pontoontodd Posted June 6, 2022 Author Share Posted June 6, 2022 Drove up to Z's house last Thursday and stole his truck so we could pick up slammo at the airport. By the time we got back Z was home and had a cam position trouble code on the FXT. Sounded like the root cause was probably plugged filter screens at the turbo and cam phaser acuators. They didn't seem super dirty but we removed them all. Just to be safe B drove down to the only Oreillys that had the phasers and sensors and bought those. In the meantime A and I went to the grocery store to buy food. Then we finished loading up and headed north. By the time we got close to the UP it was getting dark so we were just looking for a place to camp. Saw a trail in WI but it was of course ATV/UTV only. As soon as we got in the UP we went down some trails and found a spot to camp next to a small lake. The next morning we trail rode up to the Baraga pipeline grade. Hit a couple sandy stunt areas on the southern end. The best jump we found was actually one farther north than we normally go on the grade. Hit some powerline grade near there next and started heading east. We were on a lot of trails we'd never seen before and covered about 200 miles mostly off pavement. Camped in a clearing along a side trail. We found a small scrap metal pile so we started looking through that and found a pair of Subaru CV axles and control arms! Drove through Dukes/Upper Peninsula experimental forest which we'd never seen before. Near the end of the day we drove to Laughing Whitefish falls to do the little hike. Just before we got there we started getting splashed with water from the rear floor of the Outback. About a square foot of sheet metal had almost torn off. I was able to tuck it back up and safety wire it. Falls was pretty cool, one of the best in the UP. We took a whooped out railroad grade to the Forest Lake campground. Along the way we saw another scrap metal pile so we grabbed a piece of roofing material for the floor. Near the end of the whoops was a big one A hit at about 45mph that launched the car in the air and we cleared the next four or five whoops. At camp A cut the roofing material to fit and screwed it to the floor. The next day we hit some more trails and stunt areas and saw a couple snapping turtles on the way to the bluff campsite. The slightly better site was taken so we camped at the one slightly to the west. Rained a little and was super buggy but the view was great as always and had a good nights sleep. Monday morning we did a little trail riding on the way home. Slammo found a long trail along a river on the map so we followed that past where it ended on the map and just kept getting narrower and rougher and we eventually turned around. On that trail the Outback started running a little hot even with the fans on. We stopped and didn't hear them running, then the next time we stopped one of them was running and the temps were solid the rest of the day. Went to the opposite end of the trail we couldn't get to the end of from the between the lakes campsite and every option we could find had very long stretches of standing water. Went down and back up the rutted out climb to a river. Got to the campsite between the lakes and then started heading home. Hit a couple more good jumps. Drove home with no other issues. Outback had a very worn/beat inner tie rod, which seemed fine right before the trip. It's like one of the races for the ball joint got pressed in/out. Had to replace one of the fan fuses. Z had a leak in his LR tire that he had to plug a few times. His cam codes eventually went away but then he started getting an O2/cat code. No major problems, weather was decent, covered a lot of miles. Struts are almost ready for my Impreza, will probably start lifting that and installing suspension soon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted June 20, 2022 Author Share Posted June 20, 2022 (edited) Went up to the UP last weekend. Based on a previous trip I didn't think there were a lot of trails in the Keweenaw but we decided to check it out. I wanted to try a trail that supposedly went north from Bond Falls and A said he'd never seen the falls so we did that hike. Tried one trail that was fairly short and dead ended at a large dilapitated cabin owned by the US gov't right along a river. Hit the highway for a while and headed to the start of the Bill Nichols trail. Saw “Adventure Mountain” on the map and Z thought we should check it out. Took one dead end trail along some houses and then took another one that went to an awesome overlook with a great view of Mass City. Checked out the Adventure mine entrance (looked like copper and ice on the rocks) and some other mining ruins and a Pinzgauer parked by the visitor center. Hit the Bill Nichols trail and walked the Firesteel trestles and took some pictures before driving over them. Stayed at a state park along the trail not too far north of there. Tons of mosquitos but the people weren't super noisy and it was nice to have a bathroom with running water. Drove through Houghton and Hancock and went to the Quincy mine. Got there around 10AM and their next tour wasn't until 1:30PM so we figured we'd check out Gay beach in the meantime. On the way we hiked to Hungarian falls. Fairly short hike, less than a mile, uphill on the way there. Two big falls, smaller one much easier to see than the larger one. Got to Gay and went out on the tailings (crushed rock byproduct of copper mining, almost as fine as sand). 23 million tons of mine tailings were dumped and less than 3 million are still there on the beach. They're reclaiming them to use as an aggregate in cement. The tailings are mostly soft and generally required full throttle in first or second gear. Looped around a bit and Forester was starting to run a little hot so we stopped by the trees where the ground is firmer and aired down. Did a little better with 20psi, eventually we wound up at the north end of the beach where there's pilings for an old pier. I decided to try driving up a steep but short hill/bank up to the level road. I asked A and he thought we should go for it. Just as we crested the top at an angle I backed off and we felt the ground fall out from under us. The car rolled on to the driver's side but fortunately stopped there. A said he saw the mirror fold in, shatter, then shatter the driver's window. We'd driven off a ~30” tall wall. First step was securing the car so it didn't roll farther. Took us about an hour and a half to get the car away from the wall and back on the tires. Here we're swinging the rear of the car away from the wall. Pushed on the car by hand and pulled with the Forester to roll it back down. We'd debeaded the LR tire and lost some fuel. We ate some PB&Js to let the fluids drain back where they're supposed to be. Got a little knocking when I first fired it up and shut it off. I remembered I've heard EZ30s make that noise before after major service (head gasket replacement) so I just cranked it for a minute or so and then started it up. No more knocking noises, seemed to run smooth. On the way out of town we fumigated the place but after a mile or so it cleared up, probably some oil drained past the rings into the exhaust and/or intake. Not too many fumes or rain inside the car with all the windows down so we did that and just put a tarp over the car when we parked for any significant duration. Got back to Quincy with about five minutes to spare before the tour started. Tour was great, biggest steam hoist/winch in the world, took about two hours. Tour was a couple hours long and definitely worth it. https://www.flickr.com/photos/photostoartbymike/33489192096 http://www.vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=11161 Headed up 41 and along the north shore of Keweenaw. Drove some trails north of Cliff drive. Drove to the overlook on Brockway Mountain, maybe the best view in the UP. Got some beer and relish in Copper Harbor and continued up the Mandan loop. On the way to the rocket range we saw four Subarus on the trail, and it was a fairly rough dirt road with good sized water holes. Got to rocket range (small launchpad for rockets in the 60s, hasn't been used since 1971). It was getting late so we just camped there. LR seemed to have some positive camber so we adjusted it for max negative camber. Mosquito infested but otherwise a cool place to camp. Did more of the Mandan loop on Sunday wandering around on various side trails. At one point we did a couple narrow/overgrown trails that we eventually turned around and drove back out of, one of them seemed like we probably could have made it through to the end. Hit a sandy stunt area with some cool hill climbs. I looped one big one a couple times and then asked A if he wanted to ride along. First time I got stuck just before the peak and was able to back down. Second time I got stuck just past the peak and couldn't get unstuck. I was barely able to get out the driver's window. Hooked a couple of our longest straps together and Z pulled me down in the Forester. Eventually got back up by Cliff drive and did a bunch more trails there including at least one excellent trail to a clifftop view/campsite. Wound up driving to both ends of a road flooded by a beaver pond. Fairly steep climb with big rocks going up from that. Found some other mine ruins and the snow thermometer (27 feet last winter). Went back to Gay and bombed around some more on the tailings. We drove up and down the bank I'd driven over and one time A thought they were too close to the edge and started having flashbacks of our rollover. Didn't see the stamping presses I thought I'd seen there before but checked out some of the other ruins. Saw a wood(?) turtle crossing the road. Center diff was locked up by the end of the day and we weren't able to easily get it unlocked. Radar showed rain increasing all morning Monday so we packed up fairly early and headed south. Stopped at Ed's on the way and luckily they had a door and it wasn't raining too hard. Took us maybe twenty minutes to swap the doors. Ride home was fairly uneventful, rainy but good to have all the windows back in the Outback. Noisy and drafty without the door card, we hadn't bothered to swap that over. We moved some things around in the cars in Milwaukee and split up from there. About fifty miles from home the RR wheel bearing started to make noises and feel increasingly unstable. Got off the interstate and took back roads to A's mom's house. He had talked to his grandpa about meeting us there with a trailer but it didn't seem too bad at 40-50mph so I told him I'd just limp it home. I did make it home but it was getting increasingly smoky. Tire pressure sensor was beeping, peaked at 196F. Hub and CV temps exceeded 600F by the time I measured them. Overall a good trip, saw a lot of new trails and sights and came home with some stories. Definitely a good thing we had two low range cars although most of what you couldn't do with low range was at the end of a climb to a campsite/overlook and wasn't a long walk. I do have a complete spare RR knuckle, I think I'm going to just swap the whole thing out. Need to do that, do a little more painting on the door, properly patch the floor, and start working on the Impreza. Edited June 20, 2022 by pontoontodd 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted July 13, 2022 Author Share Posted July 13, 2022 (edited) Finally put a real patch on the hole in the floor of the black Outback out of .040" thick 4130. The hole was much smaller than this but this is how far out I had to go to weld to decent sheet metal. Started with the piece of roofing material as a template and trimmed and hammered from there. I was surprised how well this repair went. I figured if I got 50% attachment I'd be happy but I'd say it's closer to 90%. Primered it, painted black too but haven't taken pictures of that. Figure it will at least delay the rusting process, but either way should outlast the rest of the car. I kept thinking I'm going to be parting this thing out soon but at this point I think what will total it will be some kind of wiring malfunction or fire. So I think slammo is right, probably just keep patching things up as needed until that happens. While I did this, B and Z swapped out the door lock cylinder, rear door, put on folding mirrors that slammo sent me and a few other things. I really do need to get started on the billet rear knuckles soon and the Impreza. Edited July 13, 2022 by pontoontodd 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slammo Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 On 6/20/2022 at 11:08 AM, pontoontodd said: Tire pressure sensor was beeping, peaked at 196F. Hub and CV temps exceeded 600F by the time I measured them. I'd guess most of that heat was from brake drag owing to the loose bearing, not the bearing itself. Might not be a bad idea to flush the brake system, or at least bleed it. I stopped getting update emails for this thread a while ago so I haven't been checking in as often. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted August 28, 2022 Author Share Posted August 28, 2022 On 8/9/2022 at 4:05 PM, slammo said: I'd guess most of that heat was from brake drag owing to the loose bearing, not the bearing itself. Might not be a bad idea to flush the brake system, or at least bleed it. I stopped getting update emails for this thread a while ago so I haven't been checking in as often. I wound up replacing that caliper and bled it, good call. I also haven't been getting any update emails for USMB threads. B and Z and I went to Minnesota for a weekend a couple weeks ago. Sort of on the way we did the last portion (~100 miles?) of the Trans Wisconsin Adventure Trail. Definitely less paved than the southern portion I did years ago but only the northernmost 10-20 miles were at all challenging and had side trails. We did hike to Morgan Falls which is fairly unique. One lookout tower was at a sandy hilltop with a lot of narrow trails going down the hill in various directions but they all looked fairly steep so we decided not to try them. Nothing else around there I know about or have seen for full size off roading so it's like a tiny island probably not worth visiting again. We headed to Duluth and then went north to public land. After a while we starting hitting some moderately challenging trails and lots of dirt and gravel roads. We eventually got to Boundary Waters, Z and I had never been there and have always wanted to see it. We did a little hiking and only saw a tiny portion of it but it's obvious why it's an outdoorsman's dream. Tons of lakes, some portaging trails, and no wheeled traffic allowed. We knew Minnesota is the land of 10,000 lakes but I always thought there were a lot of lakes in northern WI and MI. In northern MN there are lakes everywhere, it's probably hard to go a mile or two without seeing one. There were also mosquitos everywhere, more than the UP if anything. The maps seemed much more accurate than the UP, which was mostly good. We were on a few very overgrown trails that probably mainly get used by snowmobiles that went for miles but did eventually go through, and did a few long loops of fairly rocky trails. This is B's Forester going through a hole viewed out the windshield of my car. The main obstacles that caused us to turn around were badly washed out roads. Probably not by coincidence beavers appeared to have dammed up the culverts. One seemed like with a lot of effort we could have gone over it but it was getting late so we just camped nearby. Not as many side trails as the UP in general. We did find quite a few stunt areas and got stuck in at least one. On the way back we stopped in Twin Harbors, had PB&Js, checked out the ore docks, old trains, etc. Overall seemed like a decent area for trail riding but almost twice as far from home as the UP. Afterwards the 6MT low range was making noise while coasting. B and I removed and inspected it. Not much more wear than the last time it was out. Replaced a couple parts while it was out of the car and got it back in. Still have to reconnect shifters, driveshaft, and exhaust and test it out but hopefully good for a while. Wanted to look at it before putting one in my Impreza too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 Great update Todd and as always a good spread of pics too. The falls shown right up the top of this post was really interesting the way the water cut across the rock like that! The centre diff noise - sure it’s not a bearing in the gearbox? It’s good to hear the centre diff is wearing ok, nothing wearing faster than expected? Cheers Bennie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted September 3, 2022 Author Share Posted September 3, 2022 On 8/29/2022 at 7:20 AM, el_freddo said: Great update Todd and as always a good spread of pics too. The falls shown right up the top of this post was really interesting the way the water cut across the rock like that! The centre diff noise - sure it’s not a bearing in the gearbox? It’s good to hear the centre diff is wearing ok, nothing wearing faster than expected? Cheers Bennie Yeah that waterfall/stream was fairly unusual. Main issue with the center diff low range is I used helical planetaries out of an automatic. Thought it would be cheaper and easier but since we're modifying the gears we are using and remaking some of the other ones, it'd probably be just as cheap to make them straight cut from scratch. I think most of the wear we're seeing is because the helical cut produces some thrust loads on various parts. Biggest issue is the ring gear for the actual differential part is held into the lock or unlock position only by the shift fork. It occasionally locks itself. I originally made the forks out of bronze. Pretty sure the noise was the fork being worn enough that it was barely keeping the ring gear in the unlock position. I'd made some steel forks in the meantime so we swapped one of those in this time. Noise went away, or is at least very faint now, everything else seems good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted September 15, 2022 Author Share Posted September 15, 2022 Random factoid, 98-02 Forester steering shaft appears to be interchangeable with 96-99 Outback. Wanted one without the coupler for my Impreza. Hopefully the Outback one works but worst case it will be easier to cut and weld. I'm not a fan of the rubber coupler but it seems like the ujoints always fail well before it gets sloppy. Forester on top, Outback on bottom. Seven Subarus at my place. Got the Outback and blue Forester all ready to go for our next trip out west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted October 22, 2022 Author Share Posted October 22, 2022 We took my black 99 Outback and B's blue Forester out west the first week of October. Plan was to go back to Flaming Gorge and Dinosaur NM and slammo was going to lead us down part of the Rimrocker trail, a 140 mile route from Montrose, CO to Moab, UT. Also took the Massey book for UT and the gpx of those trails. They're generally fairly easy trails but it's nice to know that at least when the book was written 20 years ago they went through legally. At some point the Outback started sputtering like it was running out of fuel. Coasted off on the nearest exit and then they towed me behind a gas station and we started troubleshooting. At first it seemed like there was poor fuel flow to the engine. Tried switching gas hoses so it was pumping directly from the main tank to the engine bypassing the surge tank and still weak. Tried a bunch of things including swapping in the spare fuel pump. Eventually figured out the flow out of the main tank to the surge tank was minimal. Figured there must be some debris clogging up the pickup filter sock in the tank but didn't want to disassemble that. B came up with the idea of blowing into the pickup hose to clear the debris off and that solved the problem (for a while). We stopped at a farm supply store and auto parts store the next day in Cheyenne and bought some plumbing fittings, hose, and filters. We rigged up a tee in the pickup line and a ball valve so we could easily blow out the filter which we started doing at every gas stop or when needed. Met up with slammo and his friend A Sunday afternoon at the north end of Flaming Gorge. Hit some of the longest climbs of the week driving up to and along ridgelines with excellent views. There are a good variety of trails there from easy dirt and gravel roads to fairly crazy hill climbs. The one pictured below we did not try. Haven't hit many good jumps this year so I hit an uphill jump with slammo and then A, going faster each time. Hit it a little too fast with A. Had to bend the gas pedal back and adjust it to get the proper range of motion after landing in a rut. After some good trail riding and views we camped along the river for the night. Monday morning while I was wandering near the campsite I scared up a half dozen otters who playfully swam down the river. We kept driving generally south checking out various trails and overlooks. At some point B noticed the Outback had a fairly significant coolant leak. It was coming from the short ninety degree hose to the oil cooler. I was able to add a hose clamp which slowed the leak significantly. We kept topping that off the rest of the day. I tried a climb that was fairly steep but would have been alright if it hadn't been for the rock shelf/step near the top. Got some wheelspin there and broke the LR axle. Snapped the bar shaft at the inboard and the outer stub was also badly cracked. We swapped that out and took the bypass around the climb. We headed over to Massey trail #25 Brown's Park Trail and headed south on that to find a place to camp. We were disappointed by the swinging vehicle bridge, I think it's been upgraded since the book was written. The canyon we drove through was excellent though. We found a campsite off the southern end of the trail to spend the night. The coolant hose had started to leak pretty badly again. At night I swapped a spare hose I fortunately had. The old one was coming apart probably due to my constant oil leak in that area, the hose is only a few years old. Also replaced the LF CV axle on the Outback as the outer boot had come off. Tuesday morning we continued south. Our next stop was Dinosaur National Monument. Drove up to the quarry and checked that out since most of us hadn't seen it. Then we drove to Harper's Corner and hiked out to the end of that. Considered by some to be the best view in any national park or monument. It is an excellent view and most of the time there's no one else around. On the hike out there you can see the roads we planned on driving the rest of the day. Drove down the dugway to the bottom of the canyon and then along Yampa bench road which has a few great overlooks. Camped near there for the night. Wednesday morning we continued south along Massey trails #28 and 29 to check out some mines. The mining in this area appeared to consist of digging narrow vertical channels following seams. Some if not all of it was Gilsonite, looks similar to coal but found only in this part of the world and used to make black paint and asphalt. Our next route was the Rimrocker trail which slammo wanted us to see. That wooden structure is the Hanging Flume that transfered up to 80 million gallons of water per day through 10 miles of flume and ditch for placer mining. Camped at a site slammo had picked out during his trip there earlier this summer. Thursday morning I did a little wandering waiting for everyone else to wake up and found a few small mine shafts which we explored. Z had brought his geiger counter and found a few spicy spots. Then we continued along the rimrocker trail, checked out some other mining ruins and enjoyed the scenery. Early in the afternoon slammo bailed on us to meet with some of his friends at the Grand Canyon. Kept following rimrocker for the most part, more stereotypical mountain views and the main trail was fairly rocky – not difficult but kept our speeds down. Near the end of the route we stopped at an antenna tower with an excellent view and saw a deep narrow canyon we wanted to try to drive in. We got gas and groceries that night in Moab and headed out of town where Z found us a campsite. Friday morning we checked out the two arches next to where we camped – balcony arch and picture frame arch. We went down the trail the map showed went down into the narrow canyon. It started inconspicuously as a gap in the brush at the edge of a big gravel parking lot. We made it a ways down the trail but eventually came to a large deep pool of slowly flowing water on one branch and downhill grade with many large rocks on another branch. We climbed out on a third branch and got back to the highway to hit some other trails. Looked at the Massey trail book and decided we'd spend the next couple days looping around Arches NP. While we were driving back through Moab we bought front and rear brake pads for the Outback since we knew at least the one corner on the rear was getting thin when we did the axle and the front seemed to be making noise. Turned out to just need the rears on the corner we'd replaced the axle on. While we were at the parts store B swapped out his tire with a leaking valve stem. We got gas at a campground but they said they didn't have a spigot we could use to refill our water jugs because they were on a well and had to limit their water use. So we pulled into a couple of their tent campsites and refilled them with those spigots and left. On the way out we drove by their uncovered and unoccupied swimming pool. As we drove past the main entrance to Arches they were turning people away and dozens of cars were lined up waiting to get in. Hit Massey trail #26 Willow Flats. Lots of dispersed camping with portapotties (fee area) along the western half. Checked out the dino tracks, not the greatest but cool. Then we drove up #25 to the Eye of the Whale arch, a short hike and very cool. Went up #22 Salt Valley Road. Tried to get to tower arch but it was a fairly long hike from the easy trailhead so we decided to try to drive closer from the other end of #25. Got to the first steep rocky hillclimb where a late model Jeep and Land Cruiser were both parked and got out to walk it. Z and B thought we could do it so Z drove up it in the Outback in second gear low with surprisingly little drama. I tried it in the Forester but got wheelspin at the biggest step. Good demonstration of the locking center diff. I was able to back down about a car length and take a different line and made it to the top. The guys with the Land Cruiser got back in their car, turned around, and drove away. We never saw the Jeep guys try the climb. We kept climbing and then before we took the long descent a few people talked us out of continuing. Continued up #22 to #20 Yellow Cat trail. Checked out a few old mines. Then it was starting to get dark so we found a place to camp on one of the overlooks. There are a bunch of alcoves in this area I think it would be cool to hike to, didn't see any roads that went into the canyon. Saturday we explored some larger mines, some were blocked off, others were flooded, but we were able to get in a few. This is where Z got his highest Geiger counter readings of 20,000 counts/minute (ambient is 20-100). We took #24 and #27 and some side trails. Part of that was a fun sandy trail with lots of undulations, not quite jumps or whoops but entertaining. Went to another arch which was fairly easy to park near and climb to the top. At the western end of #27 was a view of a few of the large arches in the distance and a big smooth rock canyon with a pillar in the middle of it. This looks like it would be cool to hike to from the south and might not take too long if you could find a parking spot in Arches NP. Near the southeastern corner of #24 was one of the best views of the weekend over the Colorado river with mesas and mountains. At this point we had to head out to the highway and there were quite a few side trails so I headed northeast. We hit a few rocky grades that we didn't think were going to be time efficient routes so we headed back up #24. On the way we took a side trail that took us up a big slickrock hump. It was easy in low range but probably the biggest solid rock climb we've done. This picture is from the top, it was solid rock down to about where you can see two tracks. Took #20 out to the highway. Hit a few decent jumps on the way, the best one was a cattle guard. I got some good air in the Outback but it didn't bottom hard. At this point we had a little time buffer to get A to the airport in time but the Outback started cutting out. I had to pull off on a narrow shoulder and blowing out the pickup didn't immediately solve the issue. Then the battery started to die, still couldn't get it started with the jump pack. Z and A drove around the block in the Forester to get us, fortunately the last exit was only a few miles back. Towed us behind a gas station, left us with B's jump pack out of the Forester. Blew out the pickup again, made sure both fuel pumps were running, took the hose off the engine (post filter) and of course various pressurized gas sprayed everywhere. Hooked it back up and it started and ran fine the rest of the way home. Wondering if the fuel rail can just fill with air and popping that hose off allows it to then refill with fuel. Pressure regulators are on the top though I think so you'd think it'd be self bleeding. A made it to the airport just in time to catch his flight, if he'd taken the next tram he would have missed it. We camped at a campground along 76 at a dried up reservoir and drove the rest of the way home Sunday with no further incidents. Overall a great trip, excellent scenery, good trails, moderate mechanical difficulties. Every trip encourages me more and more to get my Impreza together, which I'm working on today. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travelvw Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 Bad@ss trip! K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted October 25, 2022 Author Share Posted October 25, 2022 (edited) Had a dented/cracked rim from the trip out west. Got that wheel swapped out and some other tire beads sealed and valve stems replaced. Before I started on the Impreza I weighed it, full tank of gas but nothing extra in it, 2917# with 57% front weight. 205/60/15 all seasons with good tread on steelies are 39# each. Worn Hankook 215/75/15 mud tire on alloy wheel 47# each, so that'll be 32# + added from wheels and tires. Just hoping to keep it under 4000# with the EZ36, 6MT, R180, long travel, fully loaded with two people. It'll probably be close. Took all the front suspension off the Impreza in about three hours. So nice to work on these things when they're fairly rust free. Thanks again to B for buying this green Impreza for me. I don't know if I've ever seen drum brakes look this clean. No idea if or when they were ever replaced but guaranteed they wouldn't look this good after one month on one of our cars. I did wind up cutting both long bolts, they were seized into the rear bushings. I started to round off one of the nuts on one of the rear eccentric bolts too so I welded an axle nut on it. 1 1/4" box end fits perfect, a little hammering on that and it came right off. Rear suspension has taken me three days, although only a couple hours a day. Left the knuckles on so I don't have to disconnect brake hoses and cables. Not sure how soon I'll have the billet knuckles done, maybe while this thing is still torn apart. Just planning on doing the subframe spacers and long travel first then drive it a bit. Took the RR CV axle out since the boot is torn. Edited October 25, 2022 by pontoontodd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 G’day Todd, You always have the most epic adventures, thanks for continuing to share! This last one looks like the most scenic one yet!! With the impreza build, are you ditching the rear drums for discs? Over here anything EJ had discs all round in AWD spec and rear drums only on the 2wd models. I’m looking forward to seeing this build completed. Those (very few!) over here that have dropped a H6 into an impreza love it from what I’ve heard, so it should be good at your end too! My mate with his H6 SF forester loves it and always drives it like he stole it. While you’ve got the impreza apart it could be a good idea to box the swing arm mount points to stop them moving. Old mate with the SF ripped one side of his out when he was in the middle of nowhere! Keep up the good work and all the pics! Cheers Bennie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted October 31, 2022 Author Share Posted October 31, 2022 (edited) On 10/29/2022 at 7:22 AM, el_freddo said: G’day Todd, You always have the most epic adventures, thanks for continuing to share! This last one looks like the most scenic one yet!! With the impreza build, are you ditching the rear drums for discs? Over here anything EJ had discs all round in AWD spec and rear drums only on the 2wd models. I’m looking forward to seeing this build completed. Those (very few!) over here that have dropped a H6 into an impreza love it from what I’ve heard, so it should be good at your end too! My mate with his H6 SF forester loves it and always drives it like he stole it. While you’ve got the impreza apart it could be a good idea to box the swing arm mount points to stop them moving. Old mate with the SF ripped one side of his out when he was in the middle of nowhere! Keep up the good work and all the pics! Cheers Bennie Are you getting notification emails when I post on the thread? Just wondering because slammo and I haven't been all year. Glad you enjoyed the pictures. It was a good trip. Most of the trails themselves weren't exceptional but I agree, probably the most scenic off road trip we've done. You really can't go wrong off roading in Utah. Interesting on the drums/discs. I think all the base model Foresters and Imprezas here had rear drums. And all Subarus have been AWD since 1997 in the US (except the BRZ I guess). Eventually it'll get the billet rear knuckles with big rear discs. Maybe not too eventually, I might get those made before this all goes back together. My black Outback with the EZ30 and 6MT is pretty fun, my white Outback with EZ30 is fun even with the 4EAT. Definitely looking forward to the EZ36 and 6MT in a lighter car. Are you talking about the rear trailing arm brackets? I did rip one of those out of my Outback but it was super rusty. Good point, we have run longer bolts up through the floor and welded a plate to the top on a few of these cars now. I'd really like to tie that into the strut towers and tie those together along with a spare tire mount but I think that will all have to wait. On to the long travel progress. After removing the front suspension, I disconnected the pitch stopper and unbolted the bracket that holds the AC line there. Removed the front subframe nuts and lowered it a few inches. Then I noticed the upper radiator hose seemed to have a lot of tension on it. I don't think it was holding the engine up but I slid both ends about halfway off the necks and retightened the hose clamps. Would a Forester or Outback upper hose be a little longer? Will have to post pictures later but made some 1.5" x 2" subframe spacers and bolted them in. B and I cycled the front suspension, seems like it's going to work. Front bumper cover will have to be removed. I could just trim it but it's coming off eventually anyhow. Tire is worn but really only hits the outer lip of the front fender and that's with the bumpstop removed. Couple inches of space in general between tire and wheel well. This was the main thing I was concerned about since the Impreza had smaller tires stock than the Outback and Forester, but seems to have similar wheel wells. Next step we were trying to figure out if subframe spacers were needed in the rear. We've measured about half a dozen EJ Subaru bodies now and they all seem to be the same from the strut mount to the subframe mount, front and rear. First gen Impreza, second gen Impreza (STI), second gen Legacy (Outback), first and second gen Foresters. Front measures about 15.75" (lip/flange in the picture hangs below where the subframe actually mounts). Outbacks/Foresters have ~1.25" tall cast iron subframe spacers there, Impreza has nothing. Rear of all the cars measures about 18". Only the Outback (second gen Legacy based) has subframe spacers in the rear, also about 1.25" thick. Both here at the crossmember and at either end of the diff mount (front of the rear subframe). Outback also has dogleg brackets for the front of the rear subframe and taller trailing arm brackets. Will try to remember to get side by side pictures to update. A little surprised the Foresters don't have any of those taller parts. Those subframe spacers don't really lift the car at all, they essentially lower the subframe and reduce the angles on the links and CVs. We've been running the long travel on a first and second gen Forester without any rear subframe spacers but it does limit the droop a bit and makes installing the struts more difficult. I plan on adding subframe, trans, driveshaft, etc spacers to the Impreza. The other issue we ran into was the rear top mounts. I had read it's a slightly different bolt pattern so I fixed that. Then I realized our top mounts won't fit through that hole in the Impreza body. Per B's suggestion, I dug out an old one and notched the tabs and ground down a bolt to fit so we could check other things. I think I'll wind up opening up those holes in the body and welding a triangle of 1/8" 4130 over the top to make up for it. Didn't take pictures but similar story with tire clearance in the rear. Hits the lower front corner of the wheel well and the top outer edge of the rear fender but decent clearance to most of the wheel well, so again seems similar to the Outback. Edited October 31, 2022 by pontoontodd 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 Awesome research Todd! And interesting about the strut tower measurements across the range of models, but not surprising since just about everything on the EJ platforms are interchangeable! I haven’t got email updates turned on, I think this change many years ago with a forum update. I’m not fussed, I know the threads I’m interested in - and the ones I’ve posted in have a star beside them rather than a dot Cheers Bennie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slammo Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 (edited) Nice progress! That trip was a blast, thanks for having me along. Reinforcing the strut tower tops and converting the GC to GD size is relatively common: https://rally.build/products/subaru-impreza-gc-weld-on-strut-top-reinforcement I like the principal of these being cut to shape and welded to the adjacent sheet metal, should help strengthen a little more. IIRC the center hole has to be opened up for normal GD struts too. Edited November 1, 2022 by slammo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted November 3, 2022 Author Share Posted November 3, 2022 On 11/1/2022 at 8:10 AM, slammo said: Nice progress! That trip was a blast, thanks for having me along. Reinforcing the strut tower tops and converting the GC to GD size is relatively common: https://rally.build/products/subaru-impreza-gc-weld-on-strut-top-reinforcement I like the principal of these being cut to shape and welded to the adjacent sheet metal, should help strengthen a little more. IIRC the center hole has to be opened up for normal GD struts too. Thanks, I'd buy those but they're not 4130 and don't know if they'd fit a wagon. Thanks for the other links, looks like just torching/scraping the caulk out around the top of the strut tower makes it easy to weld them in, plan on doing that. Front subframe spacer installed. "Frame rail" bends down on either end so this is as long as I could make it flat, should be better than the Subaru spacers. Going to use three bolts, the center hole is already there in the body and the subframe. Can't make the rears quite as long due to the gas tank (and filler on the passenger side). Threaded hole in the middle in the body lines up with the hole in the subframe so plan on using three bolts per side here too. Will cap the ends and sleeve the bolt holes before painting to keep them from crushing and getting full of debris. Rear at full droop now. Full bump. Need to space down the front of the rear subframe and space down the trailing arm brackets or swap them out with Outback brackets. Had the bolts backed out for mockup so the suspension wouldn't bind. Is it customary to also space down the driveshaft hanger bearing and trans crossmember? Planning on it but wasn't sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slammo Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 I've heard that you can flip the driveshaft carrier bearing upside down to compensate but I haven't tried it. Are you going to sleeve the chassis where the subframe bolts go, in addition to sleeving the spacers? Any other preventive tactics to address the infamous captive nut issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted November 4, 2022 Author Share Posted November 4, 2022 21 hours ago, slammo said: I've heard that you can flip the driveshaft carrier bearing upside down to compensate but I haven't tried it. Are you going to sleeve the chassis where the subframe bolts go, in addition to sleeving the spacers? Any other preventive tactics to address the infamous captive nut issues? Will have to look at flipping the carrier bearing, that'd be easy. Haven't removed the heat shield yet. The body is already sleeved for the standard front subframe bolts/studs (I don't think my Outback was stock). The middle one isn't though, yes I plan on sleeving that. I think all the captive nut issues we've ever had have been on my rusty old 99 Outback. That said, the rear trailing arm mounts should probably be reinforced. On a couple other cars we've sleeved the body and added a thicker plate on the top of the floor and run longer bolts through which seems to last. Ideally I'd make a rear roll hoop attached to the strut tops. Tie that down and forward to the top of the trailing arm mounts (and somehow keep the rear seat). Tie it down and rearward to the top of the "frame rails" and mount the spare tire to one side. But that might have to wait a while. Gotta focus on the long travel. Then EZ36 and 6MT/R180. Then front bumper and skidplates. Not to mention billet rear knuckles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 Why the focus on the bullet rear knuckles? Trying to reduce unsprung weight to help compensate for the heavier tyres? If you’re concerned with any of the captive nuts I’d be welding a flat bar of steel over them (with matching holes to the captive nuts of course!) to help distribute any loading further out from around the nuts. It’s worked well on my L series where we added this to the firewall captive nuts and a couple on the rear subframe mounts too. Stitch welding is worth the effort too. An old mate of mine said to just weld the entire section instead of doing the stitch method. His theory was if we’re to crack you’re doing someone very wrong as the whole weld “method” would be stronger than stitch welding. I already did the stitch welding so didn’t bother going back to “fix” it up. I’d love to have done the windscreen seams too but I wasn’t busting that out at that point in time so it remains untouched atm. Cheers Bennie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 On 11/1/2022 at 8:10 AM, slammo said: Reinforcing the strut tower tops and converting the GC to GD size is relatively common: https://rally.build/products/subaru-impreza-gc-weld-on-strut-top-reinforcement I like the principal of these being cut to shape and welded to the adjacent sheet metal, should help strengthen a little more. This is SOP when building a rally car. THICK steel plate on the top of all 4 struts, and tied into the cage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travelvw Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 Nice progress!! Pretty clear from these pics that anything over 215/75R15 is going to require more lift and/or a lot of cutting, particularly in the rear. I also have slightly decreased backspacing in my wheels to clear the strut perch for 235's (so I hope), which will push the tires out. I would rather not cut into the top of the fenders... will you measure how far under the rear fender lip, the top of the tire tread is? Looks like 1 1/4" or so, which means I'll need at least 2" more lift. I realize first gen is different than bugeye/hawkeye, but it would be a decent reference point. K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted November 7, 2022 Author Share Posted November 7, 2022 (edited) On 11/5/2022 at 8:06 AM, el_freddo said: Why the focus on the bullet rear knuckles? Trying to reduce unsprung weight to help compensate for the heavier tyres? If you’re concerned with any of the captive nuts I’d be welding a flat bar of steel over them (with matching holes to the captive nuts of course!) to help distribute any loading further out from around the nuts. It’s worked well on my L series where we added this to the firewall captive nuts and a couple on the rear subframe mounts too. Stitch welding is worth the effort too. An old mate of mine said to just weld the entire section instead of doing the stitch method. His theory was if we’re to crack you’re doing someone very wrong as the whole weld “method” would be stronger than stitch welding. I already did the stitch welding so didn’t bother going back to “fix” it up. I’d love to have done the windscreen seams too but I wasn’t busting that out at that point in time so it remains untouched atm. Cheers Bennie No the billet knuckles will certainly be heavier. Probably been a bit since I posted about those but the advantages should be: bolt on wheel bearings, same as 05-15(?) Legacy/Outback front - hopefully more durable and much easier to replace in the field this will allow us to use front axles in the rear also (almost done making rear diff stub adapters for both R160 and R180 to use female front axles) - stronger, more plunge and angle capacity, and will allow us to carry one spare axle instead of two or three same rotors as front for more rear braking power which should help backing down loose hills and improve steering brake action, also the stock mini drum parking brakes have never impressed me, hopefully these work better captive nuts and stitch welding - that'd be great given unlimited time but honestly we haven't had any problems with the bodies of our rust free Subarus coming apart yet. Guess we'll find out. On 11/5/2022 at 9:54 AM, Numbchux said: This is SOP when building a rally car. THICK steel plate on the top of all 4 struts, and tied into the cage. See above and below but again haven't blown the _tops_ of the strut towers out on any of these cars, even my black Outback which has been through many desert races now. We've hit some things HARD in that car but maybe not as many times as a stage rally car does in years of use. Haven't blown out any strut towers on rust free Subarus. I'm guessing stage rally cars have much stiffer suspension than our cars, that's gotta be a lot harder on the bodies. You can honestly barely feel landing off jumps in these cars when the jump and suspension are set up right. On 11/5/2022 at 1:12 PM, travelvw said: Nice progress!! Pretty clear from these pics that anything over 215/75R15 is going to require more lift and/or a lot of cutting, particularly in the rear. I also have slightly decreased backspacing in my wheels to clear the strut perch for 235's (so I hope), which will push the tires out. I would rather not cut into the top of the fenders... will you measure how far under the rear fender lip, the top of the tire tread is? Looks like 1 1/4" or so, which means I'll need at least 2" more lift. I realize first gen is different than bugeye/hawkeye, but it would be a decent reference point. K Yeah, front fenders shouldn't be too bad for you to just bend out. Rear will definitely be a project for you. If it was anyone else I'd really try to discourage you from going down that path since it's not just cutting out the fenders, you're really cutting into the structure after the first inch or so and will have big gaps to patch back together so they seal and don't come apart. On both ends if it wasn't for the fender lips just eyeballing I'd say we have another 2"+ of clearance to the wheel wells at least in most areas. Front of the rear wheel wells will probably be another project for you unless you make longer trailing arms. The 215/75/15s already rub badly there near full droop and that's with worn tires. Some hammering will probably solve my problem but again you might have to cut into some structure to make yours fit. On with the Impreza build: Some of this is Subaru lifting 101 but might as well include it. Below are rear subframe brackets (in front of trailing arms). Near is Impreza/Legacy/Forester, far is Outback. Left is Outback, right is standard washer for the top of the rear subframe in the same spot. Those stock spacers are solid steel and kinda heavy (3/4#) and also fairly small diameter. I have bent one of the long bolts that go up through those into the body before. Probably bent the body, hopefully this larger diameter spacer helps with that. Will probably make some kind of better bracket too. Aluminum spacers only weigh 1/2# and are almost twice the diameter at the base. B made up 1.5" tall spacers for the trailing arms and auto trans. Told him to just make them simple since they hopefully won't be in long. Plates in lower right will go under front subframe, I made those many months ago. B measured some options including flipping the hanger bearing and making 1.5" tall spacers for it was the best option to keep the driveshaft sections and trans the most parallel. Next up had to modify the strut towers to fit the later style rear strut tops. Added hole, slotted others, opened up center hole, cleaned out caulk and paint for welding. Made 1/8" 4130 plates to weld on. Should have bought some to try. I think most people cut these back farther so they also weld to the stock strut tower cap but these are at least somewhat burned into that, also seemed redundant since it's mostly in compression. Edited November 7, 2022 by pontoontodd 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travelvw Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 (edited) Love the aluminum spacers. I'm clarifying my original question: I did say top of the fenders, but I did not mean to imply the top of the fender well, but the perimeter of the fender lip. You have 1.5" subframe spacers to fit your suspension with 215/75R15 on factory wheels, while staying just inside the fenders (a perfect fit). I will be running 235/75R15 with my custom wheel offset, which would put the tire tread well up into the fender lips with just 1.5" spacers. I do not want to cut into the fenders, if possible (especially in the rear, which will open up a body cavity I would otherwise have to stitch back together). So, I am asking how far past the rear fender lip your tire tread is at full bump (looks like 1.25" to 1.5")? With that reference, I will have an idea of what size spacers I need to make to clear the rear fender lip with my tires. It'll be something like 3"-4" subframe and 1.5"-2.5" for the strut tops. This might be a useful reference for Slammo too, even if he chooses to cut. Text me if you need further clarification. Thanks, K Edited November 11, 2022 by travelvw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted November 11, 2022 Author Share Posted November 11, 2022 On 11/10/2022 at 8:12 AM, travelvw said: Love the aluminum spacers. I'm clarifying my original question: I did say top of the fenders, but I did not mean to imply the top of the fender well, but the perimeter of the fender lip. You have 1.5" subframe spacers to fit your suspension with 215/75R15 on factory wheels, while staying just inside the fenders (a perfect fit). I will be running 235/75R15 with my custom wheel offset, which would put the tire tread well up into the fender lips with just 1.5" spacers. I do not want to cut into the fenders, if possible (especially in the rear, which will open up a body cavity I would otherwise have to stitch back together). So, I am asking how far past the rear fender lip your tire tread is at full bump (looks like 1.25" to 1.5")? With that reference, I will have an idea of what size spacers I need to make to clear the rear fender lip with my tires. It'll be something like 3"-4" subframe and 1.5"-2.5" for the strut tops. This might be a useful reference for Slammo too, even if he chooses to cut. Text me if you need further clarification. Thanks, K Portals would solve all of these problems... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slammo Posted November 12, 2022 Share Posted November 12, 2022 On 11/2/2022 at 8:08 PM, pontoontodd said: [Rear] Threaded hole in the middle in the body lines up with the hole in the subframe so plan on using three bolts per side here too. I would skip the center bolt for the rear subframe unless you plan on adding a bushing there. Several companies (Whiteline, Kartboy, Torque Solutions) sell what they call "lockdown bolts" that go here, with the premise of improving handling. I don't think it's a good idea for off road - I'd want to retain some cushion for hard impacts. 12 hours ago, pontoontodd said: Portals would solve all of these problems... Great idea, when can you make the first set 😉 On 11/7/2022 at 12:34 PM, pontoontodd said: I think most people cut these back farther so they also weld to the stock strut tower cap but these are at least somewhat burned into that, also seemed redundant since it's mostly in compression. I'd at least weld the inner perimeter of that opening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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