Subaruist Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I need a clutch job, and I am not in a position to do it myself, especially on my 183 EA81 Brat, that means paying a mechanic to do so, and that is not cheap. Eventually, I would have to do it again too. My Brat is destined to be "Street", not off-road, and I do not anticipate or want to haul any trailer of any real weight if at all. I am thinking that for what it would cost me to have the clutch replaced, I could maybe just get an automatic transmission, I would kinda like one anyway, I think I could put it in with less work than doing the clutch myself, making it more likely that I could do it myself, and I would never have to replace the clutch again. What are the Pro's and Con's of this? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Pros: less knee fatigue Cons: there is no automatic transmission that bolts into your brat that doesn't sorta suck. If you only want 3 gears and a mpg hit and a 3800 rpm highway cruise at 65, then go for it. Otherwise, stick in a new clutch. Also, properly driven a clutch should last you hundreds of thousands of miles. There's no reason you should have to replace it again unless you own the thing for another... Many many years, or you burn it up prematurely. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch de la Brat Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Pulling an EA81 is super easy and fast with an engine hoist of some sort. Not to mention its more work to put an Auto in than to drop in a new clutch. Also, have you checked your clutch cable adjustment? It may just need to be readjusted. Twitch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR_Loyale Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 An automatic transmission is no cakewalk to install either. Usually you have to bolt up the torque converter to the engine through a small access window and then rotate the crank to reach each of the bolts. AT also typically are plumbed into the radiator so that is another potential point of failure for the cooling system. AT are more complex than the manual transmission from a maintenance point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonist Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 If you're talking to your mechanic about this, make sure you tell him to pull the engine to change the clutch, not the trans. It's much easier & most mechanics are just thinking for normal cars & don't get this. If he doesn't believe you, then describe this: engine removal (99% of which is done from above without a hoist needed): unplug electrical connections unplug fuel lines "unplug" throttle cable remove radiator unbolt A/C compressor & move to the side (if you have one) unbolt power steer pump & move to the side (if you have one) unbolt exhaust from engine unbolt engine stay above trans undo engine mounts from crossmember undo 4 engine to trans bolts pull engine up as opposed trans removal (99% of which is done from underneath & requires heavy lifting jacks & hoist/ramps & still requires you to work on the clutch from underneath): undo clutch cable undo speedo cable undo electrical connections remove exhaust remove tailshaft undo front lower ball joints/LCAs remove front driveshafts from trans unbolt both shifter linkages remove crossmembers unbolt engine stay above trans undo 4 engine to trans bolts lower heavy trans down & drag it out of the way Anyone who's done this job before at home wil know that the entire clutch replacement can be done in as little as 3 hours with hand tools by pulling the engine, but with the added advantage of great access to the flywheel for power/air tools at chest height if wanted. 3AT are garbage IMHO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobiedubie Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Clutch transmissions last forever with new clutch plates and throwout bearing installed from time to time. Auto transmissions are toast after 150,000+ miles and require major $ to fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaruist Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 OMG... It's a nightmare! Because I know you are all right! lol.... I was really feeling good about getting an Automatic transmission too.... The thing I don;t understand is assuming I can jack/lift/hoist the Brat sufficiently, why in the world would it be easier to pull the engine ?!? I see the very informative replies above, and than you, but seriously... If I take the trans out instead, there is very little to unhook, it would be very straight-forward. I would think that the only issue would be getting the clearance to do it (Lifting the Brat). I work part-time as a Courier/Delivery guy, and my life is pretty much on the road and in parking lots, restaurants, etc. - I really don't have the space for an engine hoist, and hate renting such things. - Yes, I also face challenges with lifting the whole Brat instead, but it does seem simpler. My other concern is that I amused to 1st Generation Brats, where you had ONE (Pilot) Bearing,and according to the kits I have seen, there seems to be like 4-5 bearings that would need to be replaced, and I would probably need one or more special tools to do install them. There are few jobs I don't like like on a Brat: Electrical, Transmission, Engine rebuild. - And yes, I musty also admit that a clutch job, etc is probably easier on a Subaru Brat than most other vehicles made. It seems the only option is to go broke paying to have it done. - and there is the other option not mentioned yet, and that is how people rave about the 5 speed manual trannies. If I have to do it myself, I may as well see if I can get a 5 speed and do it right -right? As Dr. Zachary Smith would say: "Oh.... the pain..." lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 If you're talking to your mechanic about this, make sure you tell him to pull the engine to change the clutch, not the trans. It's much easier & most mechanics are just thinking for normal cars & don't get this. If he doesn't believe you, then describe this: engine removal (99% of which is done from above without a hoist needed): unplug electrical connections unplug fuel lines "unplug" throttle cable remove radiator unbolt A/C compressor & move to the side (if you have one) unbolt power steer pump & move to the side (if you have one) unbolt exhaust from engine unbolt engine stay above trans undo engine mounts from crossmember undo 4 engine to trans bolts pull engine up as opposed trans removal (99% of which is done from underneath & requires heavy lifting jacks & hoist/ramps & still requires you to work on the clutch from underneath): undo clutch cable undo speedo cable undo electrical connections remove exhaust remove tailshaft undo front lower ball joints/LCAs remove front driveshafts from trans unbolt both shifter linkages remove crossmembers unbolt engine stay above trans undo 4 engine to trans bolts lower heavy trans down & drag it out of the way Anyone who's done this job before at home wil know that the entire clutch replacement can be done in as little as 3 hours with hand tools by pulling the engine, but with the added advantage of great access to the flywheel for power/air tools at chest height if wanted. 3AT are garbage IMHO You do not need to remove the control arm to drop the trans out the bottom. Just pop the roll pins.......and while you are sliding the trans back after about 2" the axles have enough room to pop off. The way I do a clutch in these is to seperate the trans mounts......so the tranny can slide back leaving the crossmember in place.......I slide the tranny back about 6" total and that is enough room to get in to the clutch PP bolts. 2 hours tops........no need for tranny jack or special tools other than clutch pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonist Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Have you lifted either a manual or even heavier auto trans? While it looks like there's more to remove off the engine to get it out, they are all a heck of a lot easier with access & not either lying on your back or bending above your head. And while you can simply drop the trans on the ground, you need to lift it up to reinstall it. Try benchpressing 60kg, assuming you can get it up onto your chest in the first place, & then you need to line up the input shaft spline onto the clutch. This can be a pain no matter what, but more so when you're holding something up, not have it hanging off a hoist. An EA81 can be lifted by one strong person. 2 people can lift it out of the bay. Done it on the side of a road when the rear main crank seal blew. But a beam/tree branch with a thick rope is enough. BTW, if you lift up the car, you still need to support it on stands, not just by the wheels, because the front LCAs need to be moved to get the driveshafts out of the trans, so those get in the way. The engine is heaps easier because you're working from on top, the access is infinitely better, and the working height is also easier (ie not lying on your back under a car that's accumulated 30 years of gunk) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonist Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Don't forget to replace the rear main crank seal while you're doing this work. Pain to have to do it later again to save the small cost of a seal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonist Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Gloyale, probably true about the LCAs. Just easier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 And while you can simply drop the trans on the ground, you need to lift it up to reinstall it. Try benchpressing 60kg, assuming you can get it up onto your chest in the first place, & then you need to line up the input shaft spline onto the clutch. This can be a pain no matter what, but more so when you're holding something up, not have it hanging off a hoist. You do not need to lower the trans to the ground.......Simply slide it back few inches.........leave the crossmember there so it can rest on it and support the front diff portion with a floorjack. And it's not probably...it's COMPLETELY true you do not need to undo the LCA.....that would be more work.....how is that easier??? Bottom line if you want to undo the fewest bolts, and not worry about losing Coolant or disconnecting fuel lines, power steering pump, Alternator wiring, etc...... You pull the trans.......back......not all the way out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch de la Brat Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/110244-clutch-servicing-without-removal-of-the-transmission/ Here's my little write-up on how to change a clutch without removal of the entire engine or transmission. I did this on an EA82, but the principle is the same on an EA81 or EA71. Now, I highly suggest having the flywheel resurfaced before you plunk a new clutch on it. Most new clutches require you to do that to maintain warranty and it only makes sense to allow two fresh surfaces to wear into each other. Best wishes on this repair! Twitch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angerthis Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 or you can hall it up to WA and ill do the clutch job for $200 cash you by the parts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 pulling the transmission is by far easier in terms of number of bolts/parts. (in the northeast rusty exhaust is more annoying this way though). as said - the trans is "right there, with a few ancillary items and the engine is nearly covered in stuff that has to come off. but it can be far more annoying doing it from under the car. dirt, rust, scale in your eyes, not much room to work, working on your back, less light, gotta crawl under and out every time you forget/need/drop a tool and it rolls down the driveway. so a lot depends on where you're working, how big you are, experience, etc. if you can tolerate that stuff, pulling the trans is ultimately easier. or you can hall it up to WA and ill do the clutch job for $200 cash you by the parts or you can hall it up to WA and ill do the clutch job for $200 cash you by the parts there you go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferp420 Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 when i did my ea81 clutch about 10 years ago i just reached in and grabed the motor set it off to the side and did the clutch just a simple socket set no hoist no jack stands no laying in the dirt the hardest part was finding the right pilot bearing i do use the cherry picker for the ea82s and ej2.2/2.5s more because im geting old and my back dosent like lifting motors anymore if i remeber the ea81 will just sit in the engine bay kinda sideways and give you more than enuff room to work on the clutch with out disconecting the wire or fuel lines or accesories still have to pull the radiator and drop the exaust though if your carfull with the oil pan u can use a floor jack to lift and move the motor around kinda like a vw but then again trannys are easy enuff to r and r ether way a hell of alot cheaper and less labor intensive than swaping to a auto you would need a few.more parts than just a trans and even at pick and pull the parts would get pricy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaruist Posted August 15, 2014 Author Share Posted August 15, 2014 (A) Yes, i have lifted - and thrown one of these transmissions once, when I was real angry about something - and it didn't hurt the tranny either,lol... ( I am SO relieved to see all the positive feedback about how to remove the transmission instead of the engine!!! I have very limiting circumstances, so a cherry picker would be out of the question anyway. What I am considering is finding a tree and using a come-a-long hooked onto the front crash bar (I have the solidly mounted kind) and lifting the whole front end of the Brat up a little bit. As far as lifting the transmission into place, I have a 6 ton bottle jack and some blocks and such, and will probably use that to lift/hold the weight, and use elbow grease to maneuver it. As I seem to remember doing such once n the past for some reason or purpose. I may even be able to rig something to bolt to the tranny and attach to the jack for a firm grip/attachment. Now it is a matter of seeing if I can afford/find one of those raved-about 5 speed transmissions before I commit to getting the parts. If I can, I may as well do it all right at one time. © Thank you, thank you, thank you for all the tips, instructions, etc posted here!!! EXTREMELY informative and helpful !!! Unfortunately, something else has come up that must be done first.... I thought it was about time to replace the front brake pads, and was getting estimates and considering if I should just do it myself. I heard that tell-tale sound the brakes make to let you know the pads had worn to that point a couple days ago,- but in the last 24-48 hours it turned into something else, and it seems that my front right wheel bearing is suddenly disintegrating and must be dealt with immediately, - just so I don;t have to see my wheel rolling down the street head of me, which did happen to me once, lol... Thanks again guys ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaruist Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 I have to ask, specifically, why are 5 speed transmissions so loved? I HATE 1st gear in my 4 speed, and wich I couldjust start off in 2nd and never even use 1st. With a 5 speed, you would have to go through 5 gears to get past 60 mphinstead of 4. I would guess that 1st gear might not be any better for me in a 5 speed than with my 4 speed. Somebody edjicate me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykeys Toy Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I have to ask, specifically, why are 5 speed transmissions so loved? I HATE 1st gear in my 4 speed, and wich I couldjust start off in 2nd and never even use 1st. With a 5 speed, you would have to go through 5 gears to get past 60 mphinstead of 4. I would guess that 1st gear might not be any better for me in a 5 speed than with my 4 speed. Somebody edjicate me? They are geared better. More like every other manual on the road. In the Gen 2 cars (not all but most) the first three gears are very long and 4th is just barely overdrive according to General Disorders write up. I have never had a 5spd dual range but from the way my friends drive it is geared just like my sedan which is a 2wd . I can hit 60 in third gear. Granted I do not have all the weight of a 4wd car so that may have something to do with it. I cruise at 2800rpms in 5th doing 65-70. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch de la Brat Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 After having a 5 speed in my BRAT, I must say having the extra-large clutch and the passing gear was great. Made freeway travel much nicer and the shorter shift points were much quicker that the sloppy old 4 speed. Another benefit was the increased strength of the transmission (no blowing out 1st or 3rd gear) and a lower low range. The ratios matched the EA81's power band even better than the original 4 speed. Not having to rev out the engine to get moving fast enough to make top gear usable was convenient. So, the 5 speed is an all around upgrade and not too terribly difficult to find or install. Twitch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaruist Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 (edited) I just had a thought... Next major priority is getting this clutch thing done. However, the general price for doing it has been guessed at by a Subaru-worthy machanic as being $400 - $500. That is a lot of money. Where I live, I cannot doextensive or extended work on my vehicle(s), and before even thinking seriously about doing it myself, I need to have a plan that makes it fairly quick, with as little tear-apart or complication as possible and with a surety that it will go and work out as hoped. I know this has been more or less covered in this thread, but I have to be sure before comitting to doing it... I have an idea - I once did an emergency clutch job on a1st gen Brat by simply unbolting the engine, and moving it forward just enough to get the parts in and out, without changing the pilot bearing. Not supposed to do it that way I know, it was in a real pinch. What I am thinking is if it is possible to (#1) Unbolt the engine and move it forward, and unbolt the transmission and move it back just a little, without detaching the drive shaft, or removing the transmission. (Last I knew, detaching the drive shaft meant transmission gear oil coming out the back of the transmission) Removing the radiator to make a little more space would not be a problem. In the end, The only way I can realistically do this myself is by doing this without actually removing the engine or transmission. Even IF I can do that, the big problem is the bearings - removing the old ones, and installing the new ones. I imagine I would need some special tool to remove them at the very least.The alternative, is the gamble of not changing the bearings at all. - that is even if this can be done without actually removing the engine or transmission in the first place I also would have to do it before it gets.too cold too, lol... Won't I need a specialtool to remove/install the bearings, especially considering that I will be working in a tight space and maybe at an odd angle? I must assume there may be a complication,like the bearings do not want to come out easily... Any insights on this unorthodox idea? Edited November 3, 2014 by Subaruist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaruist Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 when i did my ea81 clutch about 10 years ago i just reached in and grabed the motor set it off to the side and did the clutch just a simple socket set no hoist no jack stands no laying in the dirt the hardest part was finding the right pilot bearing i do use the cherry picker for the ea82s and ej2.2/2.5s more because im geting old and my back dosent like lifting motors anymore if i remeber the ea81 will just sit in the engine bay kinda sideways and give you more than enuff room to work on the clutch with out disconecting the wire or fuel lines or accesories still have to pull the radiator and drop the exaust though if your carfull with the oil pan u can use a floor jack to lift and move the motor around kinda like a vw but then again trannys are easy enuff to r and r ether way a hell of alot cheaper and less labor intensive than swaping to a auto you would need a few.more parts than just a trans and even at pick and pull the parts would get pricy "if i remeber the ea81 will just sit in the engine bay kinda sideways and give you more than enuff room to work on the clutch with out disconecting the wire or fuel lines or accesories still have to pull the radiator and drop the exaust though" -Seriously? t does not look like enough roomto sit the engine sideways... hmmm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaruist Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/110244-clutch-servicing-without-removal-of-the-transmission/ Here's my little write-up on how to change a clutch without removal of the entire engine or transmission. I did this on an EA82, but the principle is the same on an EA81 or EA71. Now, I highly suggest having the flywheel resurfaced before you plunk a new clutch on it. Most new clutches require you to do that to maintain warranty and it only makes sense to allow two fresh surfaces to wear into each other. Best wishes on this repair! Twitch My problem is that this must be a somewhat covert repair, Where I live I cannot do extensive or extended repairs, and having the Brat up on jack stands would be more than gambling. Your explanation makes a lot of sense, seems quite sensible, simple and doable, but Having it on jacks is almost a no-go, and I do not have another location to do it at. Refer to my recent post below... To modify your method, could I do it without detaching the tranny cross-member, but detaching the drive shaft from the rear, etc. and just unbolt the tranny from the cross member and slide it back on that cross member a little way? I need to explore every option... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaruist Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 You do not need to lower the trans to the ground.......Simply slide it back few inches.........leave the crossmember there so it can rest on it and support the front diff portion with a floorjack. And it's not probably...it's COMPLETELY true you do not need to undo the LCA.....that would be more work.....how is that easier??? Bottom line if you want to undo the fewest bolts, and not worry about losing Coolant or disconnecting fuel lines, power steering pump, Alternator wiring, etc...... You pull the trans.......back......not all the way out. I can remove the radiator, thatis not too big a deal,it would notlook too serious from a casualby-stander's view if I simply have the radiator out of sight. (See my recent post above for why that matters) So how far can I slide the tranny back without detatching the tranny crossmember anyway? Removing/installing the bearings is my greatest concern... Don't I need a specialtoolto do so, especially if I amworking on it in a tight space and at an angle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaruist Posted November 7, 2014 Author Share Posted November 7, 2014 I just had a horrible thought today on the way back from work... Is there not a seal where that soindle/spine forthe clutch/tranny comes out of the engine??? Is it not possible that the problem is noot actually my clutch, but that there is some oil in the clutch causing it to slip ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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