What is going on with my head gaskets?

[Ashtonlg]

I have a 2002 Subaru Forester that I bought in January 2014. It had records of a head job done in 2011 - the head gaskets were replaced as well as the heads resurfaced at a machine shop (this was at 94,000 mi), In February (at 130,000 mi) the car began to overheat. I pulled over and waited 15 minutes, then started it up. It was running cool, so I drove it to the nearest advance auto. I smelled exhaust in the coolant and saw bubbles in it, so I bought Blue Devil and followed the instructions exactly. I even drained and replaced the coolant first. I have been using a conditioner as well. In April, 3 months after the Blue Devil, the car overheated again. When the car overheats, the heat inside the cab turns cool. When we stopped, I smelled the bubbles in the coolant and it smelled like exhaust. I am thinking that there is an internal leak again. It seems I need a head job again. Here are my questions:

1. Should I try to replace any of the following first? - radiator cap? thermostat? (with Subaru thermostat - since the others have copper), de-clog the radiator? retorquing the head bolts?

2. Should I try the blue devil again? (I would really like to put off the cost of the head job for 1-2 weeks until I can get the $ together)

3. If I need the head gasket job done, is it a bad idea to try to do it myself? (Get the heads resurfaced at a machine shop then do it myself?)

4. If I need to get this done, even at a shop, why did it happen again (2011 and 2014) and how can I prevent it from happening again in the future? Is it worth putting $2k into if it may just happen again? 

Thanks for your help in advance - this is a tricky one!

P.S. - I really want to keep the car - other than the heads it is in AWESOME shape for a 2002. 

Ash

[Gloyale]

Don't blue devil it....especially not a second time........heater core and radiator can become clogged from those products.

 

Do you know what brand of headgasket was used?

 

And do you know for sure that the machine work was done? By a good shop?

 

IDK, I would say redo the headgaskets with genuine subaru HGs.  Replace all coolant hoses and clamps and do your timing belt and water pump too since it's out.  Might want a new radiator too.  I know the salted roads out there eat cars up.

 

Or you could gamble on a used engine.....It's possible that would be cheaper, and the one you have may be trashed from overheating....hard to say why it would fail after on;y 3 years again......other than cheap gasket/poor quality work.

[Ashtonlg]

Thx for your input. I have the phone number of the shop that did it - so I can find out what kinds of products they used. It says machine shop/head resurfaced on the receipt i have from 2011. I don't know much about the shop at all. I called to see if they would warranty the job for me and they declined - their policy is 12 months. They seemed nice about it and wanted to give me a discount to fix it, but I bought the car in Georgia so going to them would be impossible anyway. A lot of people have told me that this could have been caused again by overheating, as the heads are aluminum and react badly to that - but the car hasn't overheated except as a symptom of the heads going bad! I am confused how overheating can be the cause and the effect. Also, when I get it done this time - I will make sure I get it done right. Spending that much money, I wouldnt want to skimp.

[idosubaru]

no point in using the Blue Devil again.

 

they probably installed low grade gaskets, this engine has headgsaket issues and only certain head gaskets should be used.  Georgia is a miniscule Subaru market where mechanics don't have much experience with them.

 

it's basically a roll of the dice. we have no idea how many heating episodes it's seen, how bad they were, or what it did to the oil/bearings in the lower end.  if you feel like you didn't drive it in the red too much, then it's more than likely a good fit to fix it.

 

use Subaru headgaskets and have them resurfaced.

 

it's a large job for a first timer, but no special tools if you can keep track of lots of parts and have ambition to get it done.

you can even do them in the vehicle rather easily if you simple jack the engine up a few inches (unbolt 2 lower engine mount nuts and the top pitch stopper).

 

i wouldn't try to be Sherlock Holmes here - but if the engine overheated for some other reason (low on coolant) - then the high heat loads could of caused the head gasket to fail - and now it's causing the overheating.  it didn't cause the initial overheating, but it did cause the following overheating.    but it's equally likely they just failed, particularly if they were low grade gaskets.

Edited April 14, 2014 by grossgary

[Ashtonlg]

Thanks for the input. Is there an easy way to check and see if Blue Devil is clogging my system? I heard to flush it out is a hard process since it cant be exposed to air. 

[Ashtonlg]

P.S. - Another question - is it possible I shouldnt get this fixed at all? I was just talking to a guy from one of the repair shops around here and he said at 130,000 miles the job could damage my engine and he wouldnt want to be responsible for that so he wouldnt want to do the job. Just wondering if anyone has had experience with something like this.

[idosubaru]

How often and how long was it overheated?

 

In general - if the engine wasn't overheated badly - fixing it is fine and not a big deal. It's a routine job done in enormous quantities every day.  No big deal. 

 

That being said, there is reason to be concerned. The engine could have significant issues down the line - probably a low chance of happening.  For someone in certain situations (a very busy shop, person, etc) I could see the hesitation in doing work on something unknown.  They have no idea how badly the engine was overheated or if the story they're being told is entirely accurate.  So of course some people are going to be timid.

[Ashtonlg]

It has only overheated twice in my posession. The first time I pulled into a gas station as soon as I saw the gauge going up, waited for it to cool, then drove it to the advance auto. The second time was a few days ago - it began overheating on the highway so I had to pull over and wait. I started it up after a while and had to run it (while the temperature was going up) about 1 mile to the gas station. Those are the only times it was overheating in my posession. However, I have only owned the car several months.

[Ashtonlg]

My main question now is should I pay for the job or use that money to trade it in?

[mikec03]

I think the guy from the repair shop is really saying that he doesn't know what abuse the car has suffered over the last 130K so he doesn't want to touch it.  Your use of the "blue devil" doesn't inspire confidence.  He could replace the HG's and then have a bearing fail 6 months later.   You might think he was responsible for the bearing failure.

 

It's a tough choice for you.  If you could do it yourself, then of course do it.  If you have to pay for it, you can't justify paying  much.

 

I have a 02 subaru which I bought new that I had the HGs replaced at 90K two years ago.  If it starts leaking again, I will let it leak until I can't stand it and then junk it.  This  is an external leak so it's not the same, but its analogous to your situation.

[idosubaru]

This is a gray area because of the unknowns, there is no black and white statistically speaking because no one knows the condition of the rod and main bearings, clyinder liners, heads, etc. And there's no way to assess that without a complete engine tear down and thousands of dollars of labor - simply not cost effective.

 

The only quantitative thing you could do is have an engine oil analysis done to see if there's significant bearing material in there, but few people ever do that and it's only indicative of what happened since the last oil change.

 

So - knowing that it's gray you'll get varying opinions, here's what I would suggest:

 

If I thought it was sold *because* of the headgasket issue - i'd be more tempted to move on from that engine (get a new engine/vehicle). You have no idea how much it was previously overheated or if they dumped some kind of sealer in there to try and sell the vehicle when it first started showing symptoms, etc.

 

Sounds to me like the car has a chance of having been sold with known headgasket issues - the overheating happened soon after you bought it.  I'd be a little hesitant and would move on from that engine. 

 

If I thought the headgaskets failed on my watch, it's worth considering replacing them.

[willwright]

If your decent with tools at all , the head gaskets aren't that hard at all IMHO. I did a full rebuild on my 03 obw 2.5 sohc. I did have a problem because machine shop convinced me to order their head gasket kit ( huge mistake) and they were not the updated mls gaskets so 17k miles later I just redid them again . Start to finish took me 6 hrs. Full rebuild I did myself foe 1400 bucks. Included crank turned , cylinders honed, head resurfaces and full valve job, new rings and whole nine yards. These little motors really isn't much to them but are a little picky ( low tolerances) but if you take your time and attention to detail you could have a motor that will last you many many more miles.

[Gloyale]

 

" I was just talking to a guy from one of the repair shops around here and he said at 130,000 miles the job could damage my engine and he wouldnt want to be responsible for that so he wouldnt want to do the job. "

 

 

That guy is full of crap.......repairing the headgasket will not damage anything else.

 

He's afraid it will leak again......

 

which, if it's not done right with the correct gaskets it could.....but done right it won't.