Lifter noise?

[thesmith]

So my '88 GL EA82 is ticking, but what puzzles me is that this car has had most of the usual fixes done to it in the last ~15k miles and it still ticks.

I bought the car with 83k original miles on it (I was stoked!) and had the engine overhauled- new head gaskets, main seal, valve cover gaskets, oil pan gasket, rebuilt oil pump, timing belts, etc. 

 

From what I gather the lifter noise is usually due to a lack of oil pressure- but this car seems to push plenty of pressure, and I change the oil every 3k religiously with GTX synthetic blend 10w30 and Mobil1 filters. So what could be going on here? (I tried 10w40 on the last oil change, still the same tick.)

 

I just put in new spark plugs, wires, disty cap and rotor, and fuel filter, and still the tick persists. It isn't a catastrophic, engine destroying knock from what I can tell, but it doesn't exactly sound healthy.

 

I do have plans to EJ this car in the future, but I'd like to keep this engine running until I can devote the time and money to do it right.

 

Do I need to replace or adjust the lifters, and if so, how should I go about this? I'm new to working on cars but the ea82 seems a fairly accessible platform.

 

 

[MR_Loyale]

Have the hla's been worked on? You might want to consider sending them to mizpah and getting them reconditioned. I think there is a nylon or other non-metal bit in the hla's that wear and is what mizpah replaces. Even though the engine has low miles, non-metal parts wear over time and get brittle.

 

http://www.mizpahprecision.com/pricing.htm

 

I have used Marvels mystery oil in the past and it helped a little bit. Or you can just turn up the stereo. 

[scoobiedubie]

You first determine which side it ticks on. Then you take off the camshaft tower cover for that side. You can feel inside for soft lifters. You may need to rotate the crank by hand with a 22mm socket on the front fanbelt pulley that attaches to the crankshaft. Once you determine which one is soft, you replace it with a new one or you may find one at an auto recycler. Unfortunately, putting the camtower back on to make the lifters as quiet as possible, is what separates the men from the boys. That is the subject of another thread.

[idosubaru]

you haven't done the most common fix for this issue.  

 

replace the oil pump.  that has worked on every single ticking EA/ER engine i've ever worked on, except one.

what is odd to me - is that in no case has the oil pump ever shown any signs of wear or issues.  so i'm not sure what causes them to perform this way, i only know that it works.  that has been the experience of many others on this forum as well.

 

the only one where HLA's were the issue had been run for thousands of miles with a blown headgasket and two HLA's were completely seized due to severe heating.  i don't consider that "normal".

 

HLA's, oil supply, etc could be the culprit but until you replace the oil pump i'd consider those unlikely.

[thesmith]

Great, thanks for the input folks. I'll see about that oil pump and if that hasn't taken care of it I'll check out the HLAs.

[MR_Loyale]

I have heard the thing is not the oil pump but the Mickey Mouse gasket that gets compressed over time and allows the oil to get aerated.

[idosubaru]

Read this:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/136547-ea82-er27-ticking-tod-hydraulic-valve-lash-hla-noise-diagnose-and-repair/

 

I have heard the thing is not the oil pump but the Mickey Mouse gasket that gets compressed over time and allows the oil to get aerated.

 

That's not true.  His is a good example, he already replaced the gaskets so that's an unlikely next step for him.

Read the write up above and reread post #4 of this thread.

That thought is probably propagated largely by economics, gasket is probably mostly talked about because it's cheap and a lot of people don't want to buy a pump. At least that has been my personal experience, LOL!!

Car would need to be abused and/or severely overheated for HLA's to be suspect (or many miles but he doesn't have that).  Caked up oil in PCV, internal valve covers, oil filler, excessively dirty low mileage oil changes, melted timing belt covers, new head gaskets, radiator, cooling system work done in the past - may suggest prior overheating and/or abuse that would compromise HLA's.  But that would be an anomaly - normally it's just the pump.

[ruparts]

hi,

  i just want to throw this in , because it happens fairly often but not too many folks realize it.   the oil feed passage in the cam carriers have a small restrictor plug oriface pressed in the passage, and , IT WILL TRAP , debris, old silicone chunks, gasket material, etc, etc,,  in the oil passage and restrict flow to the lifter galley.  i have found this to be the problem in several cases and there are several threads ( some with pics ) on here explaining the problem..  others have also found this to be their problem,, especially if the ticking is intermittant or only some of the time.  bottom line to this is,,  the  "trap passage"  is in the cam carrier , it's that  short ( aprox 1")  run between the cam journal and that brass restrictor plug,   you have to slip the cam out of the carrier to clear it! 

Edited March 29, 2014 by ruparts

[MR_Loyale]

Read this:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/136547-ea82-er27-ticking-tod-hydraulic-valve-lash-hla-noise-diagnose-and-repair/

 

 

That's not true.  His is a good example, he already replaced the gaskets so that's an unlikely next step for him.

Read the write up above and reread post #4 of this thread.

That thought is probably propagated largely by economics, gasket is probably mostly talked about because it's cheap and a lot of people don't want to buy a pump. At least that has been my personal experience, LOL!!

 

 

Car would need to be abused and/or severely overheated for HLA's to be suspect (or many miles but he doesn't have that).  Caked up oil in PCV, internal valve covers, oil filler, excessively dirty low mileage oil changes, melted timing belt covers, new head gaskets, radiator, cooling system work done in the past - may suggest prior overheating and/or abuse that would compromise HLA's.  But that would be an anomaly - normally it's just the pump.

 

I do agree it usually is economics that causes the cheapest solutions to be tried first.  I must have missed that he already did the mickey mouse gasket. As for the oil pump, the OP did say he had a rebuilt one put in. Should he go with a brand new Subaru oil pump?

 

Personally I had TOD in 2006 and when I did the timing belts I replaced the oil pump with a genuine Subaru one bought from the dealer service department. If I am getting my knuckles dirty and doing all that work to get there, I am not going cheap sh*t to save a few bucks, but that's just me. That was 40,000 miles ago.

 

 

Now I am at 40K miles on the new Subaru oil pump and TOD has returned.  Not super bad but I want to deal with it when I do my next timing belt job.   They rattle upon acceleration too.

 Engine wasn't overheated, oil wasn't caked last time I had the engine out and covers off, and the car is definitely not abused as anyone here who has seen it can attest. I am the original owner and put every one of the 157K miles it has.

 

The original HLA's are however, over 20 years old. So are you telling me to not get them rebuilt at Mizpah and instead buy another new oil pump to get rid of my TOD? What should I try for my TOD?

Edited March 29, 2014 by MR_Loyale

[MR_Loyale]

hi,

  i just want to throw this in , because it happens fairly often but not too many folks realize it.   the oil feed passage in the cam carriers have a small restrictor plug oriface pressed in the passage, and , IT WILL TRAP , debris, old silicone chunks, gasket material, etc, etc,,  in the oil passage and restrict flow to the lifter galley.  i have found this to be the problem in several cases and there are several threads ( some with pics ) on here explaining the problem..  others have also found this to be their problem,, especially if the ticking is intermittant or only some of the time.  bottom line to this is,,  the  "trap passage"  is in the cam carrier , it's that  short ( aprox 1")  run between the cam journal and that brass restrictor plug,   you have to slip the cam out of the carrier to clear it! 

 

That is a good suggestion. I will check it when I pull my engine next month. Any pics?

[coxy]

The Oil pump issue is they actually suck air in through the seal behind the Crank Pulley and that also aerates the oil so check and replace the crank front seal every time you do timing belts.This type of issue is obvious when you have the TOD and it goes away after a short time running.

 

When you find wear on front pulleys that will allow air leaks or conversely oil leaks you can either use a speedy sleeve to repair or pop the spring out of the new seal (try first to work out how it works with the spring of an old seal) and unscrew the ends then cut the female end (Flat) to shorten the spring up and apply more tension to the seal lip.

Usually you need to shorten these springs by about 2~3 mm, You will find one end of the spring is tapered to screw into the other end which has a flat cut finish.

Hold the seal spring up to a light and slightly pull it apart and you will see where the join is then simply twist the two halves of the spring to unscrew it.

 

This method works in all kinds of places where there is wear where the seal runs on a collar to restore tension on the seal lip that is now trying to seal on a smaller diameter due to wear on the collar

Edited March 30, 2014 by coxy