long travel Outbacks or making Subarus faster and more reliable offroad

[pontoontodd]

35 minutes ago, el_freddo said:

I watch that and think “if they had the dual range gearboxes like we do, I wonder what they’d get into then!”.

Great video. 

Cheers 

Bennie

Blue Forester has a 1.6 dual range and it was a huge benefit.  There are some hills I have in mind when I make a low range for my 99 Outback.

[pontoontodd]

So I can and will look some of this up but I have a bunch of questions I'm hoping you guys can help me with.

Planning on towing one of my Outbacks to California with the other one and trail riding both back to Illinois. 

I could tow the black 99 with the white 2002.  One concern is that the 99 is heavier than the 2002, but if I put all the heavy cargo in the 2002 for the trip out it would probably be a little heavier.  My other concern is whether the 4EAT is up to the task.  I flat towed that bug back from California with no issues and never saw the auto trans temp light but this would be harder on it.

If I tow the 2002 with the 99 I would have to make some changes to the 2002.  First, I'd have to disconnect various things or get a trans pump for the auto so it doesn't die, right?  Second, I would want to wire in a trailer plug to the front of the car so I'm not using magnetic tow lights and scratching up the paint.  What is a good way to splice into the brake lights?

Also, I've been driving the 2002 and it's been fine but yesterday we had freezing rain.  I don't think the roads were actually icy, just wet, but I was getting a ton of wheelspin in the front like it was just front wheel drive.  I tried 1 and I couldn't tell if it was still spinning or just hitting the top of first gear and not upshifting.  I tried 2 and there was no wheelspin but it seemed like it was starting out in second so it was pretty slow.  When we were at the off road park last November it seemed to work best in 1 and seemed to have all wheels driving.  Traction was decent this winter when I've driven it.  What should I check to make sure it is still all wheel driving?  What is the easiest way to lock the center diff if needed?

[Numbchux]

35 minutes ago, pontoontodd said:

So I can and will look some of this up but I have a bunch of questions I'm hoping you guys can help me with.

Planning on towing one of my Outbacks to California with the other one and trail riding both back to Illinois. 

I could tow the black 99 with the white 2002.  One concern is that the 99 is heavier than the 2002, but if I put all the heavy cargo in the 2002 for the trip out it would probably be a little heavier.  My other concern is whether the 4EAT is up to the task.  I flat towed that bug back from California with no issues and never saw the auto trans temp light but this would be harder on it.

If I tow the 2002 with the 99 I would have to make some changes to the 2002.  First, I'd have to disconnect various things or get a trans pump for the auto so it doesn't die, right?  Second, I would want to wire in a trailer plug to the front of the car so I'm not using magnetic tow lights and scratching up the paint.  What is a good way to splice into the brake lights?

Also, I've been driving the 2002 and it's been fine but yesterday we had freezing rain.  I don't think the roads were actually icy, just wet, but I was getting a ton of wheelspin in the front like it was just front wheel drive.  I tried 1 and I couldn't tell if it was still spinning or just hitting the top of first gear and not upshifting.  I tried 2 and there was no wheelspin but it seemed like it was starting out in second so it was pretty slow.  When we were at the off road park last November it seemed to work best in 1 and seemed to have all wheels driving.  Traction was decent this winter when I've driven it.  What should I check to make sure it is still all wheel driving?  What is the easiest way to lock the center diff if needed?

Yea, I don't think it's worth trying to modify the 4EAT to be towed (or leave it idling the entire time...). So if you're going to do it, I'd definitely tow the '99. You'll want some extra cooling capacity on the '02, though. Last summer we went camping with my wife and daughter (about a year and a half at the time), aluminum boat (probably 1k lbs), bikes, tents, coolers, etc. etc. etc. I'm sure we were over GVWR, in our '04 VDC with an aux trans cooler. On the way out, it was about 95*F, and we had the A/C cranked. After a couple hours, the engine temp started to creep. We ended up turning the A/C off and taking it easy up the hills and it managed.

 

Is your 02 a VDC? Either way, "1" and "2" will make the Duty C programming a bit more aggressive, but yes, "2" will keep it from downshifting to first.

[pontoontodd]

1 hour ago, Numbchux said:

Yea, I don't think it's worth trying to modify the 4EAT to be towed (or leave it idling the entire time...). So if you're going to do it, I'd definitely tow the '99. You'll want some extra cooling capacity on the '02, though. Last summer we went camping with my wife and daughter (about a year and a half at the time), aluminum boat (probably 1k lbs), bikes, tents, coolers, etc. etc. etc. I'm sure we were over GVWR, in our '04 VDC with an aux trans cooler. On the way out, it was about 95*F, and we had the A/C cranked. After a couple hours, the engine temp started to creep. We ended up turning the A/C off and taking it easy up the hills and it managed.

 

Is your 02 a VDC? Either way, "1" and "2" will make the Duty C programming a bit more aggressive, but yes, "2" will keep it from downshifting to first.

I do have the extra cooler on the 2002.  Not VDC.

I did figure out why the front tires were spinning.  The left rear axle pulled out of the diff.  Guess I made the links a little too long.  Will see if I have a longer rear axle to put in there.  According to my notes that is the short one, maybe a right rear axle will fix it.

My other thought on putting a trans pump on the 2002 (that's how people flat tow automatics behind motor homes, right?) is that if that car dies then we can tow it home without pulling axles, driveshafts, etc.

[Numbchux]

22 hours ago, pontoontodd said:

I do have the extra cooler on the 2002.  Not VDC.

I did figure out why the front tires were spinning.  The left rear axle pulled out of the diff.  Guess I made the links a little too long.  Will see if I have a longer rear axle to put in there.  According to my notes that is the short one, maybe a right rear axle will fix it.

My other thought on putting a trans pump on the 2002 (that's how people flat tow automatics behind motor homes, right?) is that if that car dies then we can tow it home without pulling axles, driveshafts, etc.

That'll do it!

 

I've never personally researched flat towing, but my grandparents lived in their motorhome for 10 years, and bought several cars in that time, and they went out of their way to find vehicles that were approved for flat towing from the manufacturer. So I was under the impression retrofitting wasn't possible. Of course, the last one they bought was probably 10 years ago, so things could easily have changed since then.

[pontoontodd]

5 minutes ago, Numbchux said:

That'll do it!

 

I've never personally researched flat towing, but my grandparents lived in their motorhome for 10 years, and bought several cars in that time, and they went out of their way to find vehicles that were approved for flat towing from the manufacturer. So I was under the impression retrofitting wasn't possible. Of course, the last one they bought was probably 10 years ago, so things could easily have changed since then.

After looking into it a little further I will just tow the 99 with the 2002.  Those pumps are $900-1500 and many of the reviews online I've read are bad.  Could probably just idle the 2002 while I tow it for 2+ days but that's not ideal either.  Does anyone know how quickly or dramatically an auto trans will fail if flat towed?  I'm just thinking if the trans dies out west and I have to flat tow it home, is it going to lock up and/or burst into flames?  Or do I take a couple bad outer CVs to put in the wheel bearings after pulling the front axles?  Would I need to pull the driveshaft?

On the plus side the auto must be locking up the center diff or I wouldn't have had any drive with that rear axle popped out of the diff.

[jf1sf5]

Because you love jumps and because I just found this video...

 

[Numbchux]

2 hours ago, pontoontodd said:

After looking into it a little further I will just tow the 99 with the 2002.  Those pumps are $900-1500 and many of the reviews online I've read are bad.  Could probably just idle the 2002 while I tow it for 2+ days but that's not ideal either.  Does anyone know how quickly or dramatically an auto trans will fail if flat towed?  I'm just thinking if the trans dies out west and I have to flat tow it home, is it going to lock up and/or burst into flames?  Or do I take a couple bad outer CVs to put in the wheel bearings after pulling the front axles?  Would I need to pull the driveshaft?

On the plus side the auto must be locking up the center diff or I wouldn't have had any drive with that rear axle popped out of the diff.

I don't think I've ever actually heard/seen failure due to flat towing. But the ATF would not circulate, so there's potential for bearing failure on several components, I think I'd be most worried about the stuff in the transfer section. I know there's a little pipe that feeds fluid up to the upper bearing in that rear output. Without any fluid flow there, I don't imagine that would last long (and the rear output rides right on that bearing, so yea, you'd have to pull the shaft to prevent that).

Non VDC/VTD 4EATs do not send the torque for the front wheels through the transfer clutches, so that's not surprising at all. Pop out a front axle and try it again....you'll have a different experience 

[pontoontodd]

A recurring problem on my 99 Outback has been the cowl buckling/tearing/cracking.  I have posted a few pictures in the past of some welding I've done when the windshield has been replaced (lost count how many times now).  Symptoms of this include the wiper arms rubbing on the windshield and the windshield cracking from the bottom corners up.  At least partially caused by hard nose first landings off jumps.  This car doesn't have a great approach angle.  Also had the fronts a little too soft on the Arkansas trip so it was bottoming out too easily.  Changed the shock valving, hopefully it will jump more level now too.

This portion of the body completely separated from the door hinge area at the end of the last Vegas to Reno and we straightened it back out and welded it then (1.5 years ago?).  It has started to crack and buckle again.  The other side didn't look quite this bad but there are various small cracks all around both front strut towers.

First step I tried was pulling the strut mounts back down.  Despite shortening up both ends of the come a long I still eventually ran out of travel but had a good load on it.  A lot of the displacement was crushing that front part of the floor the tube is pulling up against but I reduced the distance from that tube to the strut tower by about 1.5".  I was also hoping this will give me a little more lift and tire clearance.

Also kept having problems with the come a long.  My good one is in another state.  This one just has some stamped pieces tabbed together so I welded those and it started working better.

With the spring and bump stop off the strut this is as high as the tire goes.  Not a very good perspective but have a little clearance all the way around.  Wanted to reinforce the front end without reducing this clearance.

Cut out big slots above the wheel wells on both sides for tubing.  Also drilled big holes with a step drill into the strut tower.

 

After cutting into that, found more sheet metal buckled, cracked, and torn.  Welded some of it before installing tubing.

These are most of the pieces we cut to add to the body.

This is how it looked fully welded, the top tube is a piece of 2" x 4" that goes all the way in to the strut tower.

Fortunately the door frame seems fairly strong.  The only wiring inside where I'm welding is for the door so I pulled that out while welding and wrapped a wet rag around it.  Also sprayed some water in that part of the body.  I really hope this doesn't just start ripping the door frame apart.

Added the clean piece of sheet metal to the bottom of the strut mount and a gusset on either side to brace it.  The big holes drilled in the strut tower allowed me to plug weld that to the 2"x4" tube.  Some of these welds were nearly impossible to see with the welding helmet on.  It's rough but hopefully strong enough.

This is how the other side turned out.

 

 

 

This is how it looks painted, not that anyone will ever see it, but hopefully delays the rusting process long enough we can finish the Vegas to Reno some year.

 

 

Fenders fit over that tubing with a little room to spare.  Car is mostly back together, will hopefully drive it this week.  Once we get a little dry weather I'll test out the new shock tuning.

[el_freddo]

Love it!

I was going to say that the rally mods done to the old L series involved welding a triangular plate in that same section. They also welded a plate over a seam just under each corner of the windscreen and a plate in each foot well up front. 

But that will certainly do the job. Spreading the load I’d say it’ll be fine and not rip out the door hinge mount section (lower A pillar section?).

Keep up the good work! 

Cheers 

Bennie

[FerGloyale]

Man that's sweet.  Inspiring me to check out my EA81.  I've got a weird creaking cracking sound every time I go on/off throttle.  Never broke a windsheild though.  I might well do something similar to what you did here.  It looks sick.  I wouldn't put fenders back on!

Maybe tie to that laterally behind the wheel down to the A-arm rear mount?  Small tube or bar/strap even  down from strut tower plate sistered against inner side of wheel well? To spread forces on the strut top down to the main beam under the floor.

And maybe down the front of the wheel well to the tow hook area of main frame beam?

Also please please don't get in a head on wreck now cause you've got zero crumple zones for energy absorption.  Big G's gonna hit you if you have a head firster.  Not just on you either you gotta really watch out for the dumb assholes out there now.

[pontoontodd]

1 hour ago, el_freddo said:

Love it!

I was going to say that the rally mods done to the old L series involved welding a triangular plate in that same section. They also welded a plate over a seam just under each corner of the windscreen and a plate in each foot well up front. 

But that will certainly do the job. Spreading the load I’d say it’ll be fine and not rip out the door hinge mount section (lower A pillar section?).

Keep up the good work! 

Cheers 

Bennie

I haven't seen plates but I have seen tubular bolt on braces from the door hinges to that area, but there's not much solid to bolt to above the wheel.

1 hour ago, FerGloyale said:

Man that's sweet.  Inspiring me to check out my EA81.  I've got a weird creaking cracking sound every time I go on/off throttle.  Never broke a windsheild though.  I might well do something similar to what you did here.  It looks sick.  I wouldn't put fenders back on!

Maybe tie to that laterally behind the wheel down to the A-arm rear mount?  Small tube or bar/strap even  down from strut tower plate sistered against inner side of wheel well? To spread forces on the strut top down to the main beam under the floor.

And maybe down the front of the wheel well to the tow hook area of main frame beam?

Also please please don't get in a head on wreck now cause you've got zero crumple zones for energy absorption.  Big G's gonna hit you if you have a head firster.  Not just on you either you gotta really watch out for the dumb assholes out there now.

I've thought about running something down from the strut tower but haven't thought of a good way to do it.  Also would have liked to run that vertical tube all the way down and over to the control arm mount but the tire would probably rub and the fender wouldn't fit.

Tried not to run anything forward of the suspension for the crumple zone reason you describe.  Aside from not killing the occupants, it would be better from a potential repair standpoint to have the front foot or two of the car smash up rather than transferring that back to the cab and wrecking the whole body.

[travelvw]

Nice to see a solid attempt at tackling this major structural issue on your car, looks great!!
K

[Numbchux]

I'm surprised you didn't have something like that already. That sort of bracing is pretty SOP on rally cars. Here's what we did on Ziptie Rally v2 to reinforce the tower and tie it into the cage:

 

 

In addition to a pretty beefy bolt-on fender brace that used both hinges.

[pontoontodd]

2 hours ago, Numbchux said:

I'm surprised you didn't have something like that already. That sort of bracing is pretty SOP on rally cars. Here's what we did on Ziptie Rally v2 to reinforce the tower and tie it into the cage:

 

 

In addition to a pretty beefy bolt-on fender brace that used both hinges.

In hindsight, yes, we should have figured out some way to do that but when we put in the cage we didn't remove the dash.  It is very difficult to remove and install the dash even though it's cut in half  with the cage installed.  Also the car now has 1.5 wiring harnesses in it.

[Numbchux]

31 minutes ago, pontoontodd said:

In hindsight, yes, we should have figured out some way to do that but when we put in the cage we didn't remove the dash.  It is very difficult to remove and install the dash even though it's cut in half  with the cage installed.  Also the car now has 1.5 wiring harnesses in it.

Oh yea, it's a nightmare. Even with the A-pillar bars tight up against the firewall it makes it tough. I worked on a car where they had built the cage with the dash in place, and threaded the bars through the side defrost openings. We had to swap it to a non-turbo for a season, and it ended up with most of 2 harnesses in it so we wouldn't have to take it out twice in about 10 months.

[el_freddo]

3 hours ago, pontoontodd said:

the car now has 1.5 wiring harnesses in it.

Classic! Gotta love projects like this!

I guess any EJ swapped L series or MYs are basically the same. I’ve never thought much about this. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[FerGloyale]

4 hours ago, el_freddo said:

 

I guess any EJ swapped L series or MYs are basically the same. I’ve never thought much about this. 

 

 

My EA81 wheeler has 3 harnesses!

Original EA81 carbed wiring (w/headlight wiring routed through spare tire well behind engine, rather than under radiator)

EA82 SPFI conversion for EA81 engine wiring with ECU under the column

And EJ22 wiring from 93 legacy.  ECU behind glovebox.

 

I left the SPFI just "incase" I ever wanted to put an EA81 back in.  Plus it's just easier to leave it rather than go through the trouble of removing.

[pontoontodd]

Highlight video I put together of our long travel struts in action.  Have some better jumps planned and still working on the shock tuning.

 

[Numbchux]

Excellent highlight video. About a minute in, the slow rock trail is what I like. I don't think I've done anything quite that gnarly in our Outback, but close.

 

18 hours ago, el_freddo said:

Classic! Gotta love projects like this!

I guess any EJ swapped L series or MYs are basically the same. I’ve never thought much about this. 

Cheers 

Bennie

A clean swap will remove the un-used parts of the harness, merging 2 into 1. Although the older cars have very little there to remove, so it's not as big of a deal to just leave it.

[pontoontodd]

One of the issues we had in Arkansas with my 99 OB is that the skidplate hangs fairly low and hits when landing off jumps, it has been pushed up a bit, and the engine moves on the rubber mounts when landing.  So after clearancing it some in Arkansas it looked like this:

We clearanced it some more, pulled it down, welded a new tab on and reinstalled it and now have more clearance.  Hopefully it won't bend, there are four ribs behind it. 

Also my friend suggested getting rid of the metal coolant pipe that has been dented a few times now so I routed the coolant hose to the oil cooler differently.

 

Had a few Subarus parked outside.

 

We ran our cars over some jumps and parking barriers to test out some different shock valving on the 99 OB and 2001 Forester.  The big disappointment is that what I thought was improved shock tuning over the winter was probably mostly the jumps being rounded off by the snow and ice.  Still have some ideas to try next.

The rack on the 2001 Forester was a little loose so we replaced that, a rack boot, a front wheel bearing, and some CV boots while things were apart.

[Prwa101]

Glad to still see this build is still alive! Much inspiration to be had here!  

[pontoontodd]

I was trying out some different shock valving on the 99 Outback at our friend's jumps nearby.  They are pointy and built more for dirt bikes than cars but it is convenient to hit the same thing every time and try different shock valving and get video to try to get the cars to jump more level and not bottom out too hard.  I think I have made some improvement but the cars still nose down over these jumps even just in first gear.  For reference:

In the winter the Outback was jumping pretty level over a few of them in second gear but the snow and ice was rounding them off significantly.  Yesterday I hit them again with some different valving and got some video and forgot a stool there I had taken to use as a tripod.  This morning I drove back out to get the stool and while I was there I decided to hit the jumps in second to see how it went.  The first one is small, I figured if that went poorly I'd back off for the next two.  That's what happened but the car still nosed in pretty badly off one and then I smelled oil, looked down to see the oil pressure light on and shut off the engine.  Fortunately I only drove a hundred feet or so after the jump at low load and RPM.  Turns out I hit one of the side skidplates hard enough to break the part of the block the oil filter/cooler bolt threads into.

You can sort of see where it smashed the tube coming out of the oil cooler.

This is the piece of the block that broke off and the oil filter/cooler bolt.

There are probably as many or more threads left in the block as there are in that part that broke off.  My plan for the time being is to obtain or make a longer bolt and drill/tap the block deeper.  Anyone know where to get a longer bolt, perhaps from a different engine?

Definitely need to remake that skidplate farther from the filter/cooler and more heavy duty.  Right now it is just 1/16" 4130.

Good thing that happened locally.

Thought about replacing the upper oil pan (the filter goes on the side) and the timing cover.  Subaru doesn't sell the upper oil pan.  I do have a good upper oil pan and timing cover I could take off the leaky H6 sitting in my shop but that would be like two engine teardowns.  Maybe over the winter.

In related news the white Outback can flat tow the black Outback fairly well from a power and stability standpoint but the brakes are very marginal.  I let some smoke out of them on the way home and then started downshifting the auto trans which helped.

[slammo]

You may want to put the original brakes back on the white outback if you're going to be towing more.  You can find 15" wheels that clear them or use wheel spacers with OEM 15s, or try the caliper grinding trick.

[pontoontodd]

On the plus side there aren't any extra cracks in the windshield after those bad landings.

 

We worked on getting more travel out of the 2002 Outback rear suspension this weekend.  First step for the longer shocks was to cut a hole in the floor.

This will be the base plate the shock tabs are welded to.  There will also be one under the floor for added strength.

I took this picture after we cut the hole but this was a stock bracket to reinforce the shock mount.  We thought that was a good idea.

This is how the shock mount looks tacked in.  The outer tab will be welded to that plate that bolts into the side of the body.  Hole in the base plate had to be slotted/enlarged to get the shock out with the reservoir hose.

With the shock installed.  We will have to remove the spring and discharge and compress the shock so we can swing it enough to snake down out of that hole.  Not ideal but if we're taking the shocks out we'll probably discharge them and remove the springs either way.

The Fox shocks I had on there had about 5" of shaft travel and 8" of wheel travel.  With these longer shafts and bodies and moving the upper mount up into the car we now have 7" of shaft travel and about 11" of wheel travel.  The upper link hits the body at full bump but the worn down tire is starting to rub on the wheel well too.  Limiting full droop a little shy of where the inner CV bottoms out.  Have extra shaft travel too in case we come up with a way to use it.  Also changed the shock valving while they're apart.

Will probably take a few days to get everything painted and assembled and then I'll test it out.