 if anyone wants to join us.

 

 

[jf1sf5]

Your best video, really enjoyed it !

[el_freddo]

I watch that and think “if they had the dual range gearboxes like we do, I wonder what they’d get into then!”.

Great video. 

Cheers 

Bennie